Retical considerations

snowplow

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 1, 2024
110
20
WA
Dudes, brand new to all this stuff. Trying to figure out the 9000 different reticles and how/when do you want one over the other. Not to mention dialing versus Christmas tree reticles. I have a couple specific questions and a bunch more that I don't even know how to ask yet. So feel free to read my mind and educate me. LOL

When do you prefer to dial versus a Christmas tree? Where is this purely personal preference?

Are there times when you want to scope with both options or do you pick a scope that just offers your favorite?

Is it way better to have a caliber specific reticle so all the holdovers are perfect and line up with the correct distances?

Is a standard Christmas tree style in Mills used primarily just to dial?

There's so much to this. I almost don't even know where to start. What do l need to know?
 
  • Like
Reactions: clubmanager
The MR4 Reticle from Minox is still my favorite. It has a dot tree which is easily useable but not in the way of looking through the optic. So for me it's either no tree or dot tree.

1734680383874.png
 
Well I have a buddy who's been bugging me to get into long range with him. I definitely wouldn't say I've been bitten by the bug at all but I am interested. So I think he shoots long-range steel and for me I would probably use this as a longer ranged deer/black bear or coyote rifle depending on caliber. Basically I'm looking for the lease bench resty option. I want it as practical and usable as possible. I could be wrong but it seems like a good reticle would be the way to go over turrets but I really have no idea.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Makinchips208
Depends on the situation. The christmas tree is useful if being fast is more important than being super accurate.
If accuracy is more important than most people dial their elevation and hold their windage.

So having a tree at least gives you the option to choose even if you're not using it that often.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LRRPF52
I have both trees and cross hairs. Where I use them is dependent on what I want to do. If I am in the field or shooting a match I want a tree as I can adjust to conditions faster. If I am at the range shooting pure accuracy shuts I use the cross hairs as I get more open field of view.
 
  • Like
Reactions: simonp
Dudes, brand new to all this stuff. Trying to figure out the 9000 different reticles and how/when do you want one over the other.
There are 9001 reticles :ROFLMAO:
Not to mention dialing versus Christmas tree reticles.
This is largely personal preference unless you have a mechanical failure (your turret breaks), think of a tree as a backup or "quick" method when there is no time to dial.
I have a couple specific questions and a bunch more that I don't even know how to ask yet. So feel free to read my mind and educate me. LOL
Not sure I can read your mind, but I can try to help where I can...
When do you prefer to dial versus a Christmas tree? Where is this purely personal preference?
See above - This is largely personal preference unless you have a mechanical failure (your turret breaks), think of a tree as a backup or "quick" method when there is no time to dial.
Are there times when you want to scope with both options or do you pick a scope that just offers your favorite?
Not sure what you mean here. Can you explain a little further.
Is it way better to have a caliber specific reticle so all the holdovers are perfect and line up with the correct distances?
Marketing groups for scope mfr's that offer BDC reticles will try to convince you this is the case; however, when a BDC reticle is created it is for a specific barrel, specific ammo and specific atmospherics. If you deviate from any of this you will begin to encounter "errors"; however, for most shooters those errors aren't really noticeable until greater than 500 yards. Best thing to do is "confirm" the BDC hash marks with your own rifle/ammo combination. For example: BDC may be marked at 100, 200, 400, 500 and 600 yards, but with your rig/ammo you notice that in actual use zero is at 100, but 200 hash is really only 175 yards, 300 hash is 250 yards, 400 hash is 325 yards and so forth. One other way to "true" an offset BDC is to setup zero at furthest distance you will shoot, for example, if you don't plan to shoot your 5.56 beyond 500 yards, then setup so the 500 yard hashmark is dead center for your bullets POI (point of impact) at 500 yards. Using this methodology means that those marks will be slightly off as you get closer; however, the offset difference between POA (point of aim) and POI as you get closer will not matter as much... if you are off by 2 moa at 100 yards that is only about 2" which falls well within the "kill zone" of whatever critter you intend to shoot, and even if you're shooting plates and you have a 6 MOA plate you should still be able to ring that gong with a 2 MOA error, but a 2 MOA error at 500 yards is 10.47" which is a lot and quite likely would cause a miss at that distance. Hopefully that makes sense.
Is a standard Christmas tree style in Mills used primarily just to dial?
Whether your tree is in mils or moa doesn't matter, what you want to make sure of is that your reticle matches your turrets, so if turrets are mils make sure your reticle is also in mils, if turret is MOA then make sure reticle is MOA.
There's so much to this. I almost don't even know where to start. What do l need to know?
You need to know your shooting fundamentals - practice, practice, practice. Lots of guys on here can help you with the rest.
Well I have a buddy who's been bugging me to get into long range with him. I definitely wouldn't say I've been bitten by the bug at all but I am interested.
You will be bitten once you start ringing steel at 300 yards and out on a regular basis, be forewarned, it is addictive!
So I think he shoots long-range steel and for me I would probably use this as a longer ranged deer/black bear or coyote rifle depending on caliber.
Same principles apply whether steel or furry critters.
Basically I'm looking for the lease bench resty option.
Stay away from SFP scopes
I want it as practical and usable as possible.
FFP with mil turrets and reticle will be the most practical and usable. Sure you can use an moa/moa scope but you will find most shooting dynamic shooting sports keep to mil/mil, it is quicker/easier, but at the end of the day both mil/moa will get you hits on target.
I could be wrong but it seems like a good reticle would be the way to go over turrets but I really have no idea.
Generally speaking, if you are shooting long distance, you will come to appreciate dialing and having decent turrets will be a big benefit, almost any decent FFP scope today is going to have pretty good turrets. Only LPVO's seem to have some poor turrets depending on mfr because they mostly think shooters will be using the reticle and not the turrets; there are also some wonky scopes from some manufacturers who try to blend FFP and SFP designs and most of these I feel ends up frustrating the owner, just stick with a good mil/mil FFP scope with exposed turrets for anything other than an LPVO.

One last thought, most shooters who dial for elevation do NOT dial for wind. You read that right and this is because wind is a constant variable, you can go from 4mph to 20mph within seconds on a gusty day and trying to constantly dial for wind will become a lesson in futility, instead, use your ballistic app (or DOPE - data on previous engagement) to identify the different wind holds at various wind speeds. For example, you are taking a shot at 687 yards and your ballistic app says to dial 4.7 mils based on your bullet and MV (muzzle velocity) and atmospherics, so you dial the elevation to 4.7, but now you notice the wind flags are dancing around like Tiny Tim tiptoeing through the tulips and your ballistic app is fixed to 4mph, but gosh darn it all if that wind isn't fluctuating between 4mph and 20mph and everything in between so that you only have about 5 seconds before it changes (this is where a Kestrel can help but you can also learn to "read" wind at various distances), so if wind is at 12mph you check your DOPE card and see that your bullets hold is 1.7 mils right, so you move your rifle/scope so the horizontal 1.7 mil hashmark is on your target, take the shot... HIT! Okay, ready to take another shot, what the... wind just switched to 20mph, look at your DOPE quick, it says 3.2 mils for 20mph so now you move your rifle/scope so the horizontal hashmark at 3.2 mils is on your target, send it... HIT! That's how that works and you can see why dialing wind might become a pain, not only that, all of us, and I mean ALL of us, have forgotten to return our turret to zero at one time or another, it's pain enough when we forget elevation but forgetting both elevation and wind can turn into a mess quickly. If you leave your elevation at 8.9 mils and take a shot at a 200 yard target you might notice that your bullet impacts about 1000 yards downrange, this is a telltale sign that you forgot to bring your turret back to zero, most of the decent scopes out have a zero stop, you don't even have to look at your turret, just spin down until it stops and verify it's on zero (some go below zero before they stop). But if you forget to return your windage turret to zero, it may take you a bit longer as you don't understand what the wind is doing and think it's the wind and not your turret.

A conversation for another time is wind at varying distances between you and your target. This is more greatly affected by longer distances and shooting in hill country where wind at distance can wreck havoc even with a good ballistic app because while wind might be at 4mph where you are, that target at 832 yards has a crosswind going the opposite direction at 16mph as well as an updraft of 10mph because you're shooting over a hill half way in between... now we're having fun ;)
 
I prefer a center dot and if stadia I want them on the minimal side. No full on Christmas tree. FFP, miils of course. I dial elevation and hold wind unless the wind call exceeds about 1.5 mil and is mostly constant wind value. I will dial in spin drift only shooting distance......don't know why but that helps me wind calling on the fly to forget about adding left dope to compensate spin drift. The only time I don't dial is night hunting ranges that are 90% 350 and less. Then I hold vs dial elevation. My preferred is a March FML-1, simple center dot mil reticle with no Christmas tree
 
Last edited:
Most of reticle selection is personal preference based upon experience. The truth is that it's the shooter way more than any reticle that matters. I'd recommend buying a used, high quality FFP scope here. You can then develop your own experience to choose to stay with what you have or move in a particular direction from there without taking a hit on depreciation. No one else's choice of reticle will help.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CK1.0
For the last 10 years I was a hardcore tree reticle guy. Recently I decided that it's probably a detriment to most shooters. There are some clear advantages to running a non tree reticle.

Unless you are in combat where time is life or death it's probably better to go with a well designed simple reticle with .2 hashes so you can make corrections. Dial for elevation and hold windage ( or dial it too). Some of the best long range practical shooters in the world run a simple reticle like the JTAC and a tree is not needed. I think for most shooters, the tree just gets in the way, effects and distracts from the target and is rarely every used as designed. Being able to spot your shot easier is much more important than having the tree. Pay 4 to 5 grand for the best glass money can buy than clutter half your view with a bunch of shit you don't need.... No thanks.

My 3 favorite reticles at the moment are the JTAC in a Tangent Theta, MPCT1x in ZCO and the PR3 from Leupold.

I think you will see as the shooter gets better they need the tree less. It will get to a point where the tree has little value, and what little it does have is either not needed or not worth the tradeoff.
 
One thing to learn at the beginning. The only time to refer to inches on target is when you are in hand touching distance of the target. When you are behind the gun refer to adjustments in whatever ecosystem (mil or moa) you choose. Both work for whatever distance to the target measurement you want to use.
 
For the last 10 years I was a hardcore tree reticle guy. Recently I decided that it's probably a detriment to most shooters. There are some clear advantages to running a non tree reticle.

Unless you are in combat where time is life or death it's probably better to go with a well designed simple reticle with .2 hashes so you can make corrections. Dial for elevation and hold windage ( or dial it too). Some of the best long range practical shooters in the world run a simple reticle like the JTAC and a tree is not needed. I think for most shooters, the tree just gets in the way, effects and distracts from the target and is rarely every used as designed. Being able to spot your shot easier is much more important than having the tree. Pay 4 to 5 grand for the best glass money can buy than clutter half your view with a bunch of shit you don't need.... No thanks.

My 3 favorite reticles at the moment are the JTAC in a Tangent Theta, MPCT1x in ZCO and the PR3 from Leupold.

I think you will see as the shooter gets better they need the tree less. It will get to a point where the tree has little value, and what little it does have is either not needed or not worth the tradeoff.
I feel most trees are way too wide. No one is holding 6 mils of wind with 9 mils of elevation and it puts the numbers almost out of view. You have to shift your focus to the side when you're using the bottom half to make sure you're on the right elevation mark.

That's a non-issue with all three reticles you use as the numbers are all close to center and the JTAC makes every 0.2 mil hashmark per mil unique. I like that.
 
Everyone's eyes/brain are different, and after shooting X-mas tree reticles for a long time, I've also found that simpler, less-busy reticles work best for me. I'm glad more manufacturers have started offering simpler reticles recently like the MIL-C F1, JTAC, PR3, MPCT-1X, and SKMR+.

Once you get into the weeds, there's even more to it though, as it seems that different guys will also have different opinions/perceptions on reticle thickness/thinness with some guys preferring .2mil graduations over the 1/4mil or even .5mil reticles that might seem better to others.

I've been shooting an MPCT-1X for a little while now and love it, as it seems to strike a good "happy medium" balance between being thick enough to pick up fast and not lose easily while being thin enough at max mag to not cover up too much on small targets. But that said, for my eyes/brain, if I'm honest, the slightly less cluttered 1/4 mil hashes, and slightly thicker lines of the PR3 probably felt more natural to me and easier to use for my eyes/brain.

But everyone is different, and what works for me may not be the same as what works best for someone else.
 
There are 9001 reticles :ROFLMAO:

This is largely personal preference unless you have a mechanical failure (your turret breaks), think of a tree as a backup or "quick" method when there is no time to dial.

Not sure I can read your mind, but I can try to help where I can...

See above - This is largely personal preference unless you have a mechanical failure (your turret breaks), think of a tree as a backup or "quick" method when there is no time to dial.

Not sure what you mean here. Can you explain a little further.

Marketing groups for scope mfr's that offer BDC reticles will try to convince you this is the case; however, when a BDC reticle is created it is for a specific barrel, specific ammo and specific atmospherics. If you deviate from any of this you will begin to encounter "errors"; however, for most shooters those errors aren't really noticeable until greater than 500 yards. Best thing to do is "confirm" the BDC hash marks with your own rifle/ammo combination. For example: BDC may be marked at 100, 200, 400, 500 and 600 yards, but with your rig/ammo you notice that in actual use zero is at 100, but 200 hash is really only 175 yards, 300 hash is 250 yards, 400 hash is 325 yards and so forth. One other way to "true" an offset BDC is to setup zero at furthest distance you will shoot, for example, if you don't plan to shoot your 5.56 beyond 500 yards, then setup so the 500 yard hashmark is dead center for your bullets POI (point of impact) at 500 yards. Using this methodology means that those marks will be slightly off as you get closer; however, the offset difference between POA (point of aim) and POI as you get closer will not matter as much... if you are off by 2 moa at 100 yards that is only about 2" which falls well within the "kill zone" of whatever critter you intend to shoot, and even if you're shooting plates and you have a 6 MOA plate you should still be able to ring that gong with a 2 MOA error, but a 2 MOA error at 500 yards is 10.47" which is a lot and quite likely would cause a miss at that distance. Hopefully that makes sense.

Whether your tree is in mils or moa doesn't matter, what you want to make sure of is that your reticle matches your turrets, so if turrets are mils make sure your reticle is also in mils, if turret is MOA then make sure reticle is MOA.

You need to know your shooting fundamentals - practice, practice, practice. Lots of guys on here can help you with the rest.

You will be bitten once you start ringing steel at 300 yards and out on a regular basis, be forewarned, it is addictive!

Same principles apply whether steel or furry critters.

Stay away from SFP scopes

FFP with mil turrets and reticle will be the most practical and usable. Sure you can use an moa/moa scope but you will find most shooting dynamic shooting sports keep to mil/mil, it is quicker/easier, but at the end of the day both mil/moa will get you hits on target.

Generally speaking, if you are shooting long distance, you will come to appreciate dialing and having decent turrets will be a big benefit, almost any decent FFP scope today is going to have pretty good turrets. Only LPVO's seem to have some poor turrets depending on mfr because they mostly think shooters will be using the reticle and not the turrets; there are also some wonky scopes from some manufacturers who try to blend FFP and SFP designs and most of these I feel ends up frustrating the owner, just stick with a good mil/mil FFP scope with exposed turrets for anything other than an LPVO.

One last thought, most shooters who dial for elevation do NOT dial for wind. You read that right and this is because wind is a constant variable, you can go from 4mph to 20mph within seconds on a gusty day and trying to constantly dial for wind will become a lesson in futility, instead, use your ballistic app (or DOPE - data on previous engagement) to identify the different wind holds at various wind speeds. For example, you are taking a shot at 687 yards and your ballistic app says to dial 4.7 mils based on your bullet and MV (muzzle velocity) and atmospherics, so you dial the elevation to 4.7, but now you notice the wind flags are dancing around like Tiny Tim tiptoeing through the tulips and your ballistic app is fixed to 4mph, but gosh darn it all if that wind isn't fluctuating between 4mph and 20mph and everything in between so that you only have about 5 seconds before it changes (this is where a Kestrel can help but you can also learn to "read" wind at various distances), so if wind is at 12mph you check your DOPE card and see that your bullets hold is 1.7 mils right, so you move your rifle/scope so the horizontal 1.7 mil hashmark is on your target, take the shot... HIT! Okay, ready to take another shot, what the... wind just switched to 20mph, look at your DOPE quick, it says 3.2 mils for 20mph so now you move your rifle/scope so the horizontal hashmark at 3.2 mils is on your target, send it... HIT! That's how that works and you can see why dialing wind might become a pain, not only that, all of us, and I mean ALL of us, have forgotten to return our turret to zero at one time or another, it's pain enough when we forget elevation but forgetting both elevation and wind can turn into a mess quickly. If you leave your elevation at 8.9 mils and take a shot at a 200 yard target you might notice that your bullet impacts about 1000 yards downrange, this is a telltale sign that you forgot to bring your turret back to zero, most of the decent scopes out have a zero stop, you don't even have to look at your turret, just spin down until it stops and verify it's on zero (some go below zero before they stop). But if you forget to return your windage turret to zero, it may take you a bit longer as you don't understand what the wind is doing and think it's the wind and not your turret.

A conversation for another time is wind at varying distances between you and your target. This is more greatly affected by longer distances and shooting in hill country where wind at distance can wreck havoc even with a good ballistic app because while wind might be at 4mph where you are, that target at 832 yards has a crosswind going the opposite direction at 16mph as well as an updraft of 10mph because you're shooting over a hill half way in between... now we're having fun ;)

Somehow I knew for all the contributions to laymen's scope knowledge, you were really a professional in disguise who knows way more about optics than you let on...😆

Glassaholic.jpg