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Gunsmithing Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

Lowlight

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Minuteman
  • Apr 12, 2001
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    <span style="font-weight: bold">Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class </span>

    Complete Review Here …

    <iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-xLtkJCsAm8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <span style="font-style: italic">Excerpts</span>

    The first time I heard of Robert Gradous was through well-known writer Jacob Gottfredson, the next time it would be through Jim from Nightforce. Both suggested I explore his Gunsmithing Class where you actually build your own precision rifle inside of a week. You read that right, a custom rifle in less than a week, Sounds too good to be true, That’s what I thought so after finally getting a break in my schedule I called Robert and set a date.

    The initial consultation was simple, Robert’s attitude was, this was about having fun and there was no Voodoo or Root Oil involved, just simple methods put into practice. Come down, he has a cottage to stay in on site and that world famous Southern Hospitality would be the order of the week. Believe me there is no ego involved here.
    RGradousthreads-588x390.jpg


    We easily spent the first hour lining the barrel up in the lathe. Making sure we were not stressing it in anyway, testing the run-out near and far. With each step Robert gave me the pros and cons of each action I took as well as the choices that were going to be needed. I really liked the fact that when it came time to thread the barrel Robert took the time to explain the threading process as well as the two different types available to me. At each point it was my job to set the tool, which he double checked my work and then, at the critical moment I practiced it dry off the barrel until I felt ready to roll. When it came to threading I choose the standard 60 degree threads. We talked about doing spiral lock threads, I had been practicing the threading process at least 20x before taking a cut, and I just thought the spiral lock was a little over my pay grade. I am sure I could have done it, especially with Robert over my shoulder, still I had to ask myself, did I need them? Not really, but knowing the choice was there was great.

    RGradouschamber1-588x390.jpg


    We spent the better part of the day working the barrel. I feel this is a critical component and seeing the attention to detail in Robert’s approach confirmed it for me. When it came time to chamber Robert had a custom tight chamber reamer there for a 6.5CM but I’m shooting a tactical rifle, tight chambers aren’t for me, and this was clear, as out came the standard SAAMI reamer. We started with the roughing reamer, and then moved to the finishing reamer. I would think it would be hard to explain a “feel” to a layman, but here I was reaming the chamber, working off the feel and the sound the tool made. We spent enough time working the lathe that I was beginning to pick up the small cues it gave me. That in it self was an awesome feeling, to question a feel and have Robert respond in the affirmative. So we squared, threaded, chambered and cut the barrel all that was left was to crown and thread it for my can. Money, each step it appeared that under Robert’s direction we were nailing it, as every time we checked the results of my work the numbers were giving us minimum spreads. Time to fit it to the action so we can Cerakote it before we had to bed it, and today we had to bed it.

    RGradousthreads2-588x390.jpg


    The Cerakote work was real straightforward. I chose coyote tan for the barreled action, and flat dark earth for the skins. It was 10PM when we finally bed the rifle. That was almost 15 hours of work on MY first barreled action build, all of that was barrel work. Tomorrow we get to see if it shoots.

    RGradouscerakote1-588x390.jpg


    RGradousNF-588x390.jpg


    RGradoussuppressor2-588x390.jpg


    In my opinion the Load Development we did was worth its weight in gold. Where else can you build in a rifle in 2 days, then go out and develop a baseline load using everything from 120gr ammo to 140gr ammo with a few inbetween. My favorite load and clearly the rifle’s too, was the 130gr VLD. This gave us great velocity, awesome groups in the .1s and really nice results at distance.

    RGradous-15.jpg

    .280 - .264 = .016"

    This was not the only group of this type from this rifle

    <span style="font-weight: bold">Conclusions</span>
    RGradousDevilDog-6-588x390.jpg

    What an awesome week, from bare components to a 1 hole tactical rifle. This is one of those experiences that you never forget and I highly recommend. Robert has an outstanding way of doing business, and if you anything like me, I recommend calling him and having your next precision rifle built by YOU. At Robert’s shop of course. Here you have all the say on how it gets down and how the finished products turns out. It’s a level of control unheard of. It should be in your Bucket List if nothing else.

    I want to thank Robert for an awesome week, Todd for seamlessly cleaning the shop and helping during load development, to Joe Collier for loaning me the 1.0 Skins while mine were drying and to Jacob G and Jim for recommending this to me. I can’t say enough good things about Robert and his operation.
    To find out more, head over to Robert’s website.
    http://www.gradousrifles.com/class.php

    You can read the complete article here:
    Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Article
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    It's 6.5CM and not a 308... and yes 24' is as long as I think I need, clearly the Muzzle Velocity show it... low end was 2824fps and high end was 3100fps... My best loads with the 130gr VLD which was the most accurate across the board was inside 2900fps... Mission Accomplished.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    Ive seen the gaps before. I saw a rifle that was shooting half inch at 100 with no lug contact at all. Doesn't mean it would have kept it up all day though.

    I totally agree with bedding the AICS. I bed the rear pad, front pad, and lug area. Front pad and Lug area join together.

    How much velocity do you think you'd lose with the creed if you went to a 21" barrel? 60fps?

    What made you pick 24"?

    It might be my next round.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    Frank,
    Awesome! Truly Awesome! I bet this puts a new light on exactly what full time gunsmiths do every day. The fact that he can take some one who is not a machinist and turn out a product like that is incredible.

    I've read other reviews from his students and they all remarked on how clean and organized his facility is. However I never saw shots from the Air conditioned shooting shed, that is bad ass. I bet my neighbors would not like load development days at my house.

    Good for you Frank! Thanks for sharing.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My favorite load and clearly the rifle’s too, was the 130gr VLD. This gave us great velocity, awesome groups in the .1s and really nice results at distance.
    </div></div>

    Are they enjoying a jump or are you snugging them up,a nd may I ask what powder you're running them with?


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    It should be in your Bucket List if nothing else.
    </div></div>

    Its definitely on there....

    Thanks for sharing another gem!
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    Are you gonna cut it down later?

    Sorry but you've been such a die hard short barrel guy and have influenced me greatly. Even talking about a short barreled 300wm which I'm curious about.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    Congrats, Frank; friendly envy is in order. It's always good to gain another insight/viewpoint where accuracy and shooting excellence are involved.

    Greg
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    Very nice work Frank.

    Interesting to note in the video that he has a Turn-Pro lathe. I know two very well respected shooters in the BR world that use Turn-Pro as well. Neither of them, ( AHEM, cough, cough ) keeps theirs as clean as Robert however!

    Also noted was that he uses a 4-jaw chuck rather than a spider to hold the breech end during chambering. Curious to hear his opinion on that, I think it is a lot more solid than the spider, and solid is your friend when trying to get chatter free cuts.

    Just goes to show that there are lots of ways to skin dat cat!
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    I visited Robert for the 1 week class in January of this year. It was a truly amazing experience. Robert spared no level of effort in providing step by step instruction with hands on oversight. He would routinely ask if I understood and if I was getting what I wanted out of the class. This level of interest in customer satisfaction is generally difficult to find anywhere today. For me I am not certain what was more fun, completing my first build or test firing and load development for the completed work. I must also add that the shop is a well oiled machine and I also enjoyed the interactions with Todd, Joe C., Jim M.

    I think that everyone who is serious about shooting should take the class even if they don't have aspirations of doing any further builds. It is hard to fully explain the amount of raw effort and attention to detail that is required to complete a quality rifle build. Simply taking the class would help a passionate shooter make better choices when putting together future build specifications for their gunsmith. The class opened my eyes pretty wide and I enjoyed every minute of it.

    At the end of the class Robert asked if there was anything he could have done better or differently... I thought about it for a moment and said yes, please work on an advanced topics class because I had just finished rifle building 101 and would be ready for a 200 level class in a year or so.

    Thanks again to Robert, Todd, Jim, Joe (and JC who I did not get to meet in person, perhaps next time).

    P.S. -Robert, the apple pie is waiting for your phone call.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice job! That turned out great. For sure the the list of things to do. Someday!

    Frank, So how did Robert like the Bighorn? I thought I read somewhere he is only a Surgeon man. I know your a big fan.</div></div>

    He really liked the Bighorn a lot, Robert worked for Surgeon, but he really thought the Bighorn had a lot going for it. I won't speak for him, but it was very positive.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    No, I think letting the barrel dictate what is required doesn't force me to make a blanket statement that all barrels need to be broken in. In fact it could simple be an issue of wanting better results sooner, rather than later. As I said, this barrel copper fouled to the point the patch looked like a swatch from some blue jeans. Not even my 260 has done that. <span style="font-style: italic">(different make)</span>

    If I shoot a 100 rounds without breaking it in, and then go home and do a chemical clean down to bare barrel, that is going to accomplish the same thing in my mind, especially if I am not looking to set the world on fire for the first 100 rounds. I could have easily managed respectable results even with the fliers. It was still Sub MOA, just not Sub 1/4 MOA.

    Here was my Clean Cold Bore with the factory 140gr AMAX, above it is an example of the 2 hole groups, -- fliers and spacing I was talking about. Not exactly awful for a "flier"
    RGradous-22.jpg


    The groups dictated the frequency and with other calibers / barrels / etc, this could easily change. 1 size does not fit all... neither does any single rule of thumb.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    Pretty awesome Frank, I can only imagine the satisfaction you felt in spending the time, learning, and completing the build. Then going out and seeing the results on target.

    Had to have been a pretty outrageous feeling. Great job, bet it was fun.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    And just an FYI, here is one of the load development targets from the first day of shooting. This shows that when I am talking about fliers and the like I am not doing so as if the shots were all over the place. The center group is a 10 shot group with five different loads, so this shows you the kind of consistent results we were getting despite the way I wrote it.

    FLG_3440.jpg
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mikee Booshay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also noted was that he uses a 4-jaw chuck rather than a spider to hold the breech end during chambering. Curious to hear his opinion on that, I think it is a lot more solid than the spider, and solid is your friend when trying to get chatter free cuts.</div></div>

    I think it is important to point out there are round brass inserts in the chuck jaws so it isn't acting like a typical chuck with several inches of contact area. In this thread, you can see he uses a typical spider on the back of the lathe. I don't know if there is anymore rigidity in using this setup versus others shown but it would save having to remove the chuck every time.

    Thanks for the writeup Lowlight.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    Congrats to you LL. Robert is first class. Bohem said it best...<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Robert is the best of the best.

    </div></div>
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    Man, that's the only vacation this guy wants. I'm so far from being that guy though, as I'd probably end up breaking something or burning down the cottage by accident. Zero metal working skills here.
     
    Re: Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class Review

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    How much velocity do you think you'd lose with the creed if you went to a 21" barrel? 60fps?</div></div>

    I can't speak for Lowlight, but in the full article, he says the rifle was shooting the Hornady factory loads about 80fps faster than what was listed on the box. I have a new 6.5 CM with a 20" Brux barrel and I was getting 20fps slower than what was listed on the box for the Hornady factory 120 AMAX and 140 AMAX loads (I was getting 2890 out of the 120s and 2690 out of the 140s). This was about a couple months ago on a hot day (95ish, I think) and all within the first 50 rounds through the barrel.