Run and gun optic

[bgblue1978]

I'm looking for some opinions on the best optic for a competition AR for 2 gun action run and gun style matches. The matches consistent of running with guns and gear between 3-6 miles with rifle portions of the stages usually between 50-500 yards. Currently using a vortex pst gen 2 1-6x but I'm considering something a little lighter.

My top choices right now are a 4x acog or a lighter 1-6 maybe trijicon creedo or Leupold patrol 6 hd?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

 

[Beachhead192]

While 1-6 or 1-8 sound great, I don't think you would do bad with a light 3-9 or even 4-12 or 16 if you can find one that won't be overly heavy. If you are decent at shooting with both eyes open you can easily like use a 3-9 or 4-16x and at 500 yards 16x will make things easy.

Obviously, you need to consider the weight, but I would really put pen to paper and look at the cost and weights of the different options and capabilities that they give you... you may find that for an extra 6-8oz, you could have an extra 10x magnification. That's a trade off that I would take.

 

[acudaowner]

if running with scissors is a dangerous thing to do , and drinking and driving is also bad to do , than running around while drunk with loaded firearm sounds like a party of good times .

 

[502Chevelle]

Don’t quite think that Beachhead understands that you are going to be running a 5k with shooting stages rolled in and you are trying to save weight. If you are serious about the weight cut, look at the Lead Star LWR. They have cut that thing down to a rediculous weight. A lot of east coast run n gunners are using 1-4 scopes with a bdc or mil type reticle. If you zero at 200, shoot it flat to 225. 300 is a 10” hold, and you can use your reticle holdovers on the few longer targets. Lots of scopes to choose from, just watch the weight, and don’t forget about the weight of your mount. May be lighter to run rings than a one piece.

 

[TurboTrout]

Vortex razor LPVO seems to be the go to

 

[502Chevelle]

Vortex is good but heavy if you are weight watching, and Acogs are just plain heavy! Burris Rt6 is a little lighter and has a good reticle but I can tell you for a fact, you have to shoot it at distance to see how the lines match your rifle and ammo. I have this scope and like it, but you can’t assume anything at 500 yds.

 

[db2000]

I can’t imagine if you can run 6 miles a few more oz on a scope are going to matter. It is, after all, an extremely important piece of the puzzle.

 

[502Chevelle]

Tell that to all the people who pass out at these races from over exertion or heat related issues. I know ounces don’t sound like much, but it makes a difference if you can cut down as much as you can. It’s all part of a system when you think about it. You are carrying pistol and ammo, and a rifle and ammo. Why not lighten it up and save a little. I love my .40STI, but I’m carrying a 9mm Glock for this race. If you are 30 and in the service in a spec war sort of way, 2lbs won’t matter to you, but so many people could benefit from saving that Weight. It all depends on how serious you are about the sport. Or, you could just take my wife’s point of view on it, “Why spend all that money on a new gun and scope, when you could just go on a diet.”

 

[db2000]

Tell that to all the people who pass out at these races from over exertion or heat related issues. I know ounces don’t sound like much, but it makes a difference if you can cut down as much as you can. It’s all part of a system when you think about it. You are carrying pistol and ammo, and a rifle and ammo. Why not lighten it up and save a little. I love my .40STI, but I’m carrying a 9mm Glock for this race. If you are 30 and in the service in a spec war sort of way, 2lbs won’t matter to you, but so many people could benefit from saving that Weight. It all depends on how serious you are about the sport. Or, you could just take my wife’s point of view on it, “Why spend all that money on a new gun and scope, when you could just go on a diet.”

I’m not debating that. My point is I’m not sure my optic is where I’m cutting weight unless there’s no compromise in the lighter optic. You can shed pounds through a lot of other changes.

 

[Shawn1492]

What race is this for? Sounds awesome.

 

[502Chevelle]

Google thegunrun.us and you can see the details. You sign up and put down your expected pace, and they give you a stepping off time that you will leave the start line. A runner leaves every few minutes. You run or walk a cross country course, encountering a uspsa style 2 gun stage every so often. You carry all your stuff and may cross creeks, mud flats etc. some of the shots will go out to around 400 yards but target size is usually generous. Your run time and shooting score are combined to give you an overall score. Signup is coming soon for a race near the end of June at Sawmill training complex in upstate SC.

 

[1911hombre]

Vortex is good but heavy if you are weight watching, and Acogs are just plain heavy! Burris Rt6 is a little lighter and has a good reticle but I can tell you for a fact, you have to shoot it at distance to see how the lines match your rifle and ammo. I have this scope and like it, but you can’t assume anything at 500 yds.

RT6 is 17.4 oz.
ACOG TA-31 is 15.8 oz.

 

[502Chevelle]

Was looking at the 6x48 which is 40 oz. the TA-31 could be an option.

 

[bgblue1978]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not interested in anything heavier. Yes I understand that a few ounces doesn't seem like it would matter but it all adds up. At the same time I agree, I won't sacrifice quality of scope to get a few ounces off but if I can find something high quality at a lower weight why not.

Anyone have experience with the credo 1-6x or the Leupold patrol 6 that can compare it to a pst or a razor 1-6?

 

[bgblue1978]

I ended up going with an acog for this gun. In the end the weight savings enticed me over any lpvo in that price range. If it doesn't work out I'll just go back to the PST.

 

[Rerun7]

Let us know how it goes.

I run a few of these per year and in the beginning tried several setups. I have settled on the Razor 1-6. It’s heavy but the BDC is spot on and it’s repeatable/reliable. We have targets from 10 - 500 yards and eventually, almost all the guys I run with have gone to an LPVO with a BDC.

I’m old and I’m not a great runner so I tried to cut as much weight as possible at first and learned that saving a lb wasn’t worth giving up benefits like the above.

Also depends if you are wanting to really “compete” or just have fun. I’ve found that if I can finish in the top 10 runners and top 5 shooters I have a decent shot at winning.

 

[bgblue1978]

Will do. I've only done a few events but I've seen vast majority of people with lpvo and only the occasional acog or red dot magnifier combo. I was competitive with the vortex PST 1-6 but I broke my second one so I was looking for something different to try. I certainly don't think a pound or an optic change will make or break my scores. At least on strelok the acog bdc lines up almost perfectly with my load so I figured it's worth a try.

 

[NHR]

I've competed in lots of Run N Guns since 2015. Along the way I've used irons(20" A2), 1-4 LPVO, 1-6 LPVO, and 2.5-10 "MPVO" w/ piggyback MRDS.

The various matches have different characters and different focus. Some have the longest shot at 300 yards on a big steel, others might have a stage with a field of 8-10" plates from 100-500 yards, and a few stretch out to 600 on silhouettes.

Weight of the rifle matters, but not nearly as much as your overall fitness and shooting ability. In my experience there is a pretty large skill and fitness gap between the top 10-20% and the mid-pack finishers. The last 2 matches I RO'd had lots of runners with Gucci rifle & pistol setups who didn't have basic fundamentals of marksmanship or even average fitness.

My general suggestion is to focus on the shooting and fitness more than the gear. You do need some key pieces: A rifle and optic that enables you to get hits at 600, a reliable pistol and retention holster, a secure way of carrying y mags. Once you have those basics covered you'll see minimal gains from upgrading gear.

As far as optics choice goes: they all work. If I'm going in blind and don't know what the terrain, targets, or distances will be then I default to the 2.5-10 with MRDS. It does everything well. If I know it'll be a short range course or have large steel I'll take the 1-6, although I'm about to put a piggyback on that as well.

 

[bgblue1978]

NHR, thanks that's great advice. I'm always continuing to improve fitness and fundamentals of shooting but thanks for the reminder. I have a couple of top 3 finishes and certainly a different optic wouldn't have gotten me over the hump to a win.

I'm going to run this acog in training for a little bit and a few matches to see how much I feel like it gives up in these particular events that are 100-500 yards. In other events that are unknown I'll probably still use my 1-6 for the versatility.

 

[cas6969]

I'm tired just reading it.

 

[Rerun7]

Which runs are you competing in?

 

[Bart]

I have always appreciated the simplicity, usefulness and light weight of the acogs during run and guns. Also, as an RO, you see people come into the stage, hit the vtac barricade and set there for a while, fucking with eye relief and the power ring....acog users just get down to business
I run one rng that requires 2 hits on 500 yd targets, acogs work great on those as well.
Best of luck to you, OP, and keep us posted!
Jordan

 

[Bakwa]

Having done a few RNG events I'll say that I prefer a plain RDS if targets aren't farther than 200yds, LPVO if targets go to 500yds and are larger than 4MOA, and a MPVO (2.5-10) with a RMR or SRO if targets are further/smaller.

The event definitely dictates the setup/loadout.
Being in shape is key.
Being able to apply shooting fundamentals while you're tired will make you competitive.

I'll be at Sweat'n'bullets in 17 South, Savannah this August. I'll be running an AK with RDS and I'll be ready to get sandy and hot.

I hope to see some of you guys there.

Cheers

 

[NHR]

If you're already doing well in the matches then I'd say let your freak flag fly and run whatever you want.

You'll get lots of meaningless advice from anonymous people who have never done anything like this. I've been told that the 12:00 piggyback MRDS is "impossible" to use, yet I've taken top overall shooter with that setup.

One guy ran 17 south last summer with a basic 20" A2 rifle and took 1st place.

Even if the ACOG isn't the perfect solution you can probably still embarrass a lot of people with it.

 

[r.tenorio671]

As far as optics choice goes: they all work. If I'm going in blind and don't know what the terrain, targets, or distances will be then I default to the 2.5-10 with MRDS. It does everything well. If I know it'll be a short range course or have large steel I'll take the 1-6, although I'm about to put a piggyback on that as well.

....interesting statement.

 

[TheHorta]

Google thegunrun.us and you can see the details. You sign up and put down your expected pace, and they give you a stepping off time that you will leave the start line. A runner leaves every few minutes. You run or walk a cross country course, encountering a uspsa style 2 gun stage every so often. You carry all your stuff and may cross creeks, mud flats etc. some of the shots will go out to around 400 yards but target size is usually generous. Your run time and shooting score are combined to give you an overall score. Signup is coming soon for a race near the end of June at Sawmill training complex in upstate SC.

“4-Days” wasn’t an option in the “Expected Pace” dropdown.

W. T. F. ?!

I’m out!

 

[NHR]

....interesting statement.

The 12:00 piggyback gets a lot of hate but I always seem to find a situation where it's the fastest/easiest option. It really shines on barricades with tight ports and awkward positions.

It's also great to use on close targets when monopoding off a mag and you're main optic is dialed up to max power.

 

[Rerun7]

“4-Days” wasn’t an option in the “Expected Pace” dropdown.

W. T. F. ?!

I’m out!

That’s the “wobble and gun” division

I keep wanting them to do a competition that incorporates UTVs and you can do a rolling assault, haha.

 

[Rerun7]

The 12:00 piggyback gets a lot of hate but I always seem to find a situation where it's the fastest/easiest option. It really shines on barricades with tight ports and awkward positions.

It's also great to use on close targets when monopoding off a mag and you're main optic is dialed up to max power.

If it works for you then roll with it. Don’t let the haters keep you down.

 

[stefan73]

There are a lot of ways to drop weight or make up the weight for a good optic. I know the old adage is "ounces make pounds", but sometimes you just have to deal with it.

Sounds like a fun competition. Do they have an "old broken retiree" class?

https://rubbercityarmory.com/produc...223-ti-ultralight-profile-adjustable-gas-key/

 

[TurboTrout]

I was just thinking, what are you running for a sling?

I’d try to replicate a biathalon sling/harness, think a good carrying system will make a world of difference on the 6mi run part

I’d wager you could modify a biathlon harness and sling to QD or Mloc or whatever


Harness

Anschutz - Biathlon Harness - COMFORT LIGHT

Anschutz - Biathlon Harness - COMFORT LIGHT

www.tesro.ca

Anschutz Biathlon leather sling - Biathlon Equipment - TESRO Canada

Biathlon shooting sling by Anschutz, premium biathlon gear made in Germany available at TESRO Canada.

www.tesro.ca

Sling

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

I can’t imagine if you can run 6 miles a few more oz on a scope are going to matter. It is, after all, an extremely important piece of the puzzle.

Holy hell, those seem to be the words of a person who has never rucked 50 pounds up a mountain or across the shifting sands of a beach.

Back in the day, conventional wisdom was "ounces become pounds at altitude and distance", there were times I would'a traded my first-born child to save a few ounces on a formation run with combat load.

I'm sorry, I can't respond to the rest, am so distraught by the thought of being the only Marine that cared about ounces...

 

[bgblue1978]

I'm using a tab gear biathlon sling on qd mounts. That's a place where I know shaving weight would be detrimental. That sling setup is over 3/4 lb but I have tested and I run significantly faster with that sling than any other setup I've tried.

I've considered a low mass bcg just for fun but again there's a point where the few ounces saved are expensive. This lighter setup is a 13" Barrel with mid length gas using a vg6 brake. It piles up brass neatly and shoots really flat considering the size and weight. I'd like to play with adjustable gas and low Mass internals but that will have to wait a while.

 

[db2000]

Holy hell, those seem to be the words of a person who has never rucked 50 pounds up a mountain or across the shifting sands of a beach.

Back in the day, conventional wisdom was "ounces become pounds at altitude and distance", there were times I would'a traded my first-born child to save a few ounces on a formation run with combat load.

I'm sorry, I can't respond to the rest, am so distraught by the thought of being the only Marine that cared about ounces...

First off, thanks for your service.

Second, the worst I’ve experienced was packing elks out of gulches in CO. It’s brutal. I was also not it trained shape for that.

Don’t twist my words into me not thinking weight isn’t an issue or important. I clearly stated it is. All that said, I don’t think a few ounces would have made any difference in my misery while packing out 70# of elk. If it does matter to some, shave them somewhere other than glass like I stated.

 

[fdkay]

I'm looking for some opinions on the best optic for a competition AR for 2 gun action run and gun style matches. The matches consistent of running with guns and gear between 3-6 miles with rifle portions of the stages usually between 50-500 yards. Currently using a vortex pst gen 2 1-6x but I'm considering something a little lighter.

My top choices right now are a 4x acog or a lighter 1-6 maybe trijicon creedo or Leupold patrol 6 hd?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

March 1-10 is just over 17.5 ozs

1-10x24mm Compact - CH or Di-plex Reticles - Covered Knobs - 1/4 MOA Clicks March D10V24

 

[bgblue1978]

March 1-10 is just over 17.5 ozs

1-10x24mm Compact - CH or Di-plex Reticles - Covered Knobs - 1/4 MOA Clicks March D10V24

Outside of my budget but great suggestion, thanks.

March 1-10 and Khales 1-6/8 would all be great choices if budget allowed.

 

[TurboTrout]

I'm using a tab gear biathlon sling on qd mounts. That's a place where I know shaving weight would be detrimental. That sling setup is over 3/4 lb but I have tested and I run significantly faster with that sling than any other setup I've tried.

I've considered a low mass bcg just for fun but again there's a point where the few ounces saved are expensive. This lighter setup is a 13" Barrel with mid length gas using a vg6 brake. It piles up brass neatly and shoots really flat considering the size and weight. I'd like to play with adjustable gas and low Mass internals but that will have to wait a while.

Might want to try to find a real biathlon harness, it’s designed for pretty much your exact mission, kinda $$ but maybe you can find a used one

 

[308pirate]

I keep wanting them to do a competition that incorporates UTVs and you can do a rolling assault, haha.

Or cavalry charge

 

[r.tenorio671]

Sounds like a fun competition. Do they have an "old broken retiree" class?

.... that is definitely my class

 

[NHR]

That’s the “wobble and gun” division

I keep wanting them to do a competition that incorporates UTVs and you can do a rolling assault, haha.

I've actually been in 2 of these that involved shooting from vehicles.

First one was riding in a sxs down a dirt road. You had to engage paper targets as they became visible, 3 hits per in the A/C zone. Rifle only.

Second one involved shooting from a pickup as it advanced on a structure. There were targets in the open to fire at. When the truck stopped you dismounted and cleared the structure.

 

[r.tenorio671]

The 12:00 piggyback gets a lot of hate but I always seem to find a situation where it's the fastest/easiest option. It really shines on barricades with tight ports and awkward positions.

It's also great to use on close targets when monopoding off a mag and you're main optic is dialed up to max power.

....I played around with a Fastfire RD piggy-backed on one of my scopes "just to see", and I would agree with you on it being faster to use in the 12 o'clock orientation. It really worked well (for me) with a natural "heads up", no neck craning or weird contortions of neck or arms. It was critical to get the zeroing of the RD right due the over-bore height.

....In the LVPO's on friends carbines, I found it much harder (for me) to use it like a RDS, it basically took me time to "hunt" for the dot/^ on the lowest magnification setting. With practice I'm sure it could be overcome, but if it is "un-natural" to begin with, I'll put it on the back-burner.

 

[pk5333]

where do I find such events? I love running and I love shooting, this is right up my alley.

 

[NHR]

where do I find such events? I love running and I love shooting, this is right up my alley.

Shall Not Be Infringed

The Gun Run is a center fire biathlon. The Gun Run provides shooting events for Second Amendment supporters.

thegunrun.us

 

[pmclaine]

LPVO is probably the way to go but if you are thinking ACOG go with the TA-33 at 3X rather than the 4X.

You will get better eye relief and wont be like looking through a straw pressed against your eyeball.

Down side if you wear glasses you will need them to use the ACOG.

Running and gunning with prescriptions on would suck, if you are a contacts man than never mind.

 

[Rerun7]

where do I find such events? I love running and I love shooting, this is right up my alley.

Just google search run and gun. There are events all over the country.

 

[FuhQ]

I'm looking for some opinions on the best optic for a competition AR for 2 gun action run and gun style matches. The matches consistent of running with guns and gear between 3-6 miles with rifle portions of the stages usually between 50-500 yards. Currently using a vortex pst gen 2 1-6x but I'm considering something a little lighter.

My top choices right now are a 4x acog or a lighter 1-6 maybe trijicon creedo or Leupold patrol 6 hd?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

The new Vortex Spitfire 3x or 5x Prism optic gets my vote. I've been running the old Gen1 3x Spitfire Prism scopes for nearly 10 years. Beat them up pretty good, and they always hold zero. They're SUPER tough, and the glass is pretty damn good for the money. Also, ADM Mfg. makes QD mount bases for them. So, that gets my vote for my R&G optic. That's what I have on my SHTF rifles.