Reticle Choice: Mil-C, Mil-XT, Tremor 3

[RmeJu]

I'm building a new rifle, and thinking about swapping out my NF Atacr F1 5-25 Mil-R for a different reticle (and possibly going to 7-35). I really like the scope itself, and I don't hate the Mil-R, but I'd like to give another reticle a try. In all likelihood, the rifle will mostly be used for informal target shooting, but may get taken on a hunt or used in a competition on occasion. Unfortunately, I don't have the budget to build multiple specialized rifles (hunting, PRS type comp., etc.) so this gun will get tasked for double/triple duty, which I will just have to accept will not always be ideal in any particular situation. I was considering the 3 reticles noted in the subject line. I'm not married to just this set, it's just where my research led me so far.

Mil-C: To me, this looks like a little bit better executed version of the Mil-R. Center dot, finer stadia, and I like the way NF offset the hashmarks, but still pretty simple. Not a holdover reticle though. This is reticle is currently in last place in my mind, but I'm still giving it meaningful consideration.

Mil-XT: Mil-C plus what appears to be a relatively well-executed x-mas tree for holdovers, including dots halfway through each mil, on the half mils. I imagine on this reticle, like the Mil-C, I'd be dialing for elevation when I have time, holding for wind. But I could use the x-mas tree for a follow up shot or just to hold off/over if I didn't have time to dial elevation on the first shot. I'm currently on the fence between this and the Tremor 3. As a plus, this reticle is "free," unlike the T3.

Tremor 3: I don't like the extra price tag, but I'd be willing to pay if it's the right choice. I will say that I am willing to take the time to learn this reticle, and I'm not (necessarily) turned off by how busy it is, but I recognize that as a potential downside, esp. at lower magnification. As I understand, the idea behind this reticle is hold everything, every time. No dialing, ever. I like the idea of holding for both movers and wind in MPH, rather than mils, but I have heard a couple of concerns, and have a couple of my own.

I understand that some find the wind dots too big/way too big, and the reticle getting in the way is part of the reason I want to switch from the Mil-R in the first place. I have heard others claim that the wind dots only work to ~600 yards which, if true, makes this feature less valuable to me. Is that true? I would also like to know how well the mover holds actually work. Finally, given that the idea is to always hold everything, what happens when you're shooting at distances that require you to hold over more than 10 mils, after which there are no longer wind dots. Do you just have to go back to holding off in Mils? Is there a reason for this, or something that I'm not understanding?

In addition to the above, are there any questions I'm not asking that I should be? Also, given that I am considering moving to the 7-35 magnification, would any of your reticle advice change based on 5-25 vs. 7-35? Any thoughts on these choices would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Mortalpawn]

I like the Mil-C reticle. I have the NF 7-35 with the Mil-C and it is very clear and not cluttered. The inverted T on the right has 0.1 mil marks which is great for milling or measuring groups/adjustments on paper targets. For most shots I dial the elevation in and hold the windage which is easy to do with the 0.2 mil marks on the main reticle.

While the Christmas tree on the Mil-XT or Tremor might help in a handful of use cases where you need to hold off both windage and elevation, I find this is pretty rare for a precision rifle. I'm far more likely to do this on a hunting rifle or a short range rifle like an AR-15.

It may be personal preference, but I like uncluttered reticles like the MIL-C. I like to focus on the tiny dot at the center of it and not have a the distracting hold lines.

 

[RmeJu]

I do like the .1 mil subtentions on the inverted T, which I have now on the Mil-R, and would lose with the Mil-XT or Tremor, although I was thinking I could get away with the .2 subtentions on those reticles. Admittedly, milling would be even harder without it. As for the clutter, that will likely be the deciding factor for me between Mil-C and Mil-XT if I eliminate the T3.

I guess my big questions on the T3 are, how far do the wind dots realistically work (if there's a limit), and how do you shoot movers with the wind dots if you're already holding. In fact, I'm not even sure I get how to shoot movers on the main crosshair, and can't seem to find info on that. I'm tempted to say that you just lead by the mph reading on the crosshair, but that can't be constant for all conditions, can it? Otherwise, why would you have to calibrate your dots for wind mph? Or does mover lead stay constant regardless of conditions, and therefore (unlike wind dots) they don't need calibration and can therefore be fixed? And, on a "hold everything" reticle, is there ever really going to be an opportunity to use the mover leads on the main crosshair?

As for shooting movers with the dots, I looked at Todd's video, but (no disrespect) I thought he could have done a better job explaining. He basically says that if the target moves 6 dots, lead 6 dots.... but to me, the obvious missing input you need to know is how fast does the mover cover those dots. If your dots are 4mph, and you're lucky enough to have a constant 4mph mover, then (I guess) you just add/subtract a dot? Although if that's right, then do mover holds require calibration after all? And if that's not how it works, then I'm lost on how to lead movers on the grid, which would be important, since on a T3, you're always supposed to be on the grid...

 

[wigwamitus]

Wind dots work great ... out to 1,000 ... over 1,000 your usually gonna have to dial 5 mils or even 10 mils ... if you dial 5 mils your wind dot values are halved ... that's still useful ... a 4 value becomes a 2 value, so you can still hold for 16-18 MPH max. But if you have to dial 10 mils up your dot values are quartered ... so a 4 becomes a 1 ... now your MPH limit is 8-9.

As to movers ... the AF formula is 1.25 mils per 2 mph ... which works pretty well for 30 cal out to 400yds ... the numbers above the horizontal cross hair represent the MPH, which on 7x gets you up to 40 MPH.

Here's the T3 manual which explains the details ...

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/User Guides/Tremor 3 presentation civ.pdf

There are three main sorts of rifle scope reticles

01 - Duplex - dial for elevation and for wind

02 - Mil hash - dial for elevation, hold for wind

03 - Hold-over - hold for elevation and hold for wind

The T3 is a type 03 reticle, but adds the Wind Dots. The wind dots enable you to think and hold for wind in MPH without reference to any ballistics calculator. But, the T3 has a full mil grid, so you can ignore the wind dots and use ballistics calculator and hold in mils if needed. But if you want to do that all the time, definitely do not get a T3 reticle. Only get a T3 if you want to use the wind dots. But if shooting over 1200-1500 yards (depending on flight path) you might have to shift over to mils. The wind dots are designer for "sniper" type distances ... 400-900yds ... they work outside that ... but do tail off in value over 1,000 ... for ELR ... you'll be using MIL holds and a T3 is not for that.

Please feel free to ask away on the T3, I'm no expert, but I have 4 and have been using them increasingly for 1.5 years. I also have mil-hash reticles and use those as well.
==
There is a fourth type of rifle scope reticle ... though it is not a "main" type

04 - DTR - David Tubbs Reticle ... this reticle does for elevation what the T3 does for wind ... and OBTW, the DTR also has wind dots.
Built into the DTR is density altitude adjustment and aero jump ... as well as wind dots ... amazing sh^t. I'm still trying to get up the nerve to get one. But I fear, if I do, I'll have to replace all my scopes ... and that would take at least an EON
With the DTR, you have no need for any ballistic calculator ... and David can hit pests out to 1400+ yards with this reticle ... check out the videos if you don't mind hunting videos.

 

[just browsing]

Mil-C if you want simple.
Mil-XT if you want a tree.

Both have their merits but it really just comes down to preference. I prefer the former as I like the cleaner sight picture and ‘deal with’ not having a tree for the handful of elevation+windage holdover stages I come across.

Different strokes, but my recommendation would be to find someone with both and shoot them.

And if you notice I left the T3 out... it’s for good reason.

 

[wigwamitus]

Note, I don't care what reticle you wind up using ... since we don't shoot together

But I think one of the purposes of the forum is for us to share information to help each other make better procurement decisions ... so in that regard, in reading your posts, I see a few more questions/comments about the T3 I will try to answer ..

... Tremor 3: I don't like the extra price tag, but I'd be willing to pay if it's the right choice. I will say that I am willing to take the time to learn this reticle, and I'm not (necessarily) turned off by how busy it is, but I recognize that as a potential downside, esp. at lower magnification. As I understand, the idea behind this reticle is hold everything, every time. No dialing, ever. I like the idea of holding for both movers and wind in MPH, rather than mils, but I have heard a couple of concerns, and have a couple of my own ...

On my six active rifles, I have 4 x T3 reticles a MIL-R and an SCR-MIL (very similar to a MIL-R). The reason I'm 2/3rds of the way "in" on "no dial" reticles is I shoot with rifle mounted LRF. With a rifle mounted LRF, you must have the elevation turret sitting on the distance at which you zeroed the LRF to the reticle, in order to get an accurate distance measurement. With a dial reticle like the MIL-R, for 3 unknown distance targets, You range, dial, shoot, return to zero, range dial shoot, return to zero, range dial shoot, return to zero. With the T3 (or any hold-over reticle) you range, shoot, range, shoot, range, shoot. Now, that works with ANY hold-over reticle, you don't have to have wind dots, to be able to execute that process.

The wind dots are an extra bonus. Before I shoot, I do a 2 (sometimes 3) minute wind read ... with the kestrel ... I measure the Low, the Average and the High and while the kestrel is getting those data, I'm watching the wind speed on the kestrel and also listening to the trees move and turning and watching the trees moving and indexing the sounds and movements to the wind speed. Once the wind read is done, I record the low, avg and high and direction in my data book and make a decision about the base wind speed. Then I get behind the gun and decide what to hold now, in MPH. As I shoot at different targets, the angle to the wind changes and also, based on what I hear and see, the wind speed is changing. I think in MPH about the Low, Avg and High that I indexed to the trees (or other natural entities, like surface of pond) and adjust accordingly. Also, all rounds are sighters whether hits or misses, so I can include that information into future shots. I rarely shoot more than 2 rds per target when doing wind practice, but it is done in MPH and I find that simplier (and faster) than referring back to a ballistics calculator for each shot.

==

... I understand that some find the wind dots too big/way too big, and the reticle getting in the way is part of the reason I want to switch from the Mil-R in the first place ...

As to "clutter" ... that's a word many people use to describe the hold-over reticles, especially the horus ones ... though life is full of trade-offs. If you want/need a "no dial" reticle, well, hold-over reticles were designed for that. So "clutter" is in the mind of the beholder ... here is a decent thru the lens pic of the T3 at 22x looking at 2 targets under a tree at between 500yds - 600yds ... at a PRS match ... I was usually shooting around 15x ... but I cranked the magnification up for this pic. See if you can find both of the targets

And if you want to move away from the MIL-R because it is too cluttered, well, you may have already answered your own question on which reticle you prefer ! Although I read ...

"Mil-C: To me, this looks like a little bit better executed version of the Mil-R. Center dot, finer stadia, and I like the way NF offset the hashmarks, but still pretty simple. Not a holdover reticle though. This is reticle is currently in last place in my mind, but I'm still giving it meaningful consideration.

So not sure.

==

... I have heard others claim that the wind dots only work to ~600 yards which, if true, makes this feature less valuable to me. Is that true? ...

This is not true and I answered this mostly in my first post ... Wind Dots are just a different unit of measure as compared to mils (or moa) ... i.e. enabling use of MPH. When you run out of wind dots, you then do have to dial. For my 30 cal cartridges, this happens around 1,000 yds ... you dial up 5 mils and the wind dot values are halved, you dial up 10 mils and the wind dot values are quartered. Once you have done that, then depending on the wind, you might have to shift to using mils to hold for wind.

This is all explained in the Tremor 3 manual .. here is the link

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/User Guides/Tremor 3 presentation civ.pdf

==

... #3
I do like the .1 mil subtentions on the inverted T, which I have now on the Mil-R, and would lose with the Mil-XT or Tremor ...

If you look at the very first section in the T3 manual, you will see the locations of both the verticle and the two horizontal 0.1 mil reticle sections designed to be used for milling.

==

... As for the clutter, that will likely be the deciding factor for me between Mil-C and Mil-XT if I eliminate the T3 ...

Again, if clutter is the deciding factor, then perhaps you've already made your decision

When does holding help ? For me, if facing multiple yotes between 100-500yds ... speed is of the essence ... and ability to range and shoot quickly helps. For PRS, in theory we have known distance targets, though sometimes the given ranges are off enough the we should validate. But this can be done at the "squad" level when first reaching the stage and each shooter does not have to repeat. Our PRS stages are all timed, so holding does help, though most people I've shot with are dialing. Though very few people are able to engage all the targets in every stage. In the last match I shot ... no one in my squad was able to engage all targets in every stage.

==
As to movers ... I have not used the T3 for movers ... for me there isn't time to first make a formal MPH judgement and then translate that to the reticle and use the reticle to hold. So I use the critter as the reticle when holding for movers. If a target was proceeding across a very open flat area for 10 seconds or so, there might be time. But I live along a creek with lots of vegetation and the yotes, opossum and coons that prey on the critters I keep, are only in view for a few seconds. So I use inherent skills like I am throwing a football or trying to hit them with a fastly thrown rock, when aiming at moving critters. I theory the AF mover formula will get you pretty darn close, close enough for a hit, especially with critters that are longer than they are tall. The Marine Scout Sniper manual I have contains similar data for movers which are taller than they are wide.

I'd like to have a mover practice capability, but it would be a build project to build something I could use by myself and my outdoor time is already way over committed, so that project never gets done. I've hit hogs, yotes, coons, opossum movers but each shot is unique, as to elevation change and crossing speed and angle the target presents to the shooter. So I think the mover formula is more useful for military/LEOs who might be facing critters that shoot back, but are moving across their front, not aware of the presence of the shooter and maintaining a constant speed. That description does not apply to the fast mover shots I make when hunting. For slow mover shots, when the critter is moving and not aware of me. I trap forward to a spot and wait until the critter is approaching the cross hair and then fire. These shots are inside 300yds. I have not used the AF formula for this yet. Use "critter is the reticle".

But since most hunting holds would even be inside 200yds, then yes, you would mostly be using the info on the main horizontal line because for most cartridges, you will be flat enough out to 200yds. I shoot unaware coons, opossum, yotes moving slowly out to 225 yards with .308WIN because my drop is under 4 inches out to 225.
==

But look at the manual, that should help. And again, for me the use of rifle mounted range finders was a key driver in switching to no dial shooting. If you won't be using rifle mounted LRF, then no dial shooting won't buy you as much time, especially if shooting alone.

 

[BED]

Following. Currently have a Mil-R and thinking about moving to the XT or T3

 

[Kyle Kelly]

So I hated the Tremor 3 for a good 6 months then I started looking at it more. Breaking down every detail and especially the wind-dots. Teaching myself to ignore what I do and don’t need when shooting and the “clutter” was gone. Ended up buying a Nightforce ATACR with a T3 for my 6.5 and selling my S&B to get another T3 equipped optic for a 5.56 gas gun. Some guys get them and find it’s not for them others fall invoke with it. But it’s about practice honestly.

 

[JustSendit]

Oh god don’t bring up the T3 it’s renowned for its ability to, by name mention alone, cause pain for some of the SH community.

I think it’s great, a little study and the dots are easy and accurate to calibrate, the milling tree is quick to use and with some practice can be very handy on a UKD course of fire without range finders. The same tree will work movers as well, a simple base hold but it’s effective.

Look at 1000, even past 800m, I will dial, then use the mills for my wind hold, key is knowing a wind formula and how to do all that’s related to shooting in the wind... the dots are just convenient.

The main downside is the clutter of the Christmas tree which can obscure your impacts, I never really see this myself.
The other downside is you actually need to put time and effort into using the capabilities of the reticle, after that it’s just range time.

I by no means think it’s something everyone needs but it’s not at all bad to have.

 

[richthe1]

Do the mover holds on the T3 only work for 100yds?

 

[Sixfivesavage]

There's obviously a lot of personal preference involved with reticle choice and it mostly comes down to your shooting style and situation of use. One thing to keep in mind though, is that quite a large portion of people offering opinions on any sample of reticles, especially so when it comes to the T3 being in the mix of choices, haven't even seen much less used each reticle in question. I can tell you first hand, the T3 is nowhere near as busy in actual use as it appears to be in pictures or drawings. I've had all three of these reticles, used them for at least a year, with the exception of the T3 being about 6 or 8 months so far. The MIL-C was my choice for quite a bit but I found myself wishing I still had a tree a lot of times. When the MIL-XT came out I ordered it thinking it would be my perfect reticle. That thing was hot garbage to me and looked like someone sneezed on the lense when they were building the scope. I couldn't shoot with it. Tried to for a year maybe and just couldn't get it to suit me. Went with T3 as a last ditch to try before I went back to MIL-C and I'm glad I did. I'm much better served with it and its wind dots than I am a standard tree. Even faster than the rifle MPH method for me.

 

[BED]

Thanks for the feedback. I have been going back and forth from the T3 to the XT and keep going back to the T3 for some reason. I will make a decision sometime soon and hope to be happy with it. I currently have the Mil-R and am looking for a bit more info. Tx

 

[RmeJu]

For what it's worth, I'm the OP, and went with the MIL-XT. I really like it, but I will also say that, after having it, I see the benefit of all three designs.