rifle weight; heavier vs lighter

[corey4]

this is a carry over from the scout hide that i started. i found the info and advice helpful. since i am still in the midst of trying out different configurations, i wanted to keep this alive.








i'm not sure if this belongs in the stupid questions forum or here, so i'll try here.

i know heavier barrels heat up slower and cool slower, heavier barrels are more rigid and can be more accurate/forgiving, heavier rifles are more forgiving and soak up recoil, lighter rifles are easier to pack around all day, and smaller calibers are easier to shoot than bigger. this is a question about over all rifle weight during a stage or for those of you that have actually had to use the weapon for it's intended purpose on duty. i have not been to a PRS match yet, but want to get involved and put together a rifle. right now, my rifle weighs 18lbs (GAP hospitaller; deep fluted M40 24" 308, T4A, razor gen2, tbac 30P-1, atlas bipod), and it's a heavy SOB. if i just shot from a stationary position on a square range like i do now and had no ambitions to get into PRS, then no big deal.

for all intense purposes lets go with a 308 for the discussion, reason being that most of own one, all of us have shot one, all of us are familiar with it and what it feels like during recoil.



for those of you that do the PRS matches, do you prefer a heavier rifle for the reasons listed above, or a lighter rifle to be able to move quicker from different positions during a stage? lets say for shits and giggles the stage has you in prone, then to a roof top type position, then to a barricade from standing slightly hunched over, then to sitting. i know everything is a compromise, so where would the collective thought/experience rather make compromises? a heavier rifle that is easier to shoot but slower to move from position to position, or lighter rifle that isn't as forgiving, but much quicker to move from position to position.

i know i know...i can hear it now...hit the gym pussy! lol

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/18/2016
(2 votes)

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If the difference between an 18 lb rifle and a 12 lb rifle slows you down, then you know you can hear it now...........

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mercracingXGunny Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/18/2016

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I had my rifle built heavy. 20lb with everything but ammo. From what I know, most of the shots are at least somewhat supported. There are very few freehand shots. That's why I built heavy. I would rather the rifle stays put when I shoot.
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JBMdc

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/18/2016

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I like my rifles heavy. Mine may not be the heaviest out there, but it was built just for matches. I usually run heavy MTU barrels 24-26" with my heavy SS suppressor, large 5-25 scopes, in my macmillan stock which isn't really too heavy. All in all my current setup is about 17#s. I prefer as little recoil as possible when shooting from anything but the prone position. There are a ton of guys doing quite the opposite and doing very well in the PRS. It is just preference, we have guys with short 20" barrels and CF stocks and others with 32" barrels and as much weight as they can put on their rifles. A good friend of mine has a 6xc that weighs about 22#s and has very little felt recoil. Another friend of mine has a 6xc with a 20" barrel and weighs roughly 13#s and shoots very well.



I prefer heavy, but not 20#s of heavy. 16+ and I am happy.

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corey4NFA

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/18/2016 Last edited 12/18/2016 by corey4NFA

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308pirate wrote:
If the difference between an 18 lb rifle and a 12 lb rifle slows you down, then you know you can hear it now...........​

it's hard to convey sarcasm in a typed message (which is what you may have been doing as well), which is what i was doing when when i said "lol" already knowing that a few people would chime in with that remark. also, i have no idea if 6lbs would slow me down or help speed up transitions, which is why i am picking the brains of people that have been there done that.

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snarkscarbine

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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I'm not a prs shooter, but I have rifles that are lighter, and others that are heavier. My heaviest has a CF tube on it, though, so take this how you will. Going from 12-18 is a 50% increase in weight. While it may not be the end of the world, it's a statistically significant increase in weight that affects all aspects of the shooting experience, some for the better, some for the worse. Obviously recoil is one area that the heavier gun wins out, or just in the way that it naturally steadies itself. The lighter gun requires less exertion to move, which puts one in a bit better state when trigger pulling time comes. The lighter gun often balances better, which contributes even more to its perceived maneuverability. Building any rifle is an exercise in compromises. I like lighter guns partly because I'm not a huge guy, and partly because I find the technology involved in building a rifle that looks and shoots the same but is 40% lighter, pretty fascinating.

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NateVAX18 MONTHS
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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Definitely going to follow this thread. My rifle is 16 pounds with everything on it and I'm looking to cut that down to 13 pounds ideally.

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pineoakXGunny Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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tag

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GenochristXFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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I have heavy rifles and light ones; long ones and short ones. My current main prs type rifle is about 16lbs and wears a 27" barrel. It's a 260ai that's shooting 140s. Recoil control is not a problem from compromised positions. The added length (ultra 7 included) has not cost me any points yet and the added speed might have gained me a couple. Now I'm not that small of a guy and I'm in fairly decent shape. That also has a lot to do with it. If your a short fat guy that might go into your decision also.
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6x47SteveXFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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For my old rifle, the last two barrels made up, were 30" in heavy varmint contour and the other 21.75" in medium palma. Both in 6x47L.

The 30" was made up for one specific match which didn't require much walking or positional and also required a second follow up shot within 10 seconds. It was perfect for that match, the rifle weighed 22 lbs, braked as well and was easy to spot my misses with. A real pleasure to shoot!

The 21.75" barrel I had made up just to have something useful for other types of matches and hunting. I left it unbraked. The rifle still weighed 15 lbs scoped though and I was surprised at how much more movement and scope upset this setup provided. I definitely didn't like shooting this barrel as much but it was at least handy when needed.

I did have some 26" medium palma braked 6x47 barrels on the same rifle which seemed like a near perfect compromise as a all around match rifle.

I think how strong and fit you are is part of the equation when it comes to a rifle's weight. What isn't a big deal for one guy is not practical for the next and this all depends on the match type and COF's.

My current rifle weighs 19 lbs with scope and 28" barrel, it's a couple pounds heavier than I want. I'm 5' 6", pretty old, in okay shape, but I can walk around with it for miles and it works well for everything except offhand shooting. Not quite optimal for me so I think I'll do 25" medium palma next time.

Lifting weights helps immensely! Those rifles got a lot lighter feeling. I was real proud of myself there for a couple years. The problem is sticking with it. 2017...

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morganlamprechtXFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016 Last edited 12/19/2016 by morganlamprecht

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ill chime in on the heavy side...have 3 different barrels for my AT topped with a gen 2 razor...heaviest is a 26" 6mm MTU...think the total package weighs like 21 lbs or so IIRC...ive run it with a can (omega), dont prefer the can so i just go braked now...the ONLY time i feel its a disadvantage is the unsupported positional stages (standing, kneeling, sitting) and those are few and far between, and my scores on those stages are usually average or slightly better than the field...last match that had sitting (425 yds on and 10" plate, i hit 5/10, and that was missing 4 out of the first 5 because i dialed the wrong dope like an idiot...once corrected i hit 4 of the last 5...if there is any artificial front support at all, that goes away and the weight never crosses my mind...im not a small guy at all (6'5 230 lbs) so take that into consideration also

speed isnt an issue either...running it thru the mouse trap at rifles only which is about the tightest prop ive had to navigate to date, im still as faster than most everyone else...another guy who is usually the fastest i know thru the trap also runs a similar setup

as long as you can see your misses from most any position id say its heavy enough (so it varies from shooter to shooter)...if you cant, and you have a day where your winds calls are just a little off, you can waste a bunch of ammo and never make any progress...seen it happen to shooters many times...send 10 nds down range and miss every single one .2 left, but never correct cause they werent seeing them

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buffybuster

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016
(1 vote)

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IMO what matters more than just weight is how the rifle balances. An 18lb rifle that is well balanced is going to handle better and feel lighter than a 14lb rifle that is poorly balanced.

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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buffybuster wrote:
IMO what matters more than just weight is how the rifle balances. An 18lb rifle that is well balanced is going to handle better and feel lighter than a 14lb rifle that is poorly balanced.​

Bingo. When I shot service rifle my AR weighted in at 17 lbs +/- with all the lead inside of it and the heavy under the handguards barrel. But I could shoot it offhand for 20 rounds without undue fatigue and the rifle pointed very, very well because the balance point was right at the ejection port (between my hands).

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corey4NFA

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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308pirate wrote:

buffybuster wrote:
IMO what matters more than just weight is how the rifle balances. An 18lb rifle that is well balanced is going to handle better and feel lighter than a 14lb rifle that is poorly balanced.​

Bingo. When I shot service rifle my AR weighted in at 17 lbs +/- with all the lead inside of it and the heavy under the handguards barrel. But I could shoot it offhand for 20 rounds without undue fatigue and the rifle pointed very, very well because the balance point was right at the ejection port (between my hands).​

this was actually going to be my next question, balance. where should the balance point be; grip, magwell,? i'm assuming a little ass heavy is better than a little front heavy?

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morganlamprechtXFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016
(1 vote)

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i try to balance all mine right in front of the magwell...works well with barricades and where i attach my tripod

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JBMdc

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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morganlamprecht wrote:
i try to balance all mine right in front of the magwell...works well with barricades and where i attach my tripod​

This is pretty spot on. If this rifle is to be used for PRS shooting having the balance point to where the rifle can rest on most obstacales is very beneficial.

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JADEprecision

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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I used to be of similar mindset and ran heavy guns for years. My first two years shooting PRS I ran 6.5 Creed through an 18+ lb. gun. I became tired of it. It's not just maneuvering it in and through obstacles, it's lugging it and everything else around all day, over several days. I'm 43, 5'10”, 160 and have arthritis in neck & shoulders etc. This year I switched to a lighter gun, at 12-lbs and it is certainly noticable and appreciated! Both guns were/are balanced at the same spot, and the lighter gun is just as, if not more, accurate.

I also finally joined a gym, so getting stronger and going with a lighter gun is a win-win for me. These days I don't see the light guns giving up anything to the heavies. YMMV.

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smh20502XFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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corey4NFA wrote:

308pirate wrote:


Bingo. When I shot service rifle my AR weighted in at 17 lbs +/- with all the lead inside of it and the heavy under the handguards barrel. But I could shoot it offhand for 20 rounds without undue fatigue and the rifle pointed very, very well because the balance point was right at the ejection port (between my hands).​

this was actually going to be my next question, balance. where should the balance point be; grip, magwell,? i'm assuming a little ass heavy is better than a little front heavy?​

The balance point should be where ever it needs to be in order to have an easily mounted weapon that is quickly repeatable. What works for me has zero to do with what YOU need. Keep in mind, a rifle that is well balanced for unsupported prone may suck for working around a squatting shot.

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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I don't see any downsides to having a long gun (any long gun) to be balanced between the hands. It makes them more dynamic yet more stable, and makes them seem lighter than they really are.

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reloader112XFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/19/2016

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Heavy and light is a relative term, relative to the size and strength of the shooter. A gun that is too heavy for your size and strength will slow you down, certainly in un-supported positions but also maneuvering the beast from position to position, and we all know that these are timed stages so if you lose time in movement, you lose opportunity to make a shot which translate to potentially a lower score.

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JBMdc

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016

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reloader112 wrote:


Heavy and light is a relative term, relative to the size and strength of the shooter. A gun that is too heavy for your size and strength will slow you down, certainly in un-supported positions but also maneuvering the beast from position to position, and we all know that these are timed stages so if you lose time in movement, you lose opportunity to make a shot which translate to potentially a lower score.​

Pretty good advise. However I would still prefer a heavier rifle to help with spotting misses and quick follow up shots. If this slows me down, I would still rather have 5-6 solid hits than rush through a 10 point stage and finish with 3-5 or so points. Speed comes from skill, not the other way around.

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016 Last edited 12/20/2016 by davisj3537

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I'm very new to PRS and this may come off that way, but this hobby is expensive as fukk. Buy a heavy chassis and a light chassis to see for yourself. Then sell what you don't like....maybe both. It isn't like you're gonna lose 25% selling a once used chassis. Like you couldn't use an extra chassis/stock for another rifle anyway. Better yet, just shoot a bunch of different setups at your local range. This sport is pretty friendly and a lot of guys will let you put a round or two down range for nothing.

Shot my first PRS style "match" ( I use that term loosely) recently with a nearly 15lb 30-06 w/ 28" barrel and would have liked some extra weight for stability. I'm in very good shape though. Again, noob here so take it with some salt.

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BallisticPrimate

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016 Last edited 12/20/2016 by BallisticPrimate

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I can't imagine I'll ever run anything over 15lbs bar a magnum. My match set up is 14.5lbs unloaded but fully equipped (Bipod etc). 26" 6.5x47 Surgeon in a Manners T5. A good brake provides all the recoil mitigation needed in this calibre bracket. I have a 12lb .308 and have never had a problem spotting shots with the little bastard brake.

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corey4NFA

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016 Last edited 12/20/2016 by corey4NFA

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davisj3537 wrote:
I'm very new to PRS and this may come off that way, but this hobby is expensive as fukk. Buy a heavy chassis and a light chassis to see for yourself. Then sell what you don't like....maybe both. It isn't like you're gonna lose 25% selling a once used chassis. Like you couldn't use an extra chassis/stock for another rifle anyway. Better yet, just shoot a bunch of different setups at your local range. This sport is pretty friendly and a lot of guys will let you put a round or two down range for nothing.

Shot my first PRS style "match" ( I use that term loosely) recently with a nearly 15lb 30-06 w/ 28" barrel and would have liked some extra weight for stability. I'm in very good shape though. Again, noob here so take it with some salt.​

i have a razor gen2, (i had an AMG until i got busted by the warden, i sold it because she was bitching about "priorities" lol) T4, a T4A (there's a 1.8lb difference between the 2), mcree, and on thursday i'll have a krg W3. i also have 2 BAs to pick from; a 20" 5R and my GAP hospitaller to mix and match and see what i might come up with. as far as the local range, i've never seen anyone at either of the ranges i belong to with setups like we have, mostly just hunting setups.



what i want to do is build a barricade to take to the range with me and all of the parts and spend a day mixing and matching.

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reloader112XFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016

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JBMdc wrote:

reloader112 wrote:


Heavy and light is a relative term, relative to the size and strength of the shooter. A gun that is too heavy for your size and strength will slow you down, certainly in un-supported positions but also maneuvering the beast from position to position, and we all know that these are timed stages so if you lose time in movement, you lose opportunity to make a shot which translate to potentially a lower score.​

Pretty good advise. However I would still prefer a heavier rifle to help with spotting misses and quick follow up shots. If this slows me down, I would still rather have 5-6 solid hits than rush through a 10 point stage and finish with 3-5 or so points. Speed comes from skill, not the other way around.​

As with everything in life, there is this “sweet spot” and this is no different. For every increase or decrease in weight you gain something and at the same time lose something – the key is finding this “sweet spot” for you. I agree spotting fall of shots is important but this can be done with a reasonable weight rifle equipped with a good brake.



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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016 Last edited 12/20/2016 by davisj3537

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corey4NFA wrote:

davisj3537 wrote:
I'm very new to PRS and this may come off that way, but this hobby is expensive as fukk. Buy a heavy chassis and a light chassis to see for yourself. Then sell what you don't like....maybe both. It isn't like you're gonna lose 25% selling a once used chassis. Like you couldn't use an extra chassis/stock for another rifle anyway. Better yet, just shoot a bunch of different setups at your local range. This sport is pretty friendly and a lot of guys will let you put a round or two down range for nothing.

Shot my first PRS style "match" ( I use that term loosely) recently with a nearly 15lb 30-06 w/ 28" barrel and would have liked some extra weight for stability. I'm in very good shape though. Again, noob here so take it with some salt.​

i have a razor gen2, (i had an AMG until i got busted by the warden, i sold it because she was bitching about "priorities" lol) T4, a T4A (there's a 1.8lb difference between the 2), mcree, and on thursday i'll have a krg W3. i also have 2 BAs to pick from; a 20" 5R and my GAP hospitaller to mix and match and see what i might come up with. as far as the local range, i've never seen anyone at either of the ranges i belong to with setups like we have, mostly just hunting setups.



what i want to do is build a barricade to take to the range with me and all of the parts and spend a day mixing and matching.​

Had a good laugh at the warden comment. I guess I'm pretty spoiled being at a 1000yd range all the time.



It sounds like you have all the tools to play around with it and see what you like best. Quite honestly it sounds like one hell of a fun day at the range to me. Enjoy it man.





Edit: BTW how did you like the AMG? I've got a pair ordered, but it'll be another 5 months:/

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BallisticPrimate

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016 Last edited 12/20/2016 by BallisticPrimate

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Thinking more about this thread I recon the question of weight lends itself to one of Frank's reviews/breakdowns. Get two rigs in the same chambering - one lightweight (say 10-12lbs) and another pig (18lbs+). Run them through various courses of fire and note what impact weight has on accuracy and maneuverability etc.

This seems to be one of thoese questions that pops up every so often and guys are continuously tweaking their builds with the expansion of the PRS.

Obviously the issue of weight is largely subjective but I'm sure there would be interest in how far an experienced shooter could push the envelope with regards to cutting weight. All the more relevant with the arrival of carbon wrapped barrels and titanium actions etc.

Frank - if you could throw this together in the next day or so that would be just swell

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VargmatXSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016

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As for myself, I figured that I would change some things up going into next years season.
So I sold my SSG3000 which was an 18ish pound set up and moved over to my trued up Remington 700.

So now my set up is as follows:
Trued Remington 700, Shilen stainless barrel in light varmint contour. 6,5x47 Lapua chamber.
McMillan A3-5 stock with Badger bottom metal.
Vortex Razor Gen 2 4,5-26x56 in Vortex matched rings.
ATLAS PSR bipod and either my Ase Utra SL7i or Stalon Whisper suppressor as soon as I get the barrel threaded.
I estimate the weight to be close to 12 pounds, which makes a huge difference.

In the future im looking at a 3-20x50 S&B and maybe a KRG W3 Gen 5. Not sure yet...
Lookin forward to the 2017 season

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spife7980

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016 Last edited 12/20/2016 by spife7980

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I dont do too much PRS stuff but I have been waking around night hunting recently, using the mounted thermal as my only guidance. Well thats a 11.5lbs rifle plus the thermal plus bullets plus the mdvr, plus the can. All together I estimate it at ~16 lbs. Thats was entirely too much even just pulling it up every 40 yards scanning during an hour, Ive since bought a cheap american predator for the night stalks. 5 lbs right off the top is a world of difference in my weariness after a walk.

Im not sure how much the weight would matter for positional prs work where you only have to get it in and out of little holes etc for a limited period of time but if youre going to be huffing it around the weight gets exponentially heavier with time.



I imagine a light palma and a not ridiculously heavy chassis would balance just fine. I dont see the benefit of an m24 and massive boat anchor stock unless its prone all day all summer. A brake and recoil pad make it much better than 5 lbs of steel.

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BallisticPrimate

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016

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Unless you're going with a short barrel I think 12 pounds will be hard to get to with those components but I'm interested in what it finally weighs in at so please keep us in the loop.

Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/20/2016

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If I'm just sitting at a bench or in the woods off a bi pod or tripod weight is of little consideration. If I'm gonna have to carry it a while, strip it down.

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SheldonN

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/21/2016 Last edited 12/21/2016 by SheldonN

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I had the privilege of squadding with some of the top shooters in the nation at our regional finale last month, and I got to witness first hand some incredible shooting. The big eye opener for me was how important spotting your impacts was. We had some really tough conditions to shoot in, 20-30mph winds. I could see how the experienced shooters would not just see that they missed a target and make a correction to get back on the target, but they would also watch where on the target their impact was and make subtle corrections to keep their impacts in the center of the plate.

One stage was a KYL rack with the final target being sub MOA, and the wind holds were enough to have you aiming at the next plate over. They were able to run the rack hitting the smallest target each time, because they would be getting feedback by seeing impacts on the larger plates.

It's not heat management and the barrel warping, it's not the weight you have to carry from stage to stage, it's not the speed you can move from shooting position to shooting position. It's not even the offhand stages (though that's what drove me to order a Rem Varmint for my latest rifle). Spotting impacts is the number one way to get more points in a PRS comp.

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Meplat

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/21/2016 Last edited 12/21/2016 by Meplat

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I don't like ultra-light weight; less than 9lb for precision or LR shooting, but anywhere from 10 to 13lb is solid.

14+ and it gets to be a bit much for offhand shots. While they're a minority, I still like to be able to practice them without shaking or fatiguing too quickly.

I only have one modern LR rig, so it doubles as an antelope rifle. I've had it weigh 16lb before and carried it slung 10 miles across the grasslands, half of that with a pack full of meat. Never again. I cut a little over 3lb out of it recently and got a Eberlestock rifle scabbard pack.

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BallisticPrimate

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/21/2016

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SheldonN wrote:
I had the privilege of squadding with some of the top shooters in the nation at our regional finale last month, and I got to witness first hand some incredible shooting. The big eye opener for me was how important spotting your impacts was. We had some really tough conditions to shoot in, 20-30mph winds. I could see how the experienced shooters would not just see that they missed a target and make a correction to get back on the target, but they would also watch where on the target their impact was and make subtle corrections to keep their impacts in the center of the plate.

One stage was a KYL rack with the final target being sub MOA, and the wind holds were enough to have you aiming at the next plate over. They were able to run the rack hitting the smallest target each time, because they would be getting feedback by seeing impacts on the larger plates.

It's not heat management and the barrel warping, it's not the weight you have to carry from stage to stage, it's not the speed you can move from shooting position to shooting position. It's not even the offhand stages (though that's what drove me to order a Rem Varmint for my latest rifle). Spotting impacts is the number one way to get more points in a PRS comp.​

The question then is how light can one go (using popular match calibres) without compromising the ability to spot impacts

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SheldonN

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/21/2016 Last edited 12/21/2016 by SheldonN
(1 vote)

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Yes, that's the question indeed. My next build is a bit more weight conscious than my current rifle... Manners elite CF stock, Rem Varmint Profile barrel, Kahles rather than Vortex Gen II because of the weight. However, it's also 6 Dasher so it's not like I'll have much recoil to contend with in the first place.



I shot the entire last match season with a 308, made it very tough to see impacts when the conditions got windy.

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/21/2016 Last edited 12/21/2016 by GregLangelius
(1 vote)

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Being able to spot impacts it going to relate directly to muzzle flip, IMHO; and with a well designed (straight-line recoil ala AR) stock, weight is going to be less and less of a factor. Getting that shoulder contact directly behind the bore axis it going to have more consequence regarding muzzle flip than weight, and assuming this is actually so, there's a hell of a lot less need to lug around a heavy gun.

When I hunt, I shoot offhand, my stock is very well configured vis-a-vis a bore line that recoils straight back through the shoulder, and not over top of it, and I see the impacts muss up the deer's pelt, even on shots that are relatively close. The rifle is a Win 70 .30-'06 Featherlight, so very obviously, the recoil and muzzle flip are very much under control.

I would pay for that in recoil when shooting sustained fire in the prone, but I can control that by shooting lighter bullets flatter, and with the help of a good brake. There's a reason why the Palma folks shoot 155's.



Greg

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ColdTriggerFinger

XCorporal
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/28/2016

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So, I'm thinking about getting a Ruger M77 Mk ll V/T in 6.5 Creedmoor and putting dbm bottom metal on it. With a canted rail , rings , scope and bipod the rifle will weigh somewhere around 14 lbs . . What are the chances I'll be able to spot my misses without a muzzle brake ?
Glen.

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NYShotXSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/28/2016

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SheldonN wrote:
I had the privilege of squadding with some of the top shooters in the nation at our regional finale last month, and I got to witness first hand some incredible shooting. The big eye opener for me was how important spotting your impacts was. We had some really tough conditions to shoot in, 20-30mph winds. I could see how the experienced shooters would not just see that they missed a target and make a correction to get back on the target, but they would also watch where on the target their impact was and make subtle corrections to keep their impacts in the center of the plate.

One stage was a KYL rack with the final target being sub MOA, and the wind holds were enough to have you aiming at the next plate over. They were able to run the rack hitting the smallest target each time, because they would be getting feedback by seeing impacts on the larger plates.

It's not heat management and the barrel warping, it's not the weight you have to carry from stage to stage, it's not the speed you can move from shooting position to shooting position. It's not even the offhand stages (though that's what drove me to order a Rem Varmint for my latest rifle). Spotting impacts is the number one way to get more points in a PRS comp.​

Not trying to get off topic of the OP but... This insight is lining up with my thoughts about transitioning to a horus-style reticle. Accurately spotting misses and making adjustments seems to fit Horus reticles nicely.

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doctnjXSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/28/2016

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My wife and I both have heavy rigs. Hers is noticeably heavier than mine. If she wasnt a gym rat she would probably demand a lighter rifle. We both just plan on shooting any portion of an off hand stage from the hip and getting on with it. lol. We could shoot them off hand but very low percentage so why use the time. I agree with Sheldon, that the most important aspect for me this past year has been the ability to see most of the misses. We had one match with 20 mile hour over the right shoulder then same left to right half way, then right to left again at around the target and they switched up. So aiming up wind quickly became down wind and half your time was just correcting. If you couldnt see your own shot that would be a fat zero.

My question is this however. Most stocks these days have multi directional recoil pad adjustment. Putting it in the right place helps mitigate muzzle flip. I have yet to read anywhere as to putting it here helps this, there helps that. Its mostly like "look we have this cool pad that moves all over". Wow I need that!!!! We kind of set ours for comfort but Im sure there is some science behind it and set one way for one position is not good for all. Not meaning to hijack here but spotting misses has a lot to do with muzzle flip mitigation. If other parts of the rifle help with that also, maybe I dont need my 500 lb rifle.lol

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corey4NFA

XFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/31/2016 Last edited 12/31/2016 by corey4NFA

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Sorry it’s been awhile. Busy with work and the holiday crap…just 2 more days and back to normal!

I spent some time weighing all of my components so I can have a “bill of materials”, if you will, so I can mix and match.

All components were weighed with a kitchen scale. Unfortunately, the capacity was only 11lbs, so I won’t be able to weigh each finished rifle combination, oh well. The scale was actually pretty damn accurate and consistent I must say. My bathroom scale will vary +/- .4lbs when I try to weight complete rifles which doesn’t get me anywhere.



CHASSIS:

5.07 McRee R7ST-G5, non-folder

3.19 Manners T4 with mini chassis

5.00 Manners T4A with mini chassis

4.40 KRG W3, non-folder, with spigot and barricade stop (just received it on 12-27-16 and haven’t had the chance to mount it up yet)



BARRELED ACTIONS (SA 308):

For reference:

Thru a quick research, I found the actions to be approx 2.25ish

From Bartlein; a 20” remmy varmint will be about 3.75, and a 20” M40 will be about 5.00 (these are barrel only weights)



5.00 Remmy SPS 16” varmint

5.53 Remmy 5R 20” varmint

7.10 GAP Templar V2 (Defiance Deviant) M40 24” 6 deep heavy flutes



SCOPES (Nightforce ultra-lite rings and sunshade):

3.50 Razor Gen2 3.50

2.19 AMG 2.19 (got busted by the warden and she made me sell it; blah blah blah…priorities…blah blah blah; so I can’t comment on the scope too much, but I was able to mount it up to my GAP to get a feel for it. That’s actually how I got busted, I was supposed to be at work and she came home early lol)



MISC:

.28 Magpul AI 10 rounder

.43 Triad large modular stock pack

.83 Atlas BT46-LW17 PSR

1.28 TBAC 30P-1 with Armageddon cover



With the weather getting shitty in PA, it might be awhile before I can actually get out to put some rounds down range. With the holidays finally winding down and my house slowly returning to normal, I will be able in a week or 2 to at least put some combinations together and dedicate some quality time in the house to at least get a feel and do some dry fire. I am going to build a shooting barricade so I can shoot from various positions and get a feel for rifle balance and weight. I want to do some COFs with my shot timer with a heavy rifle and a lighter rifle. And see what I come up with.

From the few combinations I have been able to setup, the razor gen2 balanced the rifle better with more weight over the action. I noticed with the AMG on top, the rifle dipped towards the muzzle (on my 24” GAP with can). As noted, I no longer have the AMG, so I won’t be able to test balance combinations with that setup. I’m thinking I will like a 16lb-ish and a 20” barrel if that’s possible with what I have. I did also notice with the T4A being more ass heavy, it balanced better than the T4. I haven’t tried the KRG or McRee.

That’s all I have for now, please ad more to what y’all have found and thank you to those that have given the hide some insight. I never really thought about balance until you guys mentioned it and that’s when I noticed the difference with the razor Gen2 and AMG; and T4 vs T4A.

Disclaimer:

I am not an experienced PRS competitor. I can’t call my shots, I can’t see my hits on steel, I can’t read the wind, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Most shooting has been from a bench and prone.



EDIT TO AD:

my range is only 300, so i am not sure if i should be able to see hits as they happen on steel with a 308. i am also going to do a 6.5CM as soon as i figure out what setup (varmint/M40; T4/T4A/KRG) to go with.

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morganlamprechtXFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
12/31/2016

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Should be able to see hits/misses @ 300 fairly easily when it's all done right

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corey4NFA

XFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/13/2017 Last edited 01/13/2017 by corey4NFA

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morganlamprecht wrote:
Should be able to see hits/misses @ 300 fairly easily when it's all done right​

as far as the rifle moving under recoil, what is an acceptable sight picture after the recoil impulse? sometimes the cross hairs are off by 1 mil high and 2 mils right, sometimes they are 2 mils high and 6 mils right. obviously, the closer to POA the better, what is the norm? i use 300 yards as my reference only because that is the farthest i can shoot. this was a week or so ago shot from a bench.

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Kadams1563XSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/13/2017

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Anyone have this set up and have a weight?

Defiance Deviant
26" med Palma barrel / 6.5 creedmoor
Manners T6A elite carbon
Vortex 4.5x27 gen II
Seekins rings
Harris bipod
SilencerCO ASR brake
M5 bottom metal



Have a build getting completed and would like to know about what it's gonna weigh. I hope I can spot my hits fairly easily.

Last rifle was a Savage action with a 26" heavy Varmint barrel with a brake. It was an XLR element chassis and it was possible but it recoiled more then I thought it should have. It was also a 6.5 creedmoor.
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mpk1996XGunny Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/13/2017

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as others have said, I think balance, and balance on barricades is key. recoil management in prone or when using a bipod isnt' too hard, but when shooting off a barricade having a heavier, well balanced rifle will steady the movement and also your ability to spot the shot.

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/14/2017

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Kadams1563 wrote: Anyone have this set up and have a weight?

Defiance Deviant
26" med Palma barrel / 6.5 creedmoor
Manners T6A elite carbon
Vortex 4.5x27 gen II
Seekins rings
Harris bipod
SilencerCO ASR brake
M5 bottom metal



Have a build getting completed and would like to know about what it's gonna weigh. I hope I can spot my hits fairly easily.

Last rifle was a Savage action with a 26" heavy Varmint barrel with a brake. It was an XLR element chassis and it was possible but it recoiled more then I thought it should have. It was also a 6.5 creedmoor.​

Have you considered spending half an hour searching for weights on these parts instead of hoping for the 1 in a million chance someone has the exact setup? Not trying to be a jerk, but your expectations seem wildly unrealistic mate. You didn't even list exact parts on some of this stuff...what bipod, what rings, what bottom metal...etc.

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Kadams1563XSergeant
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rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/14/2017

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davisj3537 wrote:

Kadams1563 wrote: Anyone have this set up and have a weight?

Defiance Deviant
26" med Palma barrel / 6.5 creedmoor
Manners T6A elite carbon
Vortex 4.5x27 gen II
Seekins rings
Harris bipod
SilencerCO ASR brake
M5 bottom metal



Have a build getting completed and would like to know about what it's gonna weigh. I hope I can spot my hits fairly easily.

Last rifle was a Savage action with a 26" heavy Varmint barrel with a brake. It was an XLR element chassis and it was possible but it recoiled more then I thought it should have. It was also a 6.5 creedmoor.​

Have you considered spending half an hour searching for weights on these parts instead of hoping for the 1 in a million chance someone has the exact setup? Not trying to be a jerk, but your expectations seem wildly unrealistic mate. You didn't even list exact parts on some of this stuff...what bipod, what rings, what bottom metal...etc.

​

One in a million chance that someone will have the same set up?

Let's see here.

The most popular action of PRS shooters.
The most popular scope of PRS Shooters.
The most popular stock of PRS shooters.

I thought people would understand that they rings are 34mm rings since the scope requires those rings.

I believe there are a ton of people here with this exact same set up.

I was asking for a guesstimate not like I needed an exact weight but thanks for your help in this matter.

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BallisticPrimate

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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/14/2017 Last edited 01/14/2017 by BallisticPrimate

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I've been thinking about this topic as I'm looking to reduce the weight of one of my rifles. It's already very manageable but given I'm going to be using a different comp stick this year I've decided to shave some weight off last years piece.

Current specs and weight.
Surgeon 591 in 6.5x47
Manners T5 + mini chassis (I went with the XLR Cheek piece which only weighs 3.2 ounces)
27' Shilen remington varmint contour + Rad brake
Nightforce 4-16x42 + SPUHR
Huber Concepts trigger

With a 10 round AI mag and Atlas Bipod it's right at 14.5lbs. Simply by removing the bipod and swapping the AI mag for a 5rd Magpul P-Mag I can take the weight to 13lbs flat. I'd like to hunt with this stick so I'm going to chop the barrel to 22 or 23 inches and shoot it from a pack (negating the need for a bipod). This should put me at approximately 12.4lbs, hardly lightweight but a sold 2lbs weight reduction from its current configuration.

I'll also run this set up in the "close" range matches during the season. These typically don't exceed 500m. Currently I'm slinging 142smk's at 2825fps, I assume 130's may be better matched to the shorter tube

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/14/2017 Last edited 01/14/2017 by GregLangelius

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Getting back to the lighter weight rifle; there's something I do that may not be common or popular, but I've been told it has been adopted by the AMTU.

I run a parade style sling along with a Harris pattern bipod. The sling is used to weight down the rifle against the bipod. One passes the non-trigger arm over the sling, and reaches back to guide the rifle butt. Leaning down onto the elbow above the sling anchors the rifle against muzzle jump/flip. This method can be used either prone or from a bench. Muzzle jump/flip is essentially eliminated, and I have been able to watch trace all the way into the target.

We could talk about it more here, but really, just give it a try. Make up you own minds.



Greg

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Dalko43XSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/14/2017 Last edited 01/14/2017 by Dalko43

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OP, the weight vs mobility discussion is something I brainstorm about quite often. My experiences having included a little bit of everything with my rifle (benchrest shooting, tactical-style shooting, hunting); there are some areas where the weight can be minimized but there are other areas where you need it (at least for PRS-style of shooting).



Areas where you need it:

Barrel - for .308, a 20" barrel is the minimum I'd go with (even with a 1:10 twist rate). IMHO, you need at least that amount of barrel in order to have the velocity to send out good long range ammo (175gr and up) out to long distances. Some argue that you can go shorter than that, and maybe for 700 yards and in that approach will work. For longer distances, I think a 20" is required and a 22" or 24" is preferred (again that is for .308 rifles). Also, I think a heavy, bull barrel profile is absolutely required: 1) to mitigate barrel heat and 2) to maintain good barrel harmonics. Fluting a heavy barrel can give you a compromise of sorts (slightly reduced weight but still enough barrel material for good consistent shots), but as I've heard it explained, a fluted barrel will never have the same level of consistency as a unfluted barrel of the same diameter and length, so it is a compromise that you have to weigh.

Stock: The stock needs to be strong enough to take abuse (lots of repeated shots, rough handing, bad weather ect.) as well it needs to be stiff enough that it maintains a truly free-floated barrel. That said, a lot of the newer stocks being marketed seem to be, on average, a bit lighter than the older stocks traditionally used for precision shooting.

Bipods: they need to be good quality and durable. You can find cheap, lightweight ones, but the decent models will add some amount of heft to the front end.



Areas where weight can be trimmed:

Scope: You obviously need a decent scope (FFP, good tracking, good reticle that matches turrets, decent glass quality), but I do think there is a tendency by some to put too much scope on their rifles (both in terms of capability and weight). Depending on the ranges you're shooting out to, the often used 5-25 magnification scopes might be more than what you need; as well, a lot of those scopes add at least 30 oz to your rifle weight. My 4-16 Vortex Viper PST adds ~22 oz, and even that feels like a lot. Unless you're bench rest shooting, you should look for a scope that offers a nice balance between meeting your optical requirements and minimizing the weight you have up top.

Attachments: Anything else added or attached to the rifle (cheek rests, butt stock ammo carrier, sling) should be analyzed for weight.

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/14/2017

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Kadams1563 wrote:
I was asking for a guesstimate not like I needed an exact weight but thanks for your help in this matter.​

Sorry if I peed in your cheerios man. Good luck.

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morganlamprechtXFirst Sergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/17/2017

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corey4NFA wrote:

morganlamprecht wrote:
Should be able to see hits/misses @ 300 fairly easily when it's all done right​

as far as the rifle moving under recoil, what is an acceptable sight picture after the recoil impulse? sometimes the cross hairs are off by 1 mil high and 2 mils right, sometimes they are 2 mils high and 6 mils right. obviously, the closer to POA the better, what is the norm? i use 300 yards as my reference only because that is the farthest i can shoot. this was a week or so ago shot from a bench.​

when you do it all right? just shooting prone or from a bench? almost perfectly back on target...the majority of the time im within 0.5mil in any direction from positions that have front and rear support, lots of times shooting at a 10" plate @ 1k my reticle comes right back into the plate, youll see the difference when you start speeding shots up like 5 rnds in 20-25 seconds, done right the shooter barely moves anything but his arm...other guys look like theyre riding a bull...start getting into weird stuff and that will obviously change...

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HairyBikerXSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/17/2017
(1 vote)

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I think it is time to look to the past to imagine the future. For far too long we have been shooting belly benchrest rigs that tack hole off the bipod but are beasts in Standing and other positions. I think the answer lies back in the late 1960s when Steyr first build the SSG. Check the weight and length of that rifle and then replicate those characteristics with a 6BR or a 6.5 x 47. I have a feeling we would not be disappointed.

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BallisticPrimate

XSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/17/2017 Last edited 01/17/2017 by BallisticPrimate

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HairyBiker wrote:
I think it is time to look to the past to imagine the future. For far too long we have been shooting belly benchrest rigs that tack hole off the bipod but are beasts in Standing and other positions. I think the answer lies back in the late 1960s when Steyr first build the SSG. Check the weight and length of that rifle and then replicate those characteristics with a 6BR or a 6.5 x 47. I have a feeling we would not be disappointed.​

That's a good thought which breaks down as follows.



SSG: 4.2KG, Scope + Rings/Mount: 1kg (could save weight with something like a March 3-24), Bipod: 0.4kg

Total: 5.6kg/12.3lbs (perhaps 5.2kg/11.5lbs is a fairer measure given the bipod is likely to be absent for any positional work).



A budget friendly way to go would be to drop something like a Tikka CTR into one of the lighter stocks about. As pictured this is 4.8kg/10.6lbs:







Unfortunately it's in one of those pesky 30cals. I ran it in a match last year (lobbing 155smk's @ 2550fps) that topped out at 400m. Unfortunately some smug British bastard won the day

Then there are the carbon options re stocks and barrels. On the Tikka page there's a piece that rocks in at 12.5lbs with a Manners/Tikka/Hardy combo...



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HairyBikerXSergeant
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
01/17/2017
(1 vote)

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You have to show the Colonials why they are Colonies occasionally.

I am interested in real world experience with the 6BR in a carbon fibre barrel. Early reports suggest they start stringing when the steel heats up but I have only had that from one source.

The Accuracy International stock remains a good all rounder but is too heavy. If there was a way to reduced the weight of the chassis while keeping the strength too...

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MCPO228XCorporal
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Re: rifle weight; heavier vs lighter
02/01/2017

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Heavier vs lighter. I have never competed in any shooting event. But I do enjoy pushing my own limits to see what I'm actually capable of. I have screwed up more shots at various distances than I care to admit. Why, because the rifle gets heavy, especially if your shooting off hand and the hogs are 200 yards away. Best way I have overcome this challenge is I invested a small fortune into another heavy piece of gear to haul around with me in the swamp. And what is it... A Really Right Stuff tripod, ball head and the vice. Hogs now know the tide has turned. Steady her up, lock her in and bingo no more fatigue. I will tote a heavier rifle any day as long as I have my gear to support it. Gets even more challenging after S/S.

 

[Bourney]

Nothing wrong with a well built lightweight system and I second the mention of the Tikka being dropped into a light stock, works well... but it depends on what the purpose of the build is, if its a ute/truck gun or a medium range predator smasher, sometimes a lightweight rig can be really handy... also really punishes mistakes when out smashing steel so can be a great way to train, here's an old video of a sub 8lb rifle smashing 1moa steel at 400m/440yards that used to be on the forum but who knows where its ended up... seems my account didn't survive.

I've always preferred them as light as possible, but I'm coming to a stage where I'm believing in the 'within reason' as I like to add weight in specific areas, scope e.g. a massive IOR and a medium/heavier than say a #4... this distributes the weight nicely, I like the stock to weigh as much as my scope with pad, dbm and Mag.. doing it this way makes it possible to build a 10-12lb gun that is super comfortable and straight tracking under recoil off a bipod and much nicer to carry than a 14lb+ gun... but depends on what you want it for. If you drive to a range or the like, set up shop and hardly move... more weight the merrier.

 

[acudaowner]

If I have to carry it as light as humanly possible , if it's on a bench or the ground heavy as hell .. if your carrying it or humping it up hill through the woods or a swamp 3x's as heavy of my bench gun so for you 60 lbs lol .