Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

[TOP PREDATOR]

IMHO, it is not only is more affordable, but shows up any shooting flaws with more visibility, especially shooting . so since i've been tinkering with the .22 heavily over the last 2 years, i thought i'd send some .308 down range to see if there was improvement.

beginning of last year, was averaging 5shot groups with the .308 at 100 = -1". this year .6"

beginning of last year, was averaging 5shot groups with the .308 at 200 = -2". this year 1.5"

the same goes for all distances up to 550 yards where i start going above MOA. improving my 5shot centerfire groups by .25 to .75 inch or more.

seems all that affordable shooting with the .22lr paid off better than i thought, and by approaching the .22lr in a serious manner (rifle, ammo, and technique) has paid off in the centerfire arena.

i know it's been talked about before, just wanted to throw in 2 more cents, and will probably be doing more rimfire stuff in 2010 than ever before.

alot of folks ask me why i'm "playing" with the .22, that i should stop playing with "toys" and go back to the "real thing".

looks like playtime paid off!

as this is posted on the 24th of december, i'd like to wish everyone a merry christmas, and hope your holiday is great. can't wait to hear what "toys" santa left you.

 

[exhogflyer]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

I concur about the whole .22 thing.It's an excellent and affordable way to improve shooting skills, also doesn't disturb the neighbors.Yes, it is a REAL gun....

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL!

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

I agree. The .22 is a great shooting platform for all around development and honing of one's shooting mechanics, as well as being able to hold its own in the small game field and on the target range.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

I enjoy the increased requirement to <span style="text-decoration: underline">accurately</span> read the wind when shooting longer ranges (over 100y) to get good groups, and hit the smaller targets. I can't afford to put 5K rounds through the .308, but I can afford that with the .22. It's nice to be able to shoot without plugs too, makes the sound of the ding on the steel much more satisfying.

Branden

 

[AtomicLabRat]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

I am starting to get intrigued by this concept.


Is the .22 at 100 and 200 yards a valid simlulation of shooting at longer distances with the centerfire rounds?

I shot my 10.5" SBR upper on one of my AR15s at 100 yards and while the group was disappointing, I was amazed that with 25MOA added to the setting all were on paper . . . even the occcasional subsonic rounds.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

Here is a link that is interesting and if you scroll down through it you will come to a .22LR -vs- .308 ballistic table that I think you'll find interesting. However, reading your way down to the .22LR - .308 comparisons is good reading.

http://www.6mmbr.com/rimfiretactical.html

 

[vikz]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

Interesting read..<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a link that is interesting and if you scroll down through it you will come to a .22LR -vs- .308 ballistic table that I think you'll find interesting. However, reading your way down to the .22LR - .308 comparisons is good reading.

http://www.6mmbr.com/rimfiretactical.html </div></div>

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

The .22LR's basic inherent accuracy makes the training process a fair bit simpler. Essentially, it almost requires deliberate effort to make it shoot badly. I think the same can be said for the centerfires, but I also expect it's not the same degree of truism as it is with the rimfire.

I think it's very simple to fall into the trap of assuming it takes a highly refined .22LR to serve the training purpose.

My thinking is completely opposite. We are looking for a baseline consistency, not a rigorously difficult to maintian ultimate precision. That baseline, whatever it is, serves as the standard that can be referenced to demonstrate progress and consistency.

I find, that unless there is a basic underlying mechanical problem, a straightforward basic .22LR bolt repeater, like the very simply configured Savage MKII F, serves my own purposes admirably, and mine has been used as a staple class/range gun for our club's youth marksmanship program.

It's probably had entire cases of ammo fired through it over the past decade, and it just keeps on keepin' on. The kids call it 'Black Beauty' and seek it out.

We use more precise firearms when transitioning shooters from Expert to Distinguished Expert, but it's rifles a lot like the MKII F which are used to help build their skills to that point.

Spend more if it suits your thinking, but the basic stuff has advantages too.

Greg

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

Very well put Greg.

Yes, I have more expensive .22's such as the MK II-FVT, (and my son has the MK II-BTV),,, yet I find that my old single shot Lakefield is just as accurate within a given range (50 yards) as both MK II's. The only difference here is that the more expensive MK II's are setup for long range 200+ yards.

This is far and away not to say that the MK IG or MK IIG, or the MK IIF you mention, can't serve the same purpose as the more expensive MK I & II's out there as they can, and I'm sure they do fill that job very well.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vikz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting read..<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a link that is interesting and if you scroll down through it you will come to a .22LR -vs- .308 ballistic table that I think you'll find interesting. However, reading your way down to the .22LR - .308 comparisons is good reading.

http://www.6mmbr.com/rimfiretactical.html </div></div></div></div>


made up my own based on my .22 and .308, (this is copied from an old post)
based on my experience and #'s through my set ups both 22 and 308 and running through a ballistics calculator that matches my range results, i came up with a drop comparison(22lr zeroed at 50 yards, .308 at 100yards,drop in inches). once again, this best matches my data, your numbers will probably differ:

22lr 40gr. .075bc 1040fps / .308win 165grSST .447bc 2593fps

22lr drop .308
50yds 0 = 100yds
75yds 2.8 = 175yds
100yds 8.3 = 240yds
125yds 17.6 = 315yds
150yds 30.8 = 380yds
175yds 47.3 = 450yds
200yds 68.7 = 510yds
225yds 92.5 = 560yds
250yds 123.9 = 630yds
275yds 158.2 = 690yds
300yds 199.9 = 770yds
325yds 248.8 = 820yds
350yds 304.8 = 880yds
375yds 367.9 = 940yds
400yds 437.6 = 987yds

i'm working on the wind drift one, i have 1 for each, just got to match the numbers up.

my thoughts on the drop chart was that if i'm shooting at 100 with a 22 and it drops 8.3", at what yardarge would my 308 drop 8.3" ? ....answered at 240 yards (at least with my set up).

so the next question would be....

if my 22lr, at 100 yds, drifts 5" with a 7mph 3:00 wind, my .308 drifts 5" at what distance with the same wind? answer is 300yards (at least with my set up), and is pretty darn close to what i get on paper.

i know that windage is super important, however to me, right now drop takes precedence over windage, so when i'm shooting at my 200 yard range and i have a guy next to me bustin my stones cause i'm using a 22, i'll have some data to say i'm simulating shooting a .308 at 510 yards.

then if the shooting gods are on my side and i pull off a 5" group, i can say i'm simulating a sub moa .308 at 510 yards. because i'm a natural loud mouthed cocky ahole, if the guy next to me shoots a +2" group, i can point out that on scale my "puny" 22 just outshot his .308

the tough thing is to find a "TRUE simulation / trainer" for the .308, perhaps by a change of 22lr ammo to equal both drop and windage characteristics of the .308

as shown above at 100 yards the drop equals 240, but the windage is 300. perhaps by finding a 22 ammo (maybe high velocity)that comes closest to mimicing both drop and windage at several distances (if possible) would be the key to finding that TRUE simulation.

if not possible, one would have to settle for a 22 ammo that would be based on either the drop or windage of .308, (that would be of a personal preference i guess). mine would be drop, as i think it would be better in my case to go with elevation. it's usually easier and more consistantly predict bullet drop with the constants of gravity, temp., alt., and humidity, as compared to the wind which can make so many drastic changes in speed and direction at 100 and 200+ and how much it affects the 22 at those ranges, and you can only get a truly accurate wind reading at your shooting station.

however my 22 shoots well enough as it's own entity, and i spent too much time getting there that i don't care if it mimics my .308 or not, just shooting it for what it is.

but will be working on a .22 to .308 wind chart, none the less

 

[ms6852]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

I own a 513T which I use to practice off hand shooting for hunting. I owe my deadly skills to the 22lr. Allows me to practice for pennies a day all year long.

 

[Basher]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a link that is interesting and if you scroll down through it you will come to a .22LR -vs- .308 ballistic table that I think you'll find interesting. However, reading your way down to the .22LR - .308 comparisons is good reading.

http://www.6mmbr.com/rimfiretactical.html </div></div>

You, sir, are the man! I use Wolf MT, and haven't been able to get good ballistic data for it until I read that article! Thanks a million!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

My comparison yardstick between R/F and C/F distances is based on TOF (Time Of Flight). Most of my C/F shooting is now done at 200yd, and for comparison purposes, I use a 1/2 size target at about 75-80yd. The TOF and Drop are roughly similar, and Drift is reasonable.

I'm currently using my Winter layover kicking around an idea about formulating R/F practice/training/comp(?) targets and COFs that simulate/complement the FV200 program that STP is currently running at our club. It's proven popular and challenging, and we have a regular crew who come out and take adavantage of his twice-monthly club match program. I'd like to see if a R/F rendition could be helpful to the shooters and the program, not as an alternative, but as a supplement.

Greg

 

[richardj]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"


.22LR Ballistics ....

JBM now has the BC data for various .22LR bullet types... knock yourselves out!.. and thank JBM..

RJ

 

[hrt4me]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

Good info, thanks for posting!

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My comparison yardstick between R/F and C/F distances is based on TOF (Time Of Flight). Most of my C/F shooting is now done at 200yd, and for comparison purposes, I use a 1/2 size target at about 75-80yd. The TOF and Drop are roughly similar, and Drift is reasonable.

I'm currently using my Winter layover kicking around an idea about formulating R/F practice/training/comp(?) targets and COFs that simulate/complement the FV200 program that STP is currently running at our club. It's proven popular and challenging, and we have a regular crew who come out and take adavantage of his twice-monthly club match program. I'd like to see if a R/F rendition could be helpful to the shooters and the program, not as an alternative, but as a supplement.

Greg </div></div>

Greg,

Keep us posted on this if you would please. I'd certainly be interested in what you come up with. Thanks!

 

[Arch]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

Me too. As sniper trainers go - keep it real! Everyone needs a sniper trainer.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

I think the greatest asset of the 22LR is its greatest deficiency: it is completely unforgiving of wind conditions. I had a great time at the range the other day shooting at 100 yards with wind that was varying from 5 - 15 mph. These were some of the biggest groups I have shot, but I was proud of the fact that I kept them within 50% of my usual group size while holding over anywhere from .1 to .7 mils.

Even at 50 yards, you have to know the wind very well. I was shooting my Smack the Smiley targets at 50 yards the other day into a strong head wind (about 15 mph). Even though this should be zero value wind, the end result was that I could not shoot with my typical precision. It was a good lesson that confirmed something that I already intuitively knew... it is a lot easier to accurately shoot full value wind than zero value wind... it is just much easier (for me) to judge.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

Joe;

One of the key imperative affecting my experiments is that whatever I do may not, must not, negatively impact the existing FV200 program STP is running. There are a lot of factors depending upon its success.

Whatever I do must not only pass muster as a viable concept, it must also serve only to augment, rather than detract from, that program's success.

Consequently, any progress will be cautious.

Greg

 

[EscapeVelocity]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

What I have read is all the reason I needed to go out and buy a 22LR! I am really excited to start practicing on this scale, just for the fact that we own property with max shooting distance of 200 yards. While still could, its not pushing my 308 in terms of shooter skill at distances (still practice at that distance though when my neighbor's much longer field is available). Plus I will at least get more shooting time with the very cost efficient ammo, and squirrels.....

 

[Arch]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

Everyone should own at least one good .22lr

Does your mall allow you to carry?

 

[EscapeVelocity]

Re: Rimfires used for trainers "keeping it real"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty-One</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone should own at least one good .22lr

Yes I agree, just have never really considered spending a little more cash on one until now.

Does your mall allow you to carry?

LOL. Thoughtful. You ask this question as if it were beneath you...??</div></div>