Rifle tuner?

[TurboTrout]

Are these things a...well thing?

Anyone use one? Opinions?

Adaptive Tuning System

Make sure your groups are as tight as possible with an ATS tuner. Anarchy Outdoors carries the Kinetic Security Solutions barrel tuner, so you can tune your rifle barrel and make consistent shots.

www.anarchyoutdoors.com

 

[Dave62677]

i thought it was a case trimmer....

i would love to see any reviews.

 

[THEIS]

i thought it was a case trimmer....

i would love to see any reviews.

Hi,

There are all sorts of reviews and threads on them.....search "tuners" in the search bar up at top righthand side.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[A&8's]

Tuners aren't new.

They're not a "new" thing. Heck, BR rimfire shooter have been using them since the 80's. Probably earlier, but that's when I got into guns, so my 1st recollection of barrel tuners.

 

[TurboTrout]

Tuners aren't new.

They're not a "new" thing. Heck, BR rimfire shooter have been using them since the 80's. Probably earlier, but that's when I got into guns, so my 1st recollection of barrel tuners.

I don’t recall seeing any on PRS, NRL, or tactical stuff.

I’ll search around, but it’s interesting and new to me

 

[Paqueo]

They are intended to tune barrel harmonics for factory ammo. If you reload you should tune your load for the barrel harmonics

 

[Maurygold]

They are intended to tune barrel harmonics for factory ammo. If you reload you should tune your load for the barrel harmonics

tell that to the benchrest guys cutting kernels. tuners are an adaptable system to try to predict/control the barrel deflection at exit

 

[A&8's]

Tuners aren't new.

They're not a "new" thing. Heck, BR rimfire shooter have been using them since the 80's. Probably earlier, but that's when I got into guns, so my 1st recollection of barrel tuners.

I don’t recall seeing any on PRS, NRL, or tactical stuff.

I’ll search around, but it’s interesting and new to me

Turning a .5" gun into a .25" gun really isn't that big of deal, when most (myself included) can't maintain a .5"moa from a positional position. BR guys don't do positional. There is, however, the "reload in Wa and shoot in Fl" theory.

 

[Adam B]

The great thing I found is that as you shoot your barrel out you can adjust your tuner to shrink you groups back down. You can also load a bunch of ammo right out of the gate and tune as needed.

 

[rustyinbend]

Seems a little like "Alpaca Ranching". The only way to make money with it ... is to find someone to buy your Alpacas once you realize they serve no useful purpose. (But that's just me ... )

 

[TurboTrout]

The great thing I found is that as you shoot your barrel out you can adjust your tuner to shrink you groups back down. You can also load a bunch of ammo right out of the gate and tune as needed.

And with my main guns being a 22LR and 308, that won’t be a big concern till I find somewhere that warrants a 338 or 6 dasher type of build, I’m not doing benchrest, so guess I’ll file this under a “cool to know” type device

 

[Texasflyer]

I have a 1975 model 70 270 sporter classic with the browning boss adjustable brake. Its a big help for dialing in factory ammo. Eric cortina is making a nice one now too. He has some decent vids on youtube showing how it works.

 

[kthomas]

Turning a .5" gun into a .25" gun really isn't that big of deal, when most (myself included) can't maintain a .5"moa from a positional position. BR guys don't do positional. There is, however, the "reload in Wa and shoot in Fl" theory.

Benchrest shooters also aren't using tuners to make their rifles more precise. All load workup is done without touching a tuner. They use the tuner to keep their rifle "in tune", as the conditions change throughout the day of a match. A difference in vertical between 1.5" and 2" at 1,000 yards will win or lose a BR match. That small difference doesn't effect your score in a PRS match.

 

[kthomas]

I don’t recall seeing any on PRS, NRL, or tactical stuff.

I’ll search around, but it’s interesting and new to me

They are starting to become "in vogue" in PRS.

Personally, I think they have limited utility for PRS/NRL and similar disciplines. I don't believe the pro's outweigh the cons in most situations for what we are doing. In my testing, I wasn't able to make my custom rifle with my reloads more precise with a tuner. You also need to keep in mind that you are adding a variable into your system that's designed to change POI & group size. If the retention system comes loose (like a set screw), then you will experience a POI and group size change. If the main threads come loose, will that POI/group size go back to "normal" when you tighten it back up for the next stage? Some reports I'm hearing from shooters using different tuners are saying that the return to POA/POI is not repeatable with certain brands. Unlike F-class and BR, we knock our rifles around, and the end of the barrel can see a lot of abuse in our disciplines. It's another variable, and another potential failure point, and I think we would be remiss to ignore that.

It's also another variable that can add confusion to what's going on down range. If you don't already have a really good grasp of internal and external ballistics, adding another variable that can and will effect what happens down range can create for confusion when trying to diagnose any down range "issues" or anomalies. A top BR shooter and gunsmith, Alex Wheeler, tells his clients to burn out a barrel or two in benchrest competitions before even considering adding a tuner. Understand explicitly what is happening with other variables and their downrange effects before adding in another variable to play with.

Some good shooters swear that they can optimize factory ammo to their rifle with a tuner. I haven't personally tested that, so I will take their word for it. I think most serious shooters are shooting reloads, however, this is a really cool benefit for factory ammo shooters, and I'm curious to hear if more and more shooters find this true in their specific rifles with factory ammo.

As tuners become more popular, I would love to hear more reports and experiences with them, I find this kind of stuff very interesting. I'm personally really curious to see if tuners gain prominence in these type of disciplines, or if they become a passing fad. How we are using them in PRS/NRL/etc. is much different then what they are being used for in BR and F-class, and it will be interesting to see if people find the utility of tuners outweighing the potential failures and downsides.

 

[TurboTrout]

Interesting

 

[Adam B]

 

[rydah]

Tuners are just another tool to add to your arsenal. Some people aren’t really interested in them because they have a solid reloading process that works for them and that’s cool but tuners most certainly do work.

Tuning factory ammo, further refining a good load, replacing seat depth tests completely and bringing a load back into a node should I fall out of one are some of the benefits of having a tuner.

Tuners won’t necessarily get you precision that you can’t access already but it does make it quicker and easier to access in my opinion.

I have a quick/rough video series on how to use a tuner and what you could expect from using a tuner on the website in the faq section.

This is the without warning tmb a tuner and muzzle brake in one device. More info on the website.

www.strikewithoutwarning.com

 

[Texasflyer]

The browning B.O.S.S. tuner there is a designation mark on top of the barrel. Came stock on my model 70 classic sporter boss model. Wish i could find some info on the rifle variant but there doesnt seem to be much out there about it.

 

[kthomas]

Just finished watching this.

These kind of reviews annoy me. First off, there's no initial datum, on how the rifle performs with the factory ammo without the tuner. It's neat to see the POI and group size move around (even if it's only two shots each), but the data is not being provided in the full scope of context for what a tuner is supposed to achieve. He doesn't shoot the 5 round group on camera (just shows a picture), and the data set itself is very limited, to the point of being statistically insignificant.

If I was in the market for a tuner, watching that video provides next to no information for me as a potential consumer. Perhaps there's a perfect opportunity here for someone like Cal Zant of the precision rifle blog, to perform a statistical analysis between tuner vs no tuner and factory ammo. Shoot a bunch of 5 round groups without tuner, and get an average group size. Using the tuner on it's optimal setting for that rifle, shoot the same amount of 5 round groups with the same ammo on the same day (or better yet, many groups over many days), and find the average group size there. From there, we can see from a statistical standpoint what performance a tuner has, and we can quantify it.

 

[Texasflyer]

I will say that i reload and i did all my testing with mine at zero for load workup. If i was shooting shorter factory ammo i would probably tune the barrel harmonics, but, and this is just my opinion, but setting proper coal mitigates the vibrations that would cause it to be useful..... i think?

 

[TurboTrout]

Just finished watching this.

These kind of reviews annoy me. First off, there's no initial datum, on how the rifle performs with the factory ammo without the tuner. It's neat to see the POI and group size move around (even if it's only two shots each), but the data is not being provided in the full scope of context for what a tuner is supposed to achieve. He doesn't shoot the 5 round group on camera (just shows a picture), and the data set itself is very limited, to the point of being statistically insignificant.

If I was in the market for a tuner, watching that video provides next to no information for me as a potential consumer. Perhaps there's a perfect opportunity here for someone like Cal Zant of the precision rifle blog, to perform a statistical analysis between tuner vs no tuner and factory ammo. Shoot a bunch of 5 round groups without tuner, and get an average group size. Using the tuner on it's optimal setting for that rifle, shoot the same amount of 5 round groups with the same ammo on the same day (or better yet, many groups over many days), and find the average group size there. From there, we can see from a statistical standpoint what performance a tuner has, and we can quantify it.

Exactly, follow the simple scientific method we all learned in elementary school

 

[rydah]

Just finished watching this.

These kind of reviews annoy me. First off, there's no initial datum, on how the rifle performs with the factory ammo without the tuner. It's neat to see the POI and group size move around (even if it's only two shots each), but the data is not being provided in the full scope of context for what a tuner is supposed to achieve. He doesn't shoot the 5 round group on camera (just shows a picture), and the data set itself is very limited, to the point of being statistically insignificant.

If I was in the market for a tuner, watching that video provides next to no information for me as a potential consumer. Perhaps there's a perfect opportunity here for someone like Cal Zant of the precision rifle blog, to perform a statistical analysis between tuner vs no tuner and factory ammo. Shoot a bunch of 5 round groups without tuner, and get an average group size. Using the tuner on it's optimal setting for that rifle, shoot the same amount of 5 round groups with the same ammo on the same day (or better yet, many groups over many days), and find the average group size there. From there, we can see from a statistical standpoint what performance a tuner has, and we can quantify it.

Don’t want to throw him under the bus but Joel at PRN has a tmb now and might already be planning something like that or might be interested in doing something like that. Best bet is to go donate to his patreon and hit him up with ideas for tuner related content.

@Cjwise5

I want to and will be doing some content like that but people have already told me they feel it’s unfortunately a bit biased because of the source so that’s fine, I’ve organised to outsource some stuff like that here locally so hopefully we can get that stuff done soon.

 

[kthomas]

Don’t want to throw him under the bus but Joel at PRN has a tmb now and might already be planning something like that or might be interested in doing something like that. Best bet is to go donate to his patreon and hit him up with ideas for tuner related content.

@Cjwise5

I want to and will be doing some content like that but people have already told me they feel it’s unfortunately a bit biased because of the source so that’s fine, I’ve organised to outsource some stuff like that here locally so hopefully we can get that stuff done soon.

I would love to see that content!

I will check his patreon account out.

 

[MTB doc]

Just finished watching this.

These kind of reviews annoy me. First off, there's no initial datum, on how the rifle performs with the factory ammo without the tuner. It's neat to see the POI and group size move around (even if it's only two shots each), but the data is not being provided in the full scope of context for what a tuner is supposed to achieve. He doesn't shoot the 5 round group on camera (just shows a picture), and the data set itself is very limited, to the point of being statistically insignificant.

If I was in the market for a tuner, watching that video provides next to no information for me as a potential consumer. Perhaps there's a perfect opportunity here for someone like Cal Zant of the precision rifle blog, to perform a statistical analysis between tuner vs no tuner and factory ammo. Shoot a bunch of 5 round groups without tuner, and get an average group size. Using the tuner on it's optimal setting for that rifle, shoot the same amount of 5 round groups with the same ammo on the same day (or better yet, many groups over many days), and find the average group size there. From there, we can see from a statistical standpoint what performance a tuner has, and we can quantify it.

Not that you don't, at times, have valid individual points, but, pretty much every tuner thread has comments from you always being negative overall re tuners.

Do you realize this?

 

[kthomas]

Not that you don't, at times, have valid individual points, but, pretty much every tuner thread has comments from you always being negative overall re tuners.

Do you realize this?

Not one word of that post of mine you quoted criticized tuners. That post was merely a criticism of how a "review" was conducted.

 

[MTB doc]

I've read your other posts in other threads regarding tuners.

I was just wondering if you realize how you come across...

 

[260284]

Can any of the tuners on the market be used with a suppressor?

 

[iceng]

Can any of the tuners on the market be used with a suppressor?

Yes there's a few which can.

 

[kthomas]

I've read your other posts in other threads regarding tuners.

I was just wondering if you realize how you come across...

I'm actually pretty fascinated with how tuners are becoming "in vogue" in PRS/NRL/etc.

Do I question their utility for our purposes? Yes, I do. I'm not trying to be negative by any means, but I think there are some downsides to tuners that people aren't really talking about. People suggest that you can replace bullet depth seating with a tuner, but I don't understand that argument for a few reasons:

1. The process takes approximately the same amount of time
2. Your bullet seating depth of your ammo won't change over a match, but your tuner adjustment can change if it gets bumped hard enough or comes loose through other means. The field shooting disciplines aren't necessarily friendly on rifles.
3. The process of optimizing a tuner can be confusing and convoluted, even for very experienced shooters. lowlight stated "I have to say the process drove me crazy I was not prepared mentally for wasting this many rounds at 100 yards... it broke my brain" in post #47 in this thread.

It just seems like with more gear, comes more potential for failure. And a device at the end of your barrel that's designed to change POI and group size certainly comes with some potential risk. I'm personally an advocate for keeping things simple and limiting the amount of potential failure points in your system.

I will say that if they are making factory ammo shoot better in rifles as some very well respected shooters are reporting, I think that is really cool. I would love to hear more positive reports about this as more and more tuners designed for our discipline coming to market and getting in shooters hands. This I personally haven't tested, so I'm relying on others reports for this. This is the one argument that I can potentially buy into.

By no means am I trying to shit on tuners, and if tuners work for people, I think that's awesome. Who am I to say that someone's process isn't working for them? I'm simply bringing up the other side to the conversation, which I believe has merits worth discussing (otherwise I wouldn't bring it up). With anything, there's no free lunch. There's always trade-offs, and I think it's worth exploring what trade-offs you may be making in such a choice.

 

[kthomas]

Can any of the tuners on the market be used with a suppressor?

The most obvious one that comes to mind is the Kinetic Energy Solutions Adaptive Tuning System (ATS).

 

[Adam B]

 

[iceng]

Factory ammo, then yes, a tuner is good, which is why rimfire have used them for 40 years. Decent hand load when you know what you are doing, less useful.

Personal findings are if you have a good handload, they do almost nothing. I'm awaiting to travel with one to help fine tune at a different range (multiple hundred or 1000km away).
I did have some weird issues at a range a few years back which I'm returning to this year, so I'll certainly be testing that theory out again to get some data.

I have a theory a tuner only effectively work on one "issue". Seating depth tolerance or powder charge tolerance. I'm yet to gather enough data to confirm or debunk it, however I'm my short findings so far, it seems reasonable (but not provable). If you have a bad velo node, and a bad seating depth node, you will not get to the true potential of the same load with tweaked seating depth, or tweaked powder charge. It does help however.

 

[rydah]

Factory ammo, then yes, a tuner is good, which is why rimfire have used them for 40 years. Decent hand load when you know what you are doing, less useful.

Personal findings are if you have a good handload, they do almost nothing. I'm awaiting to travel with one to help fine tune at a different range (multiple hundred or 1000km away).
I did have some weird issues at a range a few years back which I'm returning to this year, so I'll certainly be testing that theory out again to get some data.

I have a theory a tuner only effectively work on one "issue". Seating depth tolerance or powder charge tolerance. I'm yet to gather enough data to confirm or debunk it, however I'm my short findings so far, it seems reasonable (but not provable). If you have a bad velo node, and a bad seating depth node, you will not get to the true potential of the same load with tweaked seating depth, or tweaked powder charge. It does help however.

We will see how my load holds up and if it needs any fine tuning at monarto.

 

[iceng]

I'll suspect it's just a poa/poi shift, nothing more, but could be wrong. Time will tell. Cya there.

 

[gebhardt02]

I bought one of the OP mentioned ATS tuners. Aaron Hipp has been a friend for quite a while and I wanted to check this thing out. BLUF: I like it!

I use it on my primary match rifle to find tune an already good load just a bit better at 200 yds.

Just last week I changed out the barrel on my Bighorn TL3 to a .223 barrel and of course swapped bolt heads. Just to see what kind of groups I could get with my own bulk loaded ammo with mixed headstamp brass, I put the ATS on as well as a TBAC suppressor. Groups were initially pretty horrible, which was expected. But rolling through the numbers on the ATS that ammo dialed into about 1/2 moa or so. Good enough for positional practice!

I'm thinking about doing a better job of testing before, with ATS only, and ATS plus suppressor this spring or summer. But again, I directly saw the groups come in with non-precision loaded ammo. And I've used it to fine tune my primary gun which I like. I'll continue to use it, but I still do my normal load dev on new barrels to make sure velocities are consistent and the rifle will group up like it should.

I went into the ATS with an open mind having no preconceived ideas of good or bad. I ended up liking the thing.

 

[ifgator]

@gebhardt02 I like your approach. There is going to be bias if you desperately want something to work AND obviously there is bias present when people want it to fail for xyz reasons.
Sometimes our favorite tools are those that simply prove their worth. Or get us laid but whatever.

 

[Dave62677]

Corrected

 

[NiteQwill]

So I want get the ATS , but they said it won’t compatible with the area419 brake.

Says who? They work fine. I know mine does... It's awesome.

 

[Dave62677]

Says who? They work fine. I know mine does... It's awesome.
View attachment 7590759
View attachment 7590760

I mis-read it, thanks

 

[flounderv2]

This got sent to me so figured I would chime in.
First, the pic the Op posted is a gen 1 model and not the current model
Second, that Rubber donut that posted is just that, its a rubber donut. Precision tuners are moving wieghts in increments measured in .001". If you think youre doing that with one of those rubber donuts, youre wrong. Throw that rubber POS away or use it as a dog toy. Finding a tune with it is about the same as winning the lottery.

For those that dont know much about or have experience with tuners, let me try and help.
-- The comment about them being "in vogue" is comical at best. PRS shooters dont run gear just to run it, especially top level shooters and especially gear that can influence rifle performance. Shooters running them are running them because they see the benefit. Morgun King is one of the top shooters in PRS and has Won 2 2day matches this year and runs the ATS tuner. He wouldnt run it if he didnt have trust in it.
With that being said let me give you some benefits of a tuner.
1. It can make load development much easier and less time consuming. You can pretty much pick a seating depth of your choice and powder charge of your choice and use the tuner for group sizes - Yes it holds to distance if you tune at 100. This saves significant time at the reloading bench and the load dev process. More detailed reloading processes and you can get even better results. With component shortages these days, spending less time and ammo for load dev is more appealing now than ever.
2. When traveling for matches, a load can and many times does change performance from your home location to the event location. With a tuner, you can dial it back into the 1 hole groups you expect at the event. Without a tuner youre stuck with what youve got or can guess and try seating bullets a bit deeper at the range assuming you brought that gear with you.
3. The added confidence you get from taking a rifle that wasnt performing well on zero day but still having the ability to dial back in goes a long way during a match. Eliminate as many variables as possible during an event because the last thing you want to do is be questioning if your miss was because of you, wind, or your load.
4. Ability to tune the same ammo to shoot tiny groups across multiple rifles. No loading for a primary and a backup rifle. Just adjust the tuner on each to shoot the same ammo into tiny groups on both. If you have to switch to a backup gun just adjust the speed in your kestrel and roll with the same ammo.
5. Ability to tune the rifle while using a suppressor. The same ammo rarely shoots the same when switching from a can to a brake
6. Ability to tune factory ammo to shoot like handloads.
7. Ability to get bolt gun like performance out of AR platforms using the tuner. - Yep, been tested many times and works the same as on a bolt gun.
8. Rimfire - How about getting that $6 a box ammo to shoot like that $20 a box ammo that was selected when you sent your rifle to the test tunnel for lot matching. Buy more ammo for less and shoot more for less. Worry less about lot matching and just dial in your ammo and enjoy more time shooting while spending less.

 

[nutation]

I tried the Harrell's tuner brake, but I didn't see any significant improvement, and it would just shoot loose.