What happened: Remington used to be top drawer now they are junk it can't be just the labor cost, I've also seen this quality slide in Ruger and Winchester
Remington quality
- Thread starter Gryntch
- Start date
Are you relating experience with the newer RemArms rifles or one of the Remingtons produced in the years that they were spasming through bankruptcy and takeover? Also, " Remington used to be top drawer now they are junk...." is a rather broad condemnation of an entire brand. May we assume that assertion is based on multiple examples of rifles produced since RemArms began manufacture or just one example? It may sound like it, but I`m not really trying to start an argument, but such broad statements about most any brand of pretty much any product interests me.
I still kick myself in the ass for selling my last remy 700 in 308 varmint.
It was a real shooter and a really smooth action with no mods done to it other than adding a Badger bolt knòb and Jewell trigger.
If I would have just added a Bartlien or Krieger barrel I don't think I would have ever let it go.
The kelbly actions I'm using now I love but a good rem 700 is more than adequate and then some when someone like Tac Ops turns them into a work of art.
If they weren't a good or great starting point I don't think they would use them.
It was a real shooter and a really smooth action with no mods done to it other than adding a Badger bolt knòb and Jewell trigger.
If I would have just added a Bartlien or Krieger barrel I don't think I would have ever let it go.
The kelbly actions I'm using now I love but a good rem 700 is more than adequate and then some when someone like Tac Ops turns them into a work of art.
If they weren't a good or great starting point I don't think they would use them.
I haven't bought a Remington M700 action for a few years, but all the RR prefix bare receivers I bought from Zanders were pretty darned good when it comes to how true they were, out of the box. On average, when set up in my action truing fixture & checked with dial & test indicators, they were quite a bit better than any of the older actions I'd trued & used in builds over the years. I've had factory bolts that had issues with the stamped extractors that gave me problems, to the point where I started just buying bare receivers and pairing them with PTG custom 1pc bolts with mini-16 extractors. Yeah, I know - PTG can be somewhat of a nightmare to deal with, depending on what you're buying from them - I get that. But I had good luck getting custom bolts that worked & shot really well with that mini-16 extractor.
Our world has changed. Our culture has changed. It's not just Remington. It is all things, worldwide, that are mechanical.
I have had some expensive items that gave me issues. The supplier gave me my money back. I asked for a return shipping label. I was told to just discard the item locally. They did not want it back.
The mechanical ability of an American has diminished. A child is handed an IPhone and from that point they build their world around "devices". Many of the older guy's here grew up in Dad's workshop or on Grandpa's farm and helped refurbish equipment during the winter months out in the barn.
Feeding and extraction are one of the simplest and oldest functions of modern firearms. An American fighting in WW1 could get his weapon back in the fight while in the field. Today a malfunction and the weapon goes to an armorer.
The same can be said for tools used in the construction industry. A craftsman can be fired for disassembling a simple tool, like a pipe threading machine, to solve a minor issue.
The world has changed.
I have had some expensive items that gave me issues. The supplier gave me my money back. I asked for a return shipping label. I was told to just discard the item locally. They did not want it back.
The mechanical ability of an American has diminished. A child is handed an IPhone and from that point they build their world around "devices". Many of the older guy's here grew up in Dad's workshop or on Grandpa's farm and helped refurbish equipment during the winter months out in the barn.
Feeding and extraction are one of the simplest and oldest functions of modern firearms. An American fighting in WW1 could get his weapon back in the fight while in the field. Today a malfunction and the weapon goes to an armorer.
The same can be said for tools used in the construction industry. A craftsman can be fired for disassembling a simple tool, like a pipe threading machine, to solve a minor issue.
The world has changed.
Remington was raped by their private equity scum bag owners with zero investment in tooling or equipment which was worn out.
All the new rem arms built 700s I’ve handled seem really well made. Alpha one had caught my attention, if only I could actually find one.
Sorry didn't mean to start a s**t storm I agree the world has changed and not for the better
Pretty much it in a nutshell. Should be a case study in business school in how to destroy an iconic manufacturing firm and brand.
You didn't start anything brother as it's been hashed out many times before.
Remington is just one of many examples/victims of the corporate greed and dipshits with no real world experience at the hands of over educated morons.
One of the phrases I have used most in my lifetime performing duties as a service tech/mechanic is the best mechanical engineers I ever worked with were mechanics first.
Because they already understood what would work and not just how to stuff 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag on a CAD program.
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I would be curious to know if anyone is or has been shooting one of the newer 700 Long Range guns, especially in 6.5 Creedmoor and what their experience has been. I`ve been evaluating options for a 1K range rifle, recreation only ( no competition ) and haven`t as yet looked into the new 700s.
It has happened in every sector.
Seen a few go for stupid prices on GunJoker.
The 'gun writers' were shilling them before Rem went broke the last time. Wonder if Rem Arms inherited a load of parts, built them and shipped them out, but decided not to go ahead as the market reception has been... ?
I just purchased a new Rem 700 ADL for $540, for the 700 magnum action.
Though I'd shoot it first to see how the new 700s were before taking the action off the barrel.
I put it in an aluminum chassis to give it a chance and loaded 200 SMK to fit the new detachable mags at 3.7"
It was very accurate 5 shots came in at .5" 3 shots 1/4". For the factory barreled action, and handloads...the first I tried.
No malfunctions, no problems with the new 700 I purchased.
Then I ran the piss out of it with hot loads...to see what the 300WM was capable of with match bullets 3280 fps was top for the 200 SMK but too hot.
2964 fps was top and usable load for 230 gr SMK in that rifle with the powders tried.
Then tore the action off the factory barrel, for another project.
That's my experience with the new Remington 700.
Though I'd shoot it first to see how the new 700s were before taking the action off the barrel.
I put it in an aluminum chassis to give it a chance and loaded 200 SMK to fit the new detachable mags at 3.7"
It was very accurate 5 shots came in at .5" 3 shots 1/4". For the factory barreled action, and handloads...the first I tried.
No malfunctions, no problems with the new 700 I purchased.
Then I ran the piss out of it with hot loads...to see what the 300WM was capable of with match bullets 3280 fps was top for the 200 SMK but too hot.
2964 fps was top and usable load for 230 gr SMK in that rifle with the powders tried.
Then tore the action off the factory barrel, for another project.
That's my experience with the new Remington 700.
Just another lawyer now but was once an army sniper.
Maybe someday he can become a human, that's a military joke for you crayon eaters.
I been in machining and manufacturing a long time.
Today, everyone has CNC machines, and computerized inspection.
Rifle work is not nearly as precise as many other projects in manufacturing.
Holding one thousandths tolerence is child's play.
Holding 5 ten thousandths total tolerance on 1.375 million parts is not difficult, with the right personal, machined in 19 seconds, with excellent finishes, on the right computerized machine tools.
When competing world wide in manufacturing as many companies do today.
No fitting or gunsmithing talents are needed...all CNC parts are exacting as far as rifle work goes.
So Remington can purchase quality CNC machines, which are relatively cheap today, when talking the amount invested by large companies. So their actions can be equal to or better than any custom action out there....if they chose to.
It's just how it is, today.
Notice the cheapened stocks, and sinister metal parts, investment casting, rough finishes, etc on many of todays products to lessen cost.
15 yrs ago before retiring, our company had a million dollar Mazak line, complete with robot loader, bar coded tooling, 240 tools at its disposal, auto and computerized everything from chip removal, to checking every tool inserted in the spindle for wear or broken... where the computer grabs the next new tool for that cutting parameter and retires the old one.
Self running all night long and able to change parts on its own if a job was completed and on to the next job...no humans needed.
It does not make mistakes.
The machines started coming out with their own voices to talk to the operator, about programming, or cautions...would you like that voice male or female?
With high overhead more time is more money.
Humans are less involved.
The old days of fitting parts with a file has disappeared.
When I wear out 2 CNC mills, the company was happy to buy me two more, about 5 yrs 10 to 14 hrs per day, making about $32 to $53 every minute...not per hr, ...world wide competition is ferocious, you are expendable, your job is up for bid to anyone who can do it better, at any time.
No company, but very a small shop, would consider to start with old or heavily used machine tools and expect to compete... the cost would be too high, as new time saving software and development in machine tool technology, & tool geometry jumps up every few yrs, to cut cycle times, and improve companies bottom lines.
You will lose the contract if you don't keep up...cause every one wants the money on the table.
Just the facts.
Today, everyone has CNC machines, and computerized inspection.
Rifle work is not nearly as precise as many other projects in manufacturing.
Holding one thousandths tolerence is child's play.
Holding 5 ten thousandths total tolerance on 1.375 million parts is not difficult, with the right personal, machined in 19 seconds, with excellent finishes, on the right computerized machine tools.
When competing world wide in manufacturing as many companies do today.
No fitting or gunsmithing talents are needed...all CNC parts are exacting as far as rifle work goes.
So Remington can purchase quality CNC machines, which are relatively cheap today, when talking the amount invested by large companies. So their actions can be equal to or better than any custom action out there....if they chose to.
It's just how it is, today.
Notice the cheapened stocks, and sinister metal parts, investment casting, rough finishes, etc on many of todays products to lessen cost.
15 yrs ago before retiring, our company had a million dollar Mazak line, complete with robot loader, bar coded tooling, 240 tools at its disposal, auto and computerized everything from chip removal, to checking every tool inserted in the spindle for wear or broken... where the computer grabs the next new tool for that cutting parameter and retires the old one.
Self running all night long and able to change parts on its own if a job was completed and on to the next job...no humans needed.
It does not make mistakes.
The machines started coming out with their own voices to talk to the operator, about programming, or cautions...would you like that voice male or female?
With high overhead more time is more money.
Humans are less involved.
The old days of fitting parts with a file has disappeared.
When I wear out 2 CNC mills, the company was happy to buy me two more, about 5 yrs 10 to 14 hrs per day, making about $32 to $53 every minute...not per hr, ...world wide competition is ferocious, you are expendable, your job is up for bid to anyone who can do it better, at any time.
No company, but very a small shop, would consider to start with old or heavily used machine tools and expect to compete... the cost would be too high, as new time saving software and development in machine tool technology, & tool geometry jumps up every few yrs, to cut cycle times, and improve companies bottom lines.
You will lose the contract if you don't keep up...cause every one wants the money on the table.
Just the facts.
Did you do any other metrics like before and after for lug setback running that high on pressure ?
Back in the 90s, I worked for a short time at a company where we tuned and modified two communications equipment. From handheld radios to mobile units, to base stations, including one model that DTMF capability.
Anyway, at first, with a defective unit, they would heat up the board and drop off all the components and chips and test the current and signal pathways of the PCB. But that ended being a waste of time most times. It was cheaper to discard the old radio and get credited replacements.
For some companies, it just wouldn't pay. For example, if you have been to a Bed, Bath, and Beyond or the Gap, you would see the staff with radios on their belts. The Motorola SP-10 and SP-11s, around the 154 MHz range. Motorola had a 3 percent failure rate worldwide, which was considered acceptable, And still, it was cheaper to discard than to repair.
I have a feeling it is the same for mass produced rifles.
I often wonder what percent of new rifles are never test fired by the purchaser but simply locked away in the gun safe. With the thought of when things get really bad they will pull them out and use that weapon to protect their home and family.
I'm going to be that annoying dude....
I own 13 Remington 700s and used to own 3 more. In all of those, most are the dreaded RR receivers. I've had 2 that were a problem;
1st was the pin hole for one of the trigger retention pills was drilled too wide and needed to be soldered and re-drilled as the pin would fall out during firing.
2nd is trigger related as well on a different action where in the trigger sits a little high so there's a bit of friction as the bolt is closed. Its nothing major and I still use it.
Not exactly major issues....
I genuinely believe there WERE some problems with Remington but they were isolated to a small (relatively) batch and the internet did it's thing.
We had an ADL Tac 308 that we were planning on doing an M40A6 build off. Don't know why but we got into the habit of shooting the guns to see accuracy before ripping the barrels off. This gun put 5 rounds through the same hole with factory Winchester Match 175gr ammo.
It would've been a crime to pull the barrel off so we sold the barrelled action to a mate and he's still using it as his comp gun nearly 5 years later. The thing shreds.
The complaints that Remington deserved are their lack of innovation and, IMO, charging too much for what they are;
The old triggers were dog shit
The bolt handles were dated
The accessories and options that come from factory were dated (Bergara did Remington700s better than Remington did)
The twist rates in the barrels were dated.
Remington just did not want to innovate. You can get a Tikka CTR with a 10 Round Mag, threaded, with a great trigger and at least SOME adjustability in the stock for cheaper than the same thing from Remington costs, and you get a more refined product over all. Same thing with the Bergara HMR which is, IMO the absolute best priced option available for a great starter precision rifle.
And i think there's the real complaint with Remington and why they died. They never left the 90s and shooters moved on. Their new guns are great. But realistically, the only thing you get that's different is probably some more refinement in the machining (speculating) and a better trigger in the Timney. They didn't get cheaper, they didn't update their design, and you still can't buy a gun off the shelf that competes with the CTR or the HMR, from Remington.
They got new owners, but they STILL use hogue stocks on their budget line. They STILL use HS precision with their flootplate on their upper class models, you don't even get a HS DBM kit. The only gun that equals what bergara and tikka are doing in Remingtons Catalogue, uses a magpul hunter stock. Magpul. In a world where Greyboe and MDT exist....
Remington just doesn't offer what the others do and the market has spoken.
I own 13 Remington 700s and used to own 3 more. In all of those, most are the dreaded RR receivers. I've had 2 that were a problem;
1st was the pin hole for one of the trigger retention pills was drilled too wide and needed to be soldered and re-drilled as the pin would fall out during firing.
2nd is trigger related as well on a different action where in the trigger sits a little high so there's a bit of friction as the bolt is closed. Its nothing major and I still use it.
Not exactly major issues....
I genuinely believe there WERE some problems with Remington but they were isolated to a small (relatively) batch and the internet did it's thing.
We had an ADL Tac 308 that we were planning on doing an M40A6 build off. Don't know why but we got into the habit of shooting the guns to see accuracy before ripping the barrels off. This gun put 5 rounds through the same hole with factory Winchester Match 175gr ammo.
It would've been a crime to pull the barrel off so we sold the barrelled action to a mate and he's still using it as his comp gun nearly 5 years later. The thing shreds.
The complaints that Remington deserved are their lack of innovation and, IMO, charging too much for what they are;
The old triggers were dog shit
The bolt handles were dated
The accessories and options that come from factory were dated (Bergara did Remington700s better than Remington did)
The twist rates in the barrels were dated.
Remington just did not want to innovate. You can get a Tikka CTR with a 10 Round Mag, threaded, with a great trigger and at least SOME adjustability in the stock for cheaper than the same thing from Remington costs, and you get a more refined product over all. Same thing with the Bergara HMR which is, IMO the absolute best priced option available for a great starter precision rifle.
And i think there's the real complaint with Remington and why they died. They never left the 90s and shooters moved on. Their new guns are great. But realistically, the only thing you get that's different is probably some more refinement in the machining (speculating) and a better trigger in the Timney. They didn't get cheaper, they didn't update their design, and you still can't buy a gun off the shelf that competes with the CTR or the HMR, from Remington.
They got new owners, but they STILL use hogue stocks on their budget line. They STILL use HS precision with their flootplate on their upper class models, you don't even get a HS DBM kit. The only gun that equals what bergara and tikka are doing in Remingtons Catalogue, uses a magpul hunter stock. Magpul. In a world where Greyboe and MDT exist....
Remington just doesn't offer what the others do and the market has spoken.
Nope, took the barrel off the action for another project. Pristine, No damage whatsoever...the pressure wasn't high enough for that...no primers were even blown, on standard brass cases, and QL used to help with pressure estimates...and only one case was considered over max, and went there on purpose, but primer intact.
A typical amateur question, for the process being done...or one who doesn't l ike the out come...always predictable here.
As explained if one sets his 300WM up correctly it will hang with most all the other 300 mags in velocity and accuracy. This was a $940 investment. But used the chassis and action on the intended initial project...so it's a free test.
I have checked Remington actions and Ruger PR after running very high pressures with hybrid cases, well above what brass cases will stand, no lug set back.
Attachments
So if you are telling the trusth...you supposedly had a faulty rifle and then sold that faulty rifle knowingly putting the fucks to someone ?
" Their new guns are great ". Is it safe to make an assumption that that statement is based on first hand experience and that at least a couple or so of that 13 700s you own are of the most current vintage? If that`s accurate, which current models of 700s do you own and shoot? Thanks.
IMO, it ain’t the action…it’s the hammer forged barrel on my Rem 700 (late model and before being sold off) that sucks.
I have owned no less than five Remington XP-100’s two were left stock, the other three completely customized. The Original four digit model was as nice as anything I have ever had my hands on, firearm related. The others, seemingly just about as nice. I have also owned a 660 rifle, Three 700’s and Brenda’s Beautiful 1974 541S. Heck, I used to own and wear remington branded shirts, jackets and hats. Remington was the bees knees.
Then, I purchased a 700 in 2008. It would seemingly take a book to describe just how bad it was. It was a beautiful looking rifle from a distance. It was The Worst Firearm I have ever handled, much less owned. Heck, I could take a pipe, a stick of wood an end cap and some duck tape and build a better rifle.
I swore off ever giving remington another penny for the rest of my life.
At the point in my life where I don’t need another hunting rifle and custom actions more than meet my needs. (Actually for myself, probably never need another one of those again either, but I still am using them). Still, while checking out a rather high end gun shop, the clerk told me I needed to look at one of the “new” Remingtons. While, I obviously did not load or fire it, handling it, working the bolt, etc, it was as nicely fitted and finished a rifle as Brenda’s m700 in .243 that we purchased in 1975.
So, I really can not justify another hunting rifle, If I wanted or needed a mid range hunting rifle, one of the “new” Rem Arms rifles would be a consideration.
Then, I purchased a 700 in 2008. It would seemingly take a book to describe just how bad it was. It was a beautiful looking rifle from a distance. It was The Worst Firearm I have ever handled, much less owned. Heck, I could take a pipe, a stick of wood an end cap and some duck tape and build a better rifle.
I swore off ever giving remington another penny for the rest of my life.
At the point in my life where I don’t need another hunting rifle and custom actions more than meet my needs. (Actually for myself, probably never need another one of those again either, but I still am using them). Still, while checking out a rather high end gun shop, the clerk told me I needed to look at one of the “new” Remingtons. While, I obviously did not load or fire it, handling it, working the bolt, etc, it was as nicely fitted and finished a rifle as Brenda’s m700 in .243 that we purchased in 1975.
So, I really can not justify another hunting rifle, If I wanted or needed a mid range hunting rifle, one of the “new” Rem Arms rifles would be a consideration.
You would have a very large number of companies to study between 1975 and 2024 if you were a good B-school teacher. The primary method of de-industrialization, following outright shuttering of factories, is the intentional vampiric mis-handling of company assets. Including the workers -- not just the machinery. Companies are taken over, bought, etc., with the intent of bleeding them dry.
Good to know...nice report. But again I come back to the barrel the quality of which can't be determined until its fired.
I hope the "new" Remington puts out great products and is successful. I'm just displeased with the barrel on my 2019 vintage 700.
Cheers
Just another lawyer now but was once an army sniper.
Maybe someday he can become a human, that's a military joke for you crayon eaters.
Former Remington VP, has previously alluded to running it into the ground...
Ah, I knew a bit about Mr. Cleckner. Shooting Sports Foundation, etc.
But I had no idea he worked for Remington. It doesn't show on his Linkedin profile. Thanks for the data.
Oh, if you want to see some very funny but also informative vids, check out Cleckner trying to coach John Lovell (warrior poet society) who is hilarious.
Cheers
Try Ryan's own page. Hiding in plain sight.
Also, as VP, he was in charge of compliance. That means he was more in tune with making sure the company followed the law, paid taxes, etc, rather than overseeing the actual operation on the production floor. So, not exactly the cause of the company's failure.
Oh...I never thought he had anything at all to do with Remington's decline.
By the by, I looked at his webpage and don't see any career history listed there.
And thanks....I do know he's a lawyer and never thought he ran engineering or production. I know what compliance job is about.
Thanks
The 300Win Mag is a very capable cartridge and underrated in my opinion I just never seen a need to push it beyond max.
My go to was with Nosler brass, H1000 and Nosler 200gn Accubond running just shy of 2900fps and was absolute poison for anything it was shot at.
Rural King had a magnum ADL (can't remember now whether it was .300 WM or 7 Mag) for just over $400 last week on sale.Fuck man you definitely drove it like you stole it
My dumb ass snoozed a couple of days too long and missed the deal...
No most of the ones I own are older RR gen receivers. There's a couple of random other ones in there as well but most are RR. The "new" Remingtons i've only had a little bit of hands on with. I don't own any as I haven't had a need at this point but we've had a few on the line from different shooters. They honestly don't feel any different to me, but the timney trigger is miles ahead of the x-mark and on the fluted stainless model, there were fewer chatter marks in the flutes. MOST of the Remingtons started as ADL Tac or BDL Varmints. We had a couple of 700Ps as well. One of which still is. Over the years, the only gun that is still stock is the 700P. All the rest have had new barrels put on, new stocks, etc etc but the barrel is always the last thing to be changed out because we've never had one that didn't shoot well. The one that our mate runs in comp is wearing a KRG bravo but still has the factory barrel and trigger (this xmark could actually be tuned to 1.5kgs)
This is the only pic I have ready;
Bottom is a Rem700 Varmint that became an XM-3
Next one up is a Sporter BDL that became the Mk13 Mod0
Then a Long Range whatever that came in the Bell and Carlson stock, upgraded to a custom 7mm Rem Mag
Varmint BDL that became the M40A5
ADL tac that became the M40a6
700P is still the 700P
M24 was built off a sporter weight 30-06
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Electronics, is not high end metal machining.
Mistakes are not allowed in refueling nuclear reactors, or areo/space.
Parts are inspected throughout the process, and final inspection, and signed off on each operation...any falsified signature, or knowingly shipping an out of print part is punishable by 10 yrs in prison. I know of one guy sentenced to just that served 6 yrs.
So to recieve a gold quality pin from Westinghouse Nuclear for example, not one scrap part is permitted to be recieved
All orders are received on time on schedule, including the 1.375 million end caps, and other products like guide tubes, guide rods, absorber rods.
All delivered on time, every part in print, plus emergency orders ASAP work until your done, a thousand parts in two days.
Precision combat machining.
You need the right team of hard, determined, always on the job, no whiners, schooled, precision machinist, many ex--military, no diversity hires, allowed, able to compete against the best the world has to offer.
We do not have that in America, but it once was.
We are soft, lazy, drugged, and easily defeated.
No dramas bud.
It's -2°C here this morning so i couldn't be bothered getting them all out to take a photo for you, but there's a few of the main ones there.
This is my competition gun. Started as a Rem 700 ADL TAC but was bought second hand. I had the bolt knob fitted, bolt fluted and a new barrel installed. This was bought for the action only and I had the gun sent straight to the Smith for the work to be done so I guess i can't really say that this one was a shooter.... but it is now.
Built it in honour of my dog. Army life was hard and when I went deep into a dark pit, she came along and pulled me out and everything got better in my life after her.
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These are not beyond max operating pressure except for one, but are loaded out to way over COAL for the standard 300 WM length...going from 3.4" to 3.7" or 3.85" with an aluminum chassis and detachable mags for those chassis, ...really increases the case capacity of your 300 Win Mag. So slower powders can be utilized with the heavier bullets resulting in much higher velocities with similar pressures.
It's just available, your choice to do that or not.
The 300WM is a fine hunting cartridge in its original form, for standard weight hunting rifles in original stocks.
But Sierra was running their old 240 SMK in long COAL form, with load data like 35 or 40 yrs ago...get an old Sierra load manual there is load data for doing so, with velocities better then many 300 PRC loads today.
This is nothing new, neither are the PRC or Nosler lines...it's all been done before, with almost identical cartridges, some better.. Lazzeroni, Dakota Arms mags, Arnold Arms mags, Canadian Industries Ltd, plus a host of 1000 yd competition gunsmiths if the day, making similar or almost the exact cartridges called new.
I use QL as a guide, to have an idea when pressure is pushing the envelope, plus old published data. New and better powders are available today, but no new cartridge cases. Even the hybrid case was used yrs ago but the new hybrid design is better.
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