Rough Rust-like finish inside alpha brass necks

[JRBullock1987]

Does anyone get this rough, rust-like finish and color inside their brass neck after firing/cleaning/resizing? I loaded up some 6.5cm rounds after one firing. Dry media cleaned. Resized with sac die (.003" neck tension). and they were extremely heavy seating force and inconsistent seating depths with my l.e. wilson so i looked inside the necks and saw this. Any way to avoid this? I ended up having to use some dry neck lube (graphite) to help with lowering the seating force to feel normal and get my seating depth consistent. Didn't have any issues with the new brass (alpha munitions ocd LRP). This was after one firing. Any one deal with this or have a solution to prevent this?
Thanks,

 

[918v]

It’s probably galling. Use a bigger expander and graphite to lower the seating pressure, and/or tumble in corn con and nufinish.

 

[Dolomite]

It’s the opposite, you still had carbon inside the neck and the mandrel removed the carbon to expose the brass under it.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Use some neck lube.

 

[Edsel]

It’s the opposite, you still had carbon inside the neck and the mandrel removed the carbon to expose the brass under it.

This explains the appearance of the necks.

Very typical finding after neck dilation with a mandrel.

 

[OREGUN]

A bunch of questions: What do you mean by “dry media cleaned”? Is there any lube being applied to the inside of the neck or the “expanding” part of the sizing die (mandrel or expander ball, whatever)? And what is that exactly? You said sac die. Does that include the integral expander mandrel? Are you mandrelling in a separate step? I’m not sure what the sac options are I’ve only used their combined decapping expander mandrel.

Generally speaking, try spraying your sizing lube across the case mouths so that some gets into the case mouth. Apply some kind of lubrication to your sizing mandrel (imperial die wax). That usually does it for me (makes it such that I don’t lube my cases before seating). Regarding cleaning, think about how you are cleaning and what it means for carbon in the neck. I anneal and then tumble for 2 hours in Lyman’s media with no additives (the green one) and then size. I like a bit of carbon left in the necks. If you are aggressively cleaning, cleaning again after sizing, or annealing immediately before sizing, you are changing the condition in the neck and can get less lubricity than you want from the carbon that remains…thus requiring some kind of seating lube.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Also @JRBullock1987 are you lubing before you mandrel?

 

[JRBullock1987]

im using expander mandrel in the same step as sizing with the sac die. I use imperial sizing die wax inside the neck as well as outside of case. I use corn cob media for about an hour. Then after I resize i clean again for about 15 to 20 minutes

 

[Cascade Hemi]

NeoLube is the way.

 

[OREGUN]

im using expander mandrel in the same step as sizing with the sac die. I use imperial sizing die wax inside the neck as well as outside of case. I use corn cob media for about an hour. Then after I resize i clean again for about 15 to 20 minutes

Skip the after-sizing tumble. That’s the source of your trouble. Try a few that you just wipe the die wax off the outside of the case with a paper towel and swirl around the inside of the neck with a cotton swab…not trying to wipe it out, just distribute the leftover lube so kernels of powder don’t stick in it. Honestly you could skip the cotton swab step and it wont make a difference.

If that works, it’s too time consuming to physically wipe off each case after sizing if you’re doing more than a couple dozen. If so, try throwing your cases in an open topped container and spraying generously with acetone. Let it flash off and the lube goes with it but in my experience it doesn’t take the lube out of the necks. I get the same results as if I just wiped them off (no lube outside but a smooth seating process) but I can de-lube 200 cases in a couple of minutes.

The other option is to re-lube your case necks with something before seating.

 

[JRBullock1987]

Skip the after-sizing tumble. That’s the source of your trouble. Try a few that you just wipe the die wax off the outside of the case with a paper towel and swirl around the inside of the neck with a cotton swab…not trying to wipe it out, just distribute the leftover lube so kernels of powder don’t stick in it. Honestly you could skip the cotton swab step and it wont make a difference.

If that works, it’s too time consuming to physically wipe off each case after sizing if you’re doing more than a couple dozen. If so, try throwing your cases in an open topped container and spraying generously with acetone. Let it flash off and the lube goes with it but in my experience it doesn’t take the lube out of the necks. I get the same results as if I just wiped them off (no lube outside but a smooth seating process) but I can de-lube 200 cases in a couple of minutes.

The other option is to re-lube your case necks with something before seating.

Thanks for the info. I actually tried using dry neck lube and that helped a ton to get it seating smoother and more consistent. I'll have to try what you suggested. Thanks bro.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Sounds like everyone covered your issue.
I have one thing you might want to consider.

Lighten up on the outside deburring, and do more chamfer on the inside.

The outside of the neck of the brass just needs a light deburring. You really shouldn't be able to notice it right away.

For the inside of the neck, use a VLD type of tool and make sure the taper is visible, but don't go beyond 1/2 the thickness of the neck.

 

[JRBullock1987]

Sounds like everyone covered your issue.
I have one thing you might want to consider.

Lighten up on the outside deburring, and do more chamfer on the inside.

The outside of the neck of the brass just needs a light deburring. You really shouldn't be able to notice it right away.

For the inside of the neck, use a VLD type of tool and make sure the taper is visible, but don't go beyond 1/2 the thickness of the neck.

Sounds good. Thanks. I knew I was probably doing the outside too much so I'd try and compensate by doing the inside less so the top wasn't so thin and sharp. I'll try the opposite of what I'm doing.

 

[JRBullock1987]

Question....does anyway use the dry neck lube for the inside of their necks with expander mandrels or do you use regular lube/die wax? If so which do you prefer?

 

[OREGUN]

A little more chamfer and a little less deburr is the way. I assumed your chamfer was adequate. As for lube, I use sprayed on lanolin in alcohol for general resizing using the above process or imperial wax if I’m just messing with a case or two. On the rare occasion that I’ve lubed prior to seating, I either take a touch of die wax to the inside of the neck or run the brass over a Forster case graphiter with motor mica. The problem with either is it is time consuming to single-handle every piece if you are loading in any volume….which is what led to finding a way to get some lube into the necks and have it stay there through the whole process.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Question....does anyway use the dry neck lube for the inside of their necks with expander mandrels or do you use regular lube/die wax? If so which do you prefer?

Neo Lube with the mandrel. Try to only open the neck one or two thousandths.

 

[918v]

Question....does anyway use the dry neck lube for the inside of their necks with expander mandrels or do you use regular lube/die wax? If so which do you prefer?

Redding imperial graphite

 

[Rocketmandb]

Question....does anyway use the dry neck lube for the inside of their necks with expander mandrels or do you use regular lube/die wax? If so which do you prefer?

The problem with using regular lube/wax is that you have to clean it out or it will tend to cause powder to stick to it during charging. It sounds like you're doing that anyway, so it should be ok to use with your SAC die.

However...

This also means that you're not lubing your necks for seating. If you over-clean your necks and don't apply lube, they tend to get very "sticky" during seating. To address this:

- Some people don't clean their necks, instead simply brushing them to release some of the carbon. This acts as a neck lube.
- Some people clean their brass, then apply neck lube for seating to provide more consistency (I am in this camp - primarily because I don't like running dirty cases through my dies).

Of the folks who do apply neck lube, there are a number of different options:

- Use Imperial Neck Lube graphite - dry powder applied by dipping cases in 1mm beads coated in it. This CAN have issues sticking to annealed necks, depending on your process. It doesn't for my process - if you're interested as to why, I can post my theory later - but it's only a theory at this point.

- Use Moly powder. The only issue here is that the only commercially available application mechanism for this is from 21st Century Shooting and for some unknown reason they use 3mm beads as application media - which is completely unacceptably large and they get stuck in smaller cases. I mean for a company that puts out such great stuff, for them to put this out is just poor product development. Fortunately, you can buy 1mm beads on Amazon and make your own.

- Use liquid NeoLube2. Yes... liquid. However, it is graphite suspended in alcohol with a light resin added in and it dries fairly quickly. It coats very evenly and smoothly and ends up looking almost like a paint.

I've tested these fairly extensively and have found that the various lubes/methods rank in this order:

1) Neolube
2) Moly
3) Graphite (with caveats)
4) Don't clean necks and just brush

I will say, however, that the differences between all of these are so small that it's best just to find the one that works the best for you in the process and go with it.

If you're interested in the efficacy of neck lube and how it delivers results, it's in the second half of the video below:

 

[918v]

I think you should clean as much as you want, but use dry lube to expand the necks and to seat the bullets.

 

[Holliday]

I have a titanium nitride coated mandrel. I don’t use any lube.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I have a titanium nitride coated mandrel. I don’t use any lube.

The only issue there is that I haven't seen any coated mandrels in the sets that go in .0005" increments. Also, I've only ever seen them up to 338.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I think you should clean as much as you want, but use dry lube to expand the necks and to seat the bullets.

It also gives you a more consistent baseline vs. not cleaning.

 

[JRBullock1987]

The problem with using regular lube/wax is that you have to clean it out or it will tend to cause powder to stick to it during charging. It sounds like you're doing that anyway, so it should be ok to use with your SAC die.

However...

This also means that you're not lubing your necks for seating. If you over-clean your necks and don't apply lube, they tend to get very "sticky" during seating. To address this:

- Some people don't clean their necks, instead simply brushing them to release some of the carbon. This acts as a neck lube.
- Some people clean their brass, then apply neck lube for seating to provide more consistency (I am in this camp - primarily because I don't like running dirty cases through my dies).

Of the folks who do apply neck lube, there are a number of different options:

- Use Imperial Neck Lube graphite - dry powder applied by dipping cases in 1mm beads coated in it. This CAN have issues sticking to annealed necks, depending on your process. It doesn't for my process - if you're interested as to why, I can post my theory later - but it's only a theory at this point.

- Use Moly powder. The only issue here is that the only commercially available application mechanism for this is from 21st Century Shooting and for some unknown reason they use 3mm beads as application media - which is completely unacceptably large and they get stuck in smaller cases. I mean for a company that puts out such great stuff, for them to put this out is just poor product development. Fortunately, you can buy 1mm beads on Amazon and make your own.

- Use liquid NeoLube2. Yes... liquid. However, it is graphite suspended in alcohol with a light resin added in and it dries fairly quickly. It coats very evenly and smoothly and ends up looking almost like a paint.

I've tested these fairly extensively and have found that the various lubes/methods rank in this order:

1) Neolube
2) Moly
3) Graphite (with caveats)
4) Don't clean necks and just brush

I will say, however, that the differences between all of these are so small that it's best just to find the one that works the best for you in the process and go with it.

If you're interested in the efficacy of neck lube and how it delivers results, it's in the second half of the video below:

Damn thanks for all the info bro. Seriously. I found imperial dry neck lube to work much better for seating than without for sure (1st time trying it) and i didnt even have that much inside the necks (dont have the aplicator ball bearings kit just the raw powder so i put a q tip coated in it inside the necks and wipe them down). Have tried both imperial die wax and dry neck lube while resizing and find the sizing feels maybe a bit smoother with dry neck lube but it's a close toss up (for expander mandrels) however I don't like that the powder goes everywhere from the sizing since without the ball bearing applicator more dry lube sticks to the inside necks since I'm just dunking the tips into the powder and shaking off as much as I can but a ton stays in there. it is easier to dip the necks in dry lube than to swab the insides of my necks with die wax but idk like the mess without the applicator ball bearing which i need to get. Am also a bit worried that the dry neck lube would possibly cause galling since I feel like I've heard that from a few different ppl in forums and sac mandrels aren't cheap so I've just stuck with wiping the insides of the necks with the imperial wax for now Just was curious if a lot of ppl resize their necks with dry lube a lot or use the other options more.

 

[918v]

I have a titanium nitride coated mandrel. I don’t use any lube.

I have a carbide mandrel and I use lube.

 

[OREGUN]

I have a carbide mandrel and I use lube.

Me too

 

[918v]

Am also a bit worried that the dry neck lube would possibly cause galling since I feel like I've heard that from a few different ppl in forums and sac mandrels aren't cheap so I've just stuck with wiping the insides of the necks with the imperial wax for now.

Graphite dry lube cannot possibly cause galling.

 

[Baron23]

Question....does anyway use the dry neck lube for the inside of their necks with expander mandrels or do you use regular lube/die wax? If so which do you prefer?

I spray the inside of the necks with One Shot (I just line them up in a reloading block and spray down at an angle) and a thin coating of Imperial wax on the mandrel (I do separate mandrel die step) refreshed every 10 cases or so.

I then use either Redding dry graphite or Neo Lube inside the necks prior to bullet seating.

I'm no reloading expert so take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[Dolomite]

Another option is to dip the base of the bullet in graphite and give a few swirls. There should be enough graphite sticking to the bullet to allow for easy seating.