Reputable Names for innovative BCG's, Firing pins, Buffer Springs, and Gas Systems

LilGucci

LilGucci

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Oct 7, 2019
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#1
I'm doing a bunch of different AR-10 and AR-15 builds, and while looking over my parts list, I've noticed that the majority of my parts are JP Enterprise or VSeven/2A parts.

I was wondering if you guys could list off your top 3 manufacturers for each of the following four areas so that I can expand my parts list beyond just JP:

  • 1.) Bolt Carrier Groups
  • 2.) Firing Pins
  • 3.) Buffer Springs
  • 4.) Gas Systems

I'm looking for innovative parts, maybe it's made a certain way or coated in a certain coating that you feel makes their offerings superior to much of the rest of the market.

My priorities are:

  • Reliability,
  • Durability,
  • Weight,
  • Innovation,
  • Value
(In that order)

My gas systems are from SLR Rifleworks or whatever comes with whatever barrel I go with, while most of the rest of my stuff comes from JP. Outside of those 4 areas, I'm using 2A and VSeven parts everywhere else.
 
#3
Ravenworks said:
Toolcraft
Click to expand...
Wow, thank you! I had never heard of them before but this will go well with my PDW builds, which will hopefully look like this:
 

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#5
XLR308 said:
The times I have ventured out of the normal Milspec carriers and bolts has been JP and the NP3 plated LMT carrier and bolt Wilson Combat uses.
The JP LMOS system is the best I have tried so far when properly tuned.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that tip. I hope to some day own an LMT, amongst many other rifles. Unfortunately, LMT doesn't have much of a description of their BCG on their website but it is pretty pricey so I'll research it and hopefully find out more of it online.

The Wilson Combat seems very attractive too. The LMOS from JP is most likely going to be the BCG in my Vseven2A light-weight build, but the Wilson Combat and LMT are great second and third choices for my 3 other builds.
 
#6
LilGucci said:
Thank you for that tip. I hope to some day own an LMT, amongst many other rifles. Unfortunately, LMT doesn't have much of a description of their BCG on their website but it is pretty pricey so I'll research it and hopefully find out more of it online.

The Wilson Combat seems very attractive too. The LMOS from JP is most likely going to be the BCG in my Vseven2A light-weight build, but the Wilson Combat and LMT are great second and third choices for my 3 other builds.
Click to expand...

Not sure there is really much if any difference in the LMT carrier than the Toolcraft that was suggested but I can say the bolt is different than any others I have or have seen.
It has a lobstertail extractor with two instead of one spring in it and the lug geometry is different as well.
 
#7
Gemtech/bootleg venting carriers both work very well if shooting suppressed.

Young’s Mfg makes very nice carriers and their HMB bolt beefs up the bolt where it breaks often.
 
#9
Be careful buying Nitride or Melonite treated bolts and barrel extensions. The Nitride/Melonite process will anneal bolts that have already been carburized. Over time the lugs will compress and head space will increase.
 
#10
Frankly, the biggest step forward I have seen lately, is Gas Port sizes being more sensible ( smaller )
Way to many manufacturers ( IMO ) just followed the "herd" ... as far as gas port size.

A well designed gas port size costs nothing to the user or manufacturer to produce.

There are a few places selling AR15 barrels with "practical" gas port sizes. Black River Tactical, and Sionics sell suppressor specific and "in-between" gas port sizes.

There is guy that has Youtube videos of the Extreme Suppressed GP barrel running like a champ over many rounds ( without a supressor ) .. the lack of "recoil" ( better to say the recoil impulse ) is readily obvious.

I have a BCM 14'5" that has the early "small GP" ... it is a very soft shooter.
And while I don't use it in -40 degree temps... it has been flawless in function between 25 degrees and beyond.

Here is the "Extreme Reduced GP" barrel.



 
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#11
lennyo3034 said:
Young’s Mfg makes very nice carriers and their HMB bolt beefs up the bolt where it breaks often.
Click to expand...

Hard to beat Youngs as described above, & they make both standard & lightweight carriers, I have both & love them & the HMB bolt is a good thing.

But I did put a Toolcraft DLC coated BCG & bolt in a new build recently & it very, very slick..........you can feel it.

I've also had great results with Rubber City Armory & Griffin Armament BCG's.

Gas blocks from SLR & their tubes are excellent; recoil springs from Sprinco or JP.

Buffers from Spikes............I like the powder weights better than solid weights, feels smoother; KAK & Odin also make configurable weight buffer kits & I've used them when I need a buffer below standard carbine 3 oz weight.

But you can't go wrong with JP parts if they fit your needs, I just think some of their stuff is overpriced.

MM
 
#13
Bootleg/Gemtech adjustable carriers for suppressed. Young’s MFG for everything else.

I like Armalite bolts due to having 6 lugs (equal load distribution on opposing sides of the bolt face).
 
#14
bfoosh006 said:
Frankly, the biggest step forward I have seen lately, is Gas Port sizes being more sensible ( smaller )
Way to many manufacturers ( IMO ) just followed the "herd" ... as far as gas port size.

A well designed gas port size costs nothing to the user or manufacturer to produce.

There are a few places selling AR15 barrels with "practical" gas port sizes. Black River Tactical, and Sionics sell suppressor specific and "in-between" gas port sizes.

There is guy that has Youtube videos of the Extreme Suppressed GP barrel running like a champ over many rounds ( without a supressor ) .. the lack of "recoil" ( better to say the recoil impulse ) is readily obvious.

I have a BCM 14'5" that has the early "small GP" ... it is a very soft shooter.
And while I don't use it in -40 degree temps... it has been flawless in function between 25 degrees and beyond.

Here is the "Extreme Reduced GP" barrel.



Click to expand...



Please clarify what you mean practical and what application you mean also. Without that it would appear that you are regurgitating the internet fad of the next great new thing, because it is new.

But if you have actual reasons i would like to hesr them.
 
#16
Docsherm said:
Please clarify what you mean practical and what application you mean also.Without that it would appear that you are regurgitating the internet fad of the next great new thing, because it is new.

But if you have actual reasons i would like to hesr them.
Click to expand...

I can't quite tell if you are being flippant or not... that said... but, respectfully...

I think the post is clear enough.

No regurgitating needed. You don't need to agree with me , but I would appreciate a more civil response rather then you assuming your discription of a "Without that it would appear that you are the internet fad of the next great new thing, because it is new."

It would have been easier to just ask what I meant.

Thank You.

For me it looks like a "practcal" solution to typical over gassed issues.. suppressed or not.

Lots of barrels tend to have over sized gas ports... look at all the people using ( required / needed, or not.. is up to the owner ) extra power recoil springs and heavier buffer weights and Adj. GB's to help "tame" the recoil impulse.... Not to mention +1 , +2, and more + gas length systems.

Regardless, a whole lot of those above mentioned parts have been sold to "fix" a to large gas port.

If gas ports were more "practical" on AR15's .... there might not be so many differnet heavier buffers / stronger recoil springs / gas flow limiting products.

Darn near every Large Frame AR I own has been needlessly over-gassed, with various brand barrels ( Criterion, BA, FN, PSA ) and gas system lengths. Yet all of them with Adj. GB's need only 6 of the available 15 clicks open to function in 25 degrees and up .
Only my Krieger 6.5CM barrel has a gas port size that doesn't benefit from a Adj. GB.

FWIW, all of the gas ports are within "Spec" size for the cartridge and gas port position. The Krieger gas port is considerably smaller.

The internet is full of other AR15 barrels from respected manufacturers, with over sized gas ports ( DD is well known for previous barrels gas ports being large, they have since made them smaller.. Look it up )

For the most part a reasonably smaller gas port could accomplish the same thing.

Not every one uses their AR's as a "Tier One" operator. And I realize a decent sized gas port helps assure function under horrible conditions... and that is important for people with their life in danger routinely.

If a smaller gas port can help keep an average AR shooter on target, and allow easier follow up shots.. I feel it deserves mention.

It may not be the "perfect" solution for every AR... but, IMO, it is worth considering.

Lots of AR owners modify their AR's and live happy lives with them.

At this point.. you and I can disagree... that is what makes a shooting forum great.
 
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#21
There is not bolt that will outlast an LMT Enhanced and still fit in a standard barrel extension.

There is no carrier that will yield more reliability than the LMT Enhanced in any non-rifle gas barrel.

The LMT Enhanced BCG is just head and shoulders above everything else. There is really no point in all the other half-measures out there. Either get a Toolcraft for $70 that will be "good enough" or get the LMT E-BCG. Unless you are going lightweight everything in between is just pointless.


As for the other parts:

Cam pins are all pretty similar, V7's and JP's are where it is at.

Gas rings, JP again.

Firing pin JP or V7 for TI, Alexander Arms has a really nice improvement on the traditional design as well.

Recoil spring, the Flatwire springs have an obvious advantage and Tubb's is the only place selling them individually as far as I know.

Recoil setup, A5 is the way to go unless you are going with a fixed stock and want to go rifle instead.

Gas system, you want to go as long as possible in a given barrel length before it gets unreliable. Effectively that means 10-11.5in carbine, 12.5-16in mid, 17-20in rifle.
 
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#22
LeadZeke said:
There is not bolt that will outlast an LMT Enhanced and still fit in a standard barrel extension.

There is no carrier that will yield more reliability than the LMT Enhanced in any non-rifle gas barrel.
Click to expand...

Please elaborate with some test data reference/.

LeadZeke said:
Cam pins are all pretty similar, V7's and JP's are where it is at.

Gas rings, JP again.
Click to expand...


Why on both above? Data? Tetst?

MM
 
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#23
LeadZeke said:
There is not bolt that will outlast an LMT Enhanced and still fit in a standard barrel extension. The LMT Enhanced BCG is just head and shoulders above everything else. There is really no point in all the other half-measures out there. Either get a Toolcraft for $70 that will be "good enough" or get the LMT E-BCG. Unless you are going lightweight everything in between is just pointless.
Click to expand...

 
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#25
Kadams1563 said:
I have been researching the Lantac EBCG and it’s looking interesting for running suppressed.

I wonder how it compares to the LMT E.
Click to expand...


LMT's enhanced BCG is better. Here's a very informative article explaining exactly why it is The Bomb.

smallarmssolutions.com

LMT Enhanced Bolt & Carrier

Signed armorers manual. Price includes shipping.
smallarmssolutions.com smallarmssolutions.com

If you want to take a deep dive on enhanced BCGs:

 
#26
I can't remember the last time I actually saw an LMT enhanced BCG in stock & available to buy.................... anywhere. Guess you just have to get on their wait list, lead a clean life & pray a lot.

And I've not heard of anyone breaking a Young Mfg. HMB bolt.....................yet.

MM
 
#27
I am wanting the LMT for a 11.5 suppressed build but the Lantac is marketed for suppressed SBR’s with the forward gas port.

It will be built with suppression in mind as gas to the face sucks and I don’t like crying at the range.
 
#28
LeadZeke said:
There is not bolt that will outlast an LMT Enhanced and still fit in a standard barrel extension.
Maybe maybe not, I know some that have a better design but am sure no one has tested both side by side until failure. Engineers could argue the design of the lugs allowing flex before cracking for years before agreeing 100% either design is stronger. Many companies says they have enhanced lug designs but when measured they all measure the same .100w x.277l and have square inside corners instead of radii.


There is no carrier that will yield more reliability than the LMT Enhanced in any non-rifle gas barrel.
The only difference in an LMT an any other is the cam pin slot is longer so the carrier moves further to the rear before turning the bolt and several companies have done the same thing ...copied or not.
Click to expand...
 
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#29
It isn't just the design of the bolt but also the materials and treatments. I agree that this can be an "engineer's argument" kind of thing, but not when it comes to commonly commercially available bolts that use the standard extension, that is pretty clear cut as far as I can see with the LMT (although some do come closer than a Toolcraft like the JP).

Sadly there doesn't exist much if any side by side test data, let alone with statistically significant sample sizes. So these things are almost always based off of aggregated user experience cross referenced with physical design properties. Kinda sad no one big has stepped up and run some of this stuff side by side and published the data, but given how cost-prohibitive that could be I can see why in a relatively low-margin biz it hasn't been a priority.

I think the best chance the industry/consumers have of getting this done is to partner with some of the larger rental ranges like BFLV and similar where you have CUSTOMERS paying for the ammo and time, and you just give them the stuff to tests (bolts, gas rings, firing pins, buffer springs, etc) for free and maybe a little stipend to pay them to keep track of what breaks when. Not going to be apples to apples but it will be as close as we are ever likely to get published in the public domain. I'm hoping some companies or individuals hop on this.

As for the carrier design, it isn't JUST the cam pin, it is also the gas venting to go along with it. Both have been replicated but never in the exact same way and often (like with the Surefire OBC) with other unwanted additions at an even higher price.
 
#31
LilGucci said:
I was wondering if you guys could list off your top 3 manufacturers for each of the following four areas so that I can expand my parts list beyond just JP:

  • 1.) Bolt Carrier Groups
  • 2.) Firing Pins
  • 3.) Buffer Springs
  • 4.) Gas Systems
Click to expand...

1. LMT enhanced carrier with LMT enhanced bolt because it's the shit. The enhanced carrier changes dwell time and also has added ports which significantly reduces the gas going back to the shooter and more out the port. The enhanced bolt has a lug design that makes it much more reliable than you typical bolt, it has a finish that cleans up very easily, and the lobster tail extractor uses two springs. There's a few other features too that make it awesome but that's what I remember off the top of my head.

2. LMT because it comes with the BCG.

3. For typical AR's Geissele super 42 spring and buffers. For some builds I like JP silent captured too.

4. Depends on the exact setup but as long as possible while maintaining reliability, with a Superlative gas block.





Kadams1563 said:
I am wanting the LMT for a 11.5 suppressed build but the Lantac is marketed for suppressed SBR’s with the forward gas port.

It will be built with suppression in mind as gas to the face sucks and I don’t like crying at the range.
Click to expand...

The LMT enhanced carrier is awesome for SBR's. See above reasons. It's what I run in my 10.5" LMT MRP which is heavy on the gas before a suppressor and even more so with the can. Combined with a Geissele SCH there is very little gas coming back at you. You'll never eliminate it all but this is as close as you're going to get. Never ran the Lantac but I tried one of the Gemtechs and the LMT definitely does a better job.
 
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#32
LeadZeke said:
It isn't just the design of the bolt but also the materials and treatments. I agree that this can be an "engineer's argument" kind of thing, but not when it comes to commonly commercially available bolts that use the standard extension, that is pretty clear cut as far as I can see with the LMT (although some do come closer than a Toolcraft like the JP).

Sadly there doesn't exist much if any side by side test data, let alone with statistically significant sample sizes. So these things are almost always based off of aggregated user experience cross referenced with physical design properties. Kinda sad no one big has stepped up and run some of this stuff side by side and published the data, but given how cost-prohibitive that could be I can see why in a relatively low-margin biz it hasn't been a priority.

I think the best chance the industry/consumers have of getting this done is to partner with some of the larger rental ranges like BFLV and similar where you have CUSTOMERS paying for the ammo and time, and you just give them the stuff to tests (bolts, gas rings, firing pins, buffer springs, etc) for free and maybe a little stipend to pay them to keep track of what breaks when. Not going to be apples to apples but it will be as close as we are ever likely to get published in the public domain. I'm hoping some companies or individuals hop on this.

As for the carrier design, it isn't JUST the cam pin, it is also the gas venting to go along with it. Both have been replicated but never in the exact same way and often (like with the Surefire OBC) with other unwanted additions at an even higher price.
Click to expand...
The only thing the JP bolt has is a thicker area/band around the cam pin hole that was copied from the ARP bolts after Ben with Bison sent them one and asked them to make 6.8 bolts like them. The lugs on a JP bolt are still square mil spec design .100x .277. Materials and heat treat are a part of it and many think the harder the bolt is the stronger it is but they don't take the brittleness into account.
These bolts do not work in a mil spec extensions but are years ahead of LMT or JP and no they aren't KAC bolts.
 

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#33
Constructor I know all about your superbolt and I've used some and like them. Heard great things from 6.8 users too. That's the reason I said "cannot fit in standard barrel extension."
 
#34
I'm really liking the Bootleg Adjustable Carriers, no need for adjustable gas blocks and carbon-welding of tiny set screws, but that's mainly for suppressed use. You can use them to dial down your gas unsuppressed as well, by simply inserting a flat head right through the ejection port with the bolt in battery.

I like the AA triangular cross section firing pins.

Mil-Std carbine springs, Franklin Armory, or Wolf increased power springs

JP Enhanced bolts

Regarding the LMT bolts on the enhanced BCGs meant for the M4A1 suppressed back in the early 2000s, that was meant to address excessive cyclic rate with the added dwell time and/or eroded gas ports from guns run hard in CQM training. In addition to the cam helix, enhanced bolt, and dual spring lobster tail extractor, it also had additional bleed for the excess gas and a conical captivation extension to the front of the carrier since the extended telescoping range of the bolt exposes the firing pin retaining pin on a standard carrier if you elongate the cam path.

The LMT Enhanced Bolts are made from AerMet, which is much stronger than C-158 or AQ 9130. Colt Canada and KAC don't use the Army's non-destructive testing method with HPT on their bolts, and thus don't see the kinds of failures the Army does.

To answer questions about gas system and recoil system components, it's better to have a specific projectile weight and load range narrowed down.
 
#36
1) Stag, or whatever good milspec phosphate is handy.

2) Nato spec. See above.

3) Something Chrome Silicon. Like the Tubb.

4) Nato spec rifle gas.


If you’re after accuracy, it’s not IN THE ABOVE 4.
 
#37
redneckbmxer24 said:
1. LMT enhanced carrier with LMT enhanced bolt because it's the shit. The enhanced carrier changes dwell time and also has added ports which significantly reduces the gas going back to the shooter and more out the port. The enhanced bolt has a lug design that makes it much more reliable than you typical bolt, it has a finish that cleans up very easily, and the lobster tail extractor uses two springs. There's a few other features too that make it awesome but that's what I remember off the top of my head.

2. LMT because it comes with the BCG.

3. For typical AR's Geissele super 42 spring and buffers. For some builds I like JP silent captured too.

4. Depends on the exact setup but as long as possible while maintaining reliability, with a Superlative gas block.
Click to expand...

So in 1 & 2, you're advocating the LMT Bolt & carrier, but in 4, you're advocating the longest gas system possible.

But the LMT bolt & carrier, good as they obviously are, don't really work all that well in longer gas systems like intermediate & rifle..............at least that's what I'm told.

Do you know something different & are you using the LMT bolt & BCG with rifle gas systems?

I guess I don't see any reason or problem running the LMT bolt in a standard carrier with rifle gas????

As far as bolts that require a non-mil spec extension, I'll stick with buying KAC for that case; all others I build have been &will continue to be with mil spec extensions, that the plus for LMT bolts.

What am I missing?

MM
 
#38
MontanaMan said:
So in 1 & 2, you're advocating the LMT Bolt & carrier, but in 4, you're advocating the longest gas system possible.

But the LMT bolt & carrier, good as they obviously are, don't really work all that well in longer gas systems like intermediate & rifle..............at least that's what I'm told.

Do you know something different & are you using the LMT bolt & BCG with rifle gas systems?

I guess I don't see any reason or problem running the LMT bolt in a standard carrier with rifle gas????

As far as bolts that require a non-mil spec extension, I'll stick with buying KAC for that case; all others I build have been &will continue to be with mil spec extensions, that the plus for LMT bolts.

What am I missing?

MM
Click to expand...

Yes that’s correct. The enhanced bolt makes zero difference in cycling, it’s just a hard ass bolt. The carrier in theory could, but I’ve had no issues with anything not cycling. LMT advises not using it in barrels under 14.5” for whatever reason but I run one in my 10.5” MRP with no problem suppressed or unsuppressed and I’ve ran them in long barrels and gas systems with no problem. I even special ordered the MLR Valkyrie I had with the enhanced carrier that they told me it might not work (sales guy reading off the screen) and it ran flawless.

Not sure what made LMT come to the decision that it’s not recommended for certain barrel lengths and gas systems but it’s worked in everything I’ve used them in.

Long gas system that’s tuned always makes for the softest/smoothest shooting guns. Not 16” barrel/rifle gas dissipator long as that’s probably not enough barrel in front of the port with the pressure curve of most powders loaded for AR ammo, but rifle on 18”, rifle + 1 on 20”, rifle + 2 on 22”, mid on 14.5”, and so forth if we’re talking 556 and most others.
 
#39
Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread, this is way more knowledge than I ever expected to learn. I was gone for a couple of days due to a wedding but I'm happy to be back. I've got a ton of options now to explore. Again, thank you.
 
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#40
LeadZeke said:
Constructor I know all about your superbolt and I've used some and like them. Heard great things from 6.8 users too. That's the reason I said "cannot fit in standard barrel extension."
Click to expand...
In the photo. The bolt on the left is a mil spec 5.56 bolt(microbest) same as BCM. The second is a 6.8 Superbolt and it works in mil spec extensions. I only make those for the 6.8 now. The third is a "Titan"(7.62x39 or my Predators), 4th is a "750XD" and the one on the right is a "800 series" Grendel or 7.62x39. From 2009-2017 I made apx 350 6.8 Superbolts a week.
I started making the 800 series in 2009 for all of the high pressure wildcats with a Grendel or 308 diameter case. I discontinued those because I don't want to pay an attorney $500/hr to argue my case in court...just not worth it.
 
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