Rifle weight for tactical match

[Ballistic Artist]

Hey All,
What do you think is a good weight for a bolt gun for tactical long range matches like the Snipers hide cup, Bushnell Braul etc. My rifle weighs 17lbs with 5rds in it and a bipod. Is that too heavy?? Its all Ive got and I was just wondering. Thanks.

 

[MosesTheTank]

My feeling on this, and it applies to any number of sports, is that if your rifle and everything hanging off of it weighs XXlbs and you think it's too heavy and maybe needs to weigh a bit less because you are out of breath, your heart rate is thumping hard enough that the target is bouncing, and the sweat rolling down your forehead is stinging your eyes... I ask you this, is it easier (and less expensive) to find a way to drop 5lbs off of your rifle, or off of your waist? My guess is that you set your rifle up to be as accurate as possible, and that's why it weighs what it does. To be fair, I have been adventure racing with people who carried far more gear than necessary and maybe they thought they would encounter Mt McKinley along the way, and I've played hockey with guys who were so padded up they looked like the Michelin man. Being over geared can definitely be a problem. But you need to evaluate yourself AND the rifle.

 

[Rob01]

Is that too heavy??

Is it? Not for me as it's about what mine weigh but it's up to you.

 

[Lukas Koukal]

Quite depends on what you´re able to lug around. I just finished an alu chassis for my RPA - the chassis alone weighs roughly 5.5lbs - compared to the original 1.5lbs robertson superlight stock, that´s heavy. But regardless of the numbers, the rifle as a whole is much better balanced now. I won´t be changing back any soon. Point is, don´t judge your equipment based off a single factor.

 

[blurry6]

I echo what Moses said; your rifle system's weight is what it is,... if you feel confident in its' capabilities and like the way it works, roll with it and invest your time in P90X to increase your strength and stamina. Also, try some "out of the box" thinking in regard to how you shoot/wrangle your rifle i.e. think about utilizing beanie bags, shooting bags/pillows to help support your shooting. Try tucking a beanie bag under your support arm to give it a little boost when shooting off-hand. Try placing a bag under your foot when shooting off a low barricade to raise your knee just enough to allow your elbow to rest on it,... whatever you can do to increase the support and stability of your rifle,... go crazy! I've seen guys running around the COF with pillows and bags strapped all over them for this purpose - it works!

That said, there are tons of options available to shooters that can both decrease weight and increase capabilities. I don't know what you're running for a stock, but from the fact that your rig is 17-lbs, it might be something to look at - there are a plethora of chassis systems and light-weight stocks available. While I love the feel of a McMillan A4, I'd never run with one in a practical match as the thing is just a beast to huff around the COF and its' "feel" just isn't that much better than anything else.

Also, do you REALLY NEED that 25+ magnification scope with the 56mm objective,...? I'd say, no,.. you don't. I just sold my Premier 5-25x56 as I found that it wasn't ever making its' way to my rifle. Yeah, it was a great scope, but it was just too much for practical matches,... it would go great on a serious long-range rig, but not for my 260 or 308 where the bulk of shooting is off-hand or cramming the barrel through tiny holes in barricades. Remember that you're not shooting groups in a Benchrest competition, you're shooting at targets that are typically at least a minute-of-angle within 800-yards. Sure there are those stages that are exceptions, but for the most part you could get by with something as 'measly' as a 10x optic.

While a bit drastic, but something to consider in the future is your barrel - the heaviest "accessory" on your rifle. Again, do you REALLY NEED the 26" heavy contour barrel on your rig? Again,... no,... not for 99.9% of the practical matches you're going to shoot. Yeah, there will always be those whack-a-doo stages the organizer comes up with where you're shooting out past 1K-yards, but for the most part, your shots will be under 800-yards. While it's great to eek out every bit of velocity you can out of your rifle system, the trade-off in weight and handling can make its' pursuit a waste of time. You might also consider a fluted barrel. Don't believe the myths that fluting will also increase rigidity and aid in cooling,... it does neither,... and in the case of rigidity, it actually decreases rigidity,... but oh well,... it definitely decreases weight and can transform a formerly front-heavy, off-balanced rig into a quick-handling, stable shooter,... something to consider. Again, this is a bit of a drastic measure to simply decrease weight, but eventually you're going to either shoot out your current barrel or want to change cartridges and you might consider these factors when spec'ing out a new barrel. In regard to rifle systems, the thing to remember is there are ALWAYS trade-offs,... there is NO panacea. You simply have to pick your 'must haves' and damn the consequences.

I'm currently running a 20" AIAE straight contour in 308 with an S&B 3-20x50, and atlas bipod,... not "dainty" by any means, but its' only 14.5lbs,... which is manageable for me,...

Ry

 

[triceratops3]

I agree with what has already been said. If it's too heavy for you then it's too heavy for you. Some people can probably lug around a 17lb+ rifle all day and make shooting it off hand look easy but for others that can get heavy pretty quick and then they'll just be miserable carrying it around. My rifle weighs around 17lbs and it is manageable to carry around, but is a pain to try to shoot off hand and in positions other than prone (even though I don't really shoot off hand). I've been working out and trying to increase my stamina and it certainly has become easier to carry. But since I want it to be my main comp gun I'm chopping the barrel several inches to drop the weight a little and make it less front heavy and more balanced. But now when I rebarrel I think I'm definitely going to be getting a lighter contour barrel since I'd rather save weight with my gear whenever I can, even if I can carry the load.

 

[Ballistic Artist]

Thanks for the info. I definately agree with you all on a barrel thats tooooooooo heavy and I must admit that Im one of the people who went too far. Im running a bartlein #9HV countour at 26''. TOOOOO MUCH!! I should have went with a #7. I dont have enough money to get a new bbl for it and its only got 400 rounds through it. Ok, now Ive been pondering the thought of chopping it... 20'' 22''? I went a little over the fine line between a benchrest gun and a tactical long range rifle. NOW, my question to you all is, would it be worth cutting down?? Im runnin a 208gr. AMAX at 2990fps with H1000. Nice load. (my rifle uses the same chamber as the XM2010 and has a very long lead and throat so no over pressure signs have been seen) Am I going to lose a ton of velocity? Will it matter? How much would my max effective range suffer if I did this? It would be more handy but would the amount of weight reduction be worth it? thanks.

 

[blurry6]

Is this a 300 Win Mag? It sounds pretty cookin' for a 308. As for what your velocity loss will be, you can do a ballpark using the "fairly" accurate figure of 50-fps per inch of barrel length +/- a few fps,... In the case of a 20" barrel, figure around 2700fps - pretty respectable, if you ask me! I'm running 175's at 2550(!), but it's ohhh sooo accurate that I hate to push it. Regardless of the actual loss in fps, you'll inevitably have to modify your load to achieve the accuracy you want,... That might mean an even HOTTER load than you're running now (doubtful), but it might also mean less propellant,... which would mean an even lower fps.

In any case, chop it to 24" and see how it feels/shoots,... you can always chop it again and work with it again,... and again,... and again,... Next year at this time you'll probably be running an 18" barrel

Ry

 

[Rob01]

Next year at this time you'll probably be running an 18" barrel

Ry

Not if he feels like being competitive.

 

[blurry6]

Hah!... minor detail but he'll be a ringer for the "Lightest Rifle" trophy at the awards ceremony.

 

[raptor99]

For tactical shooting I really like the Sendero contour in a M40 style stock, with a good 4.5x14 scope or something in that power range. I don't like the big bell scopes or the broken wrist style of stocks. They are great for prone shooting but when shooting in all kinds of positions I really tend to go back to the classic style of stocks, they are lighter and easier to shoot in awkward positons. I, like most, started off with the heavy profiles and boat paddle stocks but after lugging them up an down hills a lighter rifle is a lot easier to handle and a lot nicer to lug around for this old man.,

 

[Ballistic Artist]

Sorry. Yes its a 300 win mag. So basically, leave the gun alone and start working out. Ok, makes sense to me. Im not in very good shape.

 

[blurry6]

Sorry. Yes its a 300 win mag. So basically, leave the gun alone and start working out. Ok, makes sense to me. Im not in very good shape.

I'd recommend both! We can all do a little more training; be it shooting or endurance,... but you can also chop your barrel if you feel it would be an advantage to you in handling. Hey, if you're dead-set on maintaining your current velocity (why, I don't know) then by all means keep it the way it is and start working out, but if you want a more manageable rifle that will be even more handy once you've added 10-lbs of muscle, then start choppin' that barrel! If you're looking to keep this rifle shooting out to a mile before dropping subsonic, then keep it the way it is,... as long as you realize it's WAY overkill for most practical matches you'll encounter. Sure, flatter shooting is, well,... flatter shooting - a good thing,... but at the expense of getting off that extra shot under the clock or your so winded from huffing it to the next position you can't get a hit,... only you can answer that question.

On second thought,... try working out first - you can't lose doing that,... if you find that it's not working out for you on the COF,... think about getting another rig to run with or chopping off the barrel,... Best of luck!

Ry

 

[JGorski]

Hey All,
What do you think is a good weight for a bolt gun for tactical long range matches like the Snipers hide cup, Bushnell Braul etc. My rifle weighs 17lbs with 5rds in it and a bipod. Is that too heavy?? Its all Ive got and I was just wondering. Thanks.

Id say thats about what mine weighs with a bipod and shells in the mag. If thats what you got, run with it, I would. But, to shoot this rifle off-hand, forget about it, way too fucking heavy for my skinny arms. Im using it for 600BR, though.

 

[Ballistic Artist]

I have also thought about getting a brake put on it. Ok heres one, what do you all think of, cut barrel to 23'' and install brake. Would still be a bit shorter and it wont gain any weight by putting the brake on it. Do you think that 23'' is a good compromise between handling but still long enough as to not lose too much velocity? Im looking at my 300WM as a 1500 yard gun. Would it still be able to shoot that far accurately with a 23'' barrel instead of its current 26" length? Would accuracy change/suffer at all? Also, it does not seem like bbl lengths are ever "odd" numbers. Is there a reason for that? Should I only have a "even" number barrel length? Thanks.

 

[blurry6]

It doesn't really matter what length (odd or even) you choose, but it will change both your velocity and the accuracy of your rifle,... whether it's for the better or not is the question. You'll have to tweak your load to deliver the best accuracy possible as it WILL CHANGE with the finish length you decide upon,.. brake or no brake. Again, just know that you WILL have to develop a new load for it no matter what,... which isn't that big of a deal unless it doesn't seem to shoot anything you load for it,... in which case, you might wanna chop another inch off and try it again. I don't think you'll have too much trouble developing a load to reach out to 1500. I wouldn't get too caught up in needing to have screaming velocity,... better to have an accurate rifle than a fire-breather, any day, all day. Velocity is nice, but it doesn't mean a thing if it doesn't hit the target.

Ry

 

[VKC]

Or you could get a DTA rifle. It is heavy but balance is so much better. It is easy for me to shoot off-hand with 56mm objective scope, heavy contour 26" barrel, bipod ,etc.

 

[blurry6]

It doesn't really matter what length (odd or even) you choose, but it will change both your velocity and the accuracy of your rifle,... whether it's for the better or not is the question. You'll have to tweak your load to deliver the best accuracy possible as it WILL CHANGE with the finish length you decide upon,.. brake or no brake. Again, just know that you WILL have to develop a new load for it no matter what,... which isn't that big of a deal unless it doesn't seem to shoot anything you load for it,... in which case, you might wanna chop another inch off and try it again. I don't think you'll have too much trouble developing a load to reach out to 1500. I wouldn't get too caught up in needing to have screaming velocity,... better to have an accurate rifle than a fire-breather, any day, all day. Velocity is nice, but it doesn't mean a thing if it doesn't hit the target.

Here's a pretty accurate load I have for my 260 Rem,... Kinda proud of it:


Ry

 

[JB02]

I have also thought about getting a brake put on it. Ok heres one, what do you all think of, cut barrel to 23'' and install brake. Would still be a bit shorter and it wont gain any weight by putting the brake on it. Do you think that 23'' is a good compromise between handling but still long enough as to not lose too much velocity? Im looking at my 300WM as a 1500 yard gun. Would it still be able to shoot that far accurately with a 23'' barrel instead of its current 26" length? Would accuracy change/suffer at all? Also, it does not seem like bbl lengths are ever "odd" numbers. Is there a reason for that? Should I only have a "even" number barrel length? Thanks.

Leave your gun alone. Use that money to practice your shooting instead. It's not like you're going to shoot this thing offhand; you'll be in some type of supported position. Match rifles are long. 26" is a good length for a 300 win mag. If you're worried about lugging around a heavy pig, then get yourself a heavy duty biathalon sling to distribute the load on your body better. If anyone on this forum knows what they're talking about [MENTION=70]Rob01[/MENTION] does; listen to him.

 

[2Shots]

Shoot a few matches and carry it all day along with your other gear, slop through the mud, shoot it slung, off hand, from a perch, tree trunk, truck bed, you'll know if it's too heavy for you after a few matches, believe me!

 

[MacM11]

The long and heavy is OK. For practice, weld an eyelet on to an anvil and attach it to your sling. Pick a boulder of your choice and place it in your pack. That's the way I practice---laugh a minute.

Attend some classes at Rifles only. Crawl thru the rat and mouse traps with your long and heavy rifle like I do and live with it. My already bad language really got 'perfected'.

 

[JGorski]

I have also thought about getting a brake put on it. Ok heres one, what do you all think of, cut barrel to 23'' and install brake. Would still be a bit shorter and it wont gain any weight by putting the brake on it. Do you think that 23'' is a good compromise between handling but still long enough as to not lose too much velocity? Im looking at my 300WM as a 1500 yard gun. Would it still be able to shoot that far accurately with a 23'' barrel instead of its current 26" length? Would accuracy change/suffer at all? Also, it does not seem like bbl lengths are ever "odd" numbers. Is there a reason for that? Should I only have a "even" number barrel length? Thanks.

Id keep it at 26", youll lose too much velocity if u cut it to 23"

 

[idaho1]

Good info here..

 

[Ballistic Artist]

Leave your gun alone. Use that money to practice your shooting instead. It's not like you're going to shoot this thing offhand; you'll be in some type of supported position. Match rifles are long. 26" is a good length for a 300 win mag. If you're worried about lugging around a heavy pig, then get yourself a heavy duty biathalon sling to distribute the load on your body better. If anyone on this forum knows what they're talking about [MENTION=70]Rob01[/MENTION] does; listen to him.

But I DOOOOO Need to be able to shoot it offhand. And I can now, for about 3 to 4 aimed shots. (Depends on how I was carryin it before the shot) Is this enough for tac match? Also, Ive thought about puttin a brake on it for a while now. Prone shooting starts to make my back twinge after about 15 rds. (Broke the damn thing on a dirtbike, which hit a dumb Bitch in a car that turned left in front of me)

 

[blurry6]

But I DOOOOO Need to be able to shoot it offhand. And I can now, for about 3 to 4 aimed shots. (Depends on how I was carryin it before the shot) Is this enough for tac match? Also, Ive thought about puttin a brake on it for a while now. Prone shooting starts to make my back twinge after about 15 rds. (Broke the damn thing on a dirtbike, which hit a dumb Bitch in a car that turned left in front of me)

I think the other posters are right,... it's a 300 Win-Mag,.. it's meant to shoot WAY out there. I'd suggest you get yourself another rig, a short-action, for competition. 308, 260, 6.5CM, 6.5x47, 243, 6CM, 6x47, 6BR, 6Rem,... the choices are endless. Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods, but most of the comps in my area don't allow magnum or long-action ANYTHING as they tend to beat the hell out of the steel and the RO's are constantly having to reset (read: repair) stages. Keep your 300-Winny the way it is. Sounds like you've been fortunate enough to have worked up a screamin' load that will reach WAY out there - good for you! However, that doesn't make it a great competition gun if it's a beast to lug around the COF.

Ry

 

[Ballistic Artist]

I think the other posters are right,... it's a 300 Win-Mag,.. it's meant to shoot WAY out there. I'd suggest you get yourself another rig, a short-action, for competition. 308, 260, 6.5CM, 6.5x47, 243, 6CM, 6x47, 6BR, 6Rem,... the choices are endless. Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods, but most of the comps in my area don't allow magnum or long-action ANYTHING as they tend to beat the hell out of the steel and the RO's are constantly having to reset (read: repair) stages. Keep your 300-Winny the way it is. Sounds like you've been fortunate enough to have worked up a screamin' load that will reach WAY out there - good for you! However, that doesn't make it a great competition gun if it's a beast to lug around the COF.

Ry

True. Im definately planning on building a 6.5CM someday. But Im not going to be able to afford the $4000+ that I will need for that rig for a very long time. And I dont need to punch out to 2000 yards with this one. Thats going to eventually be the job for my 338-378 Weatherby Mag that Im also going to build. I want my 300wm to be a bit more handy too. To me, its a bit too heavy and long for what it is.

What do you all think the shortest length would be to still have a 1500 Yard effective range with a load that currently moves the 208gr AMAX at 2992fps with H1000 out of a 26" 1-10twist 5R barrel? 24"? 22" Is anyone runnin shorter barreled 300WM rifles with 208gr AMAX and H1000? hows your performance?

 

[blurry6]

Just running your numbers through Exbal with Hg @ 29.85, 65F, 50%RH (this is pretty close to sea-level and splitting the middle in regard to the other variables), you're current load drops subsonic around 1750-yards. Figure the "rule-o-thumb" of 50-fps per inch would mean that you could lop-off up to 5" of barrel (4" would be a safer bet) before your round would drop sub-sonic just beyond 1500-yards (velocity = 1136-fps @ 1500-yards). Keep in mind, these are just guesstimates and real-world data will more than likely toss these figures into the garbage can, but it should be pretty close. As you know, nothin' says the screamin' load you use currently will be as accurate as what you have now,... in fact, I can GUARANTEE that you'll have to adjust it up/down in order for it to perform. 4" would probably be the safest as you're not sure at this point which way you'll need to go.

Ry

 

[fusiachi]

...I ask you this, is it easier (and less expensive) to find a way to drop 5lbs off of your rifle, or off of your waist?...

True story.

 

[vtb]

Rem 700 sa .308 xcr compact 18,5" + Leupold CQBSS + carbon stock = 8 pounds 11.3 ounces
All the rest is for the waist reduction.