Run Out problems I give up......

[jugi16]

I've been reloading for 10 years now and for what ever reason I can't figure out whats going on with my 260 loaded ammo. Everything else I load for on my Rock chucker comes out at 0.000-0.002 mostly the 0.001 range.

So here is what I'm doing.


Lapua brass annealed every second firing.
Full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back .002" no expander ball.
Size up the necks with my Sinclair expander mandrels left a bit loose to float in the mandrel holder.
Trim and chamfer necks.
Put brass on a concentricity gauge and 100% of them are .000-.001 after

I've been using 140 ELDm bullets, but it doesn't matter, my other bullets are doing the same thing.

I thought the seating stem on my Forster Ultra might have been cracked, so I ordered 2 new ones. Lapped one to the 140 ELDm and both stems produce 0.001-0.005" most of the rounds are falling in the 003"-004" range.

Got fed up and ordered an Arbor press and Wilson seater, and am getting the same results.

I bought an inside neck reamer to see if it was possibly a donut forming causing me issues but it isn't.

They aren't compressed loads just the usual 42.3 of H4350.

WTF.........over

 

[I SHOOT]

Tagging in
Im interested in the responses to this

 

[Mike_in_FL]

but how does it shoot?

 

[Steel head]

Where on the bullet are you measuring out of curiosity?

 

[LtDan47]

How much neck tension are you using?

 

[kthomas]

but how does it shoot?

This is all that really matters.

Is it a real problem, or an imaginary problem?

 

[KYpatriot]

I've been reloading for 10 years now and for what ever reason I can't figure out whats going on with my 260 loaded ammo. Everything else I load for on my Rock chucker comes out at 0.000-0.002 mostly the 0.001 range.

So here is what I'm doing.


Lapua brass annealed every second firing.
Full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back .002" no expander ball.
Size up the necks with my Sinclair expander mandrels left a bit loose to float in the mandrel holder.
Trim and chamfer necks.
Put brass on a concentricity gauge and 100% of them are .000-.001 after

I've been using 140 ELDm bullets, but it doesn't matter, my other bullets are doing the same thing.

I thought the seating stem on my Forster Ultra might have been cracked, so I ordered 2 new ones. Lapped one to the 140 ELDm and both stems produce 0.001-0.005" most of the rounds are falling in the 003"-004" range.

Got fed up and ordered an Arbor press and Wilson seater, and am getting the same results.

I bought an inside neck reamer to see if it was possibly a donut forming causing me issues but it isn't.

They aren't compressed loads just the usual 42.3 of H4350.

WTF.........over

Have you tried a different cocentricity gauge? Have you ever measured less runout on any other ammo?

Id like to hear the answer to Lt Dan’s question as well.

 

[jugi16]

This is all that really matters.

Is it a real problem, or an imaginary problem?

kthomas it shoots well always has. Good ES SD holds well under a MOA out to 1000. I’ve just been really puzzled as to why I can’t get good concentricity with what I have been doing. I’m leaning toward something, but before I do I wanted an opinion from someone else here that may have an idea that I haven’t thought of.

 

[KYpatriot]

Ok this is crazy and unlikely if you are this far into reloading...but your primers are square and seated just under flush right? So that the case sits exactly square and flat in the press?

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Seating stems crack?

 

[McHaggis]

My Forster Micro Seater does the same thing. The best way I’ve found to minimise it is to start the bullet into the case a wee bit then stop, lower the ram and rotate the case 180° then continue to fully seat. This reduces runout from 4, 5 or 6 thou down to 1 or 2. I always thought Forster were the ducks nuts but I keep wondering if I’m doing something wrong??? Case runout prior to seating is under .001”.

 

[kthomas]

kthomas it shoots well always has. Good ES SD holds well under a MOA out to 1000. I’ve just been really puzzled as to why I can’t get good concentricity with what I have been doing. I’m leaning toward something, but before I do I wanted an opinion from someone else here that may have an idea that I haven’t thought of.

So it performs absolutely fine, from a functional stand point there is absolutely no problem - correct?

If that's the case, it sounds like you are worrying about an "issue" that isn't really an issue.

 

[pabrousseau]

''My Forster Micro Seater does the same thing. The best way I’ve found to minimise it is to start the bullet into the case a wee bit then stop, lower the ram and rotate the case 180° then continue to fully seat. This reduces runout from 4, 5 or 6 thou down to 1 or 2. I always thought Forster were the ducks nuts but I keep wondering if I’m doing something wrong??? Case runout prior to seating is under .001”.


also try spinning the seater stem of the on the nose of the bullet in the Wilson seater. I would think if it shooting that well the runout is not hurting you unless you have a rifle you expect far better accuracy from.

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Reactions: You

 

[47guy]

If that's the case, it sounds like you are worrying about an "issue" that isn't really an issue.

worrying about an issue thats not an issue is the issue most times...reloading is the most over thought thing in the world and it seems ppl look for issues and are not happy until they find one to fix.

 

[jugi16]

My Forster Micro Seater does the same thing. The best way I’ve found to minimise it is to start the bullet into the case a wee bit then stop, lower the ram and rotate the case 180° then continue to fully seat. This reduces runout from 4, 5 or 6 thou down to 1 or 2. I always thought Forster were the ducks nuts but I keep wondering if I’m doing something wrong??? Case runout prior to seating is under .001”.

I've always done this.

How much neck tension are you using?

0.002"

Have you tried a different cocentricity gauge? Have you ever measured less runout on any other ammo?

Id like to hear the answer to Lt Dan’s question as well.

When I load for my 300 Norma every round is 0-.001" using the same methods of reloading.

 

[KYpatriot]

worrying about an issue thats not an issue is the issue most times...reloading is the most over thought thing in the world and it seems ppl look for issues and are not happy until they find one to fix.

While this is true, it can also be fun to manufacture something to the best of your ability. I dont blame the OP for wanting to know the answer. I find some of the rabbit holes in this sport enjoyable....even if frustrating at times.

 

[47guy]

While this is true, it can also be fun to manufacture something to the best of your ability. I dont blame the OP for wanting to know the answer. I find some of the rabbit holes in this sport enjoyable....even if frustrating at times.

but at the same time this will drive the OP crazy and he says it shoots under MOA at 1000yds so its not REALLY a problem its over thinking OCD and creating a problem thats not there....my advise to the OP is try a different die...as a matter of fact @jugi16 i have a wilson in line micro seater die from when i shot a 260 shoot me a PM with your addy and its yours.

 

[427Cobra]

What is the runout of fired brass

 

[ZiaHunter]

Before expanding the neck with a mandrel check concentricity. The mandrels have been known to effect concentricity.

 

[jugi16]

but at the same time this will drive the OP crazy and he says it shoots under MOA at 1000yds so its not REALLY a problem its over thinking OCD and creating a problem thats not there....my advise to the OP is try a different die...as a matter of fact @jugi16 i have a wilson in line micro seater die from when i shot a 260 shoot me a PM with your addy and its yours.

Thanks but if you read my post I already have gone that route. Much appreciated!

Before expanding the neck with a mandrel check concentricity. The mandrels have been known to effect concentricity.

Read the post.....after I expand, my brass is perfect. Not trying to be rude.....

 

[KYpatriot]

Any galling or sticking with the seater? Is it releasing the bullet cleanly without grabbing or popping?

 

[47guy]

is this a factory gun?

 

[Alabusa]

Could it be that you are annealing too much? Do you have a reason for doing it every 2nd firing? Seems the necks may be too soft and deforming.

 

[larryh128]

I've been reloading for 10 years now and for what ever reason I can't figure out whats going on with my 260 loaded ammo. Everything else I load for on my Rock chucker comes out at 0.000-0.002 mostly the 0.001 range.

So here is what I'm doing.


Lapua brass annealed every second firing.
Full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back .002" no expander ball.
Size up the necks with my Sinclair expander mandrels left a bit loose to float in the mandrel holder.
Trim and chamfer necks.
Put brass on a concentricity gauge and 100% of them are .000-.001 after

I've been using 140 ELDm bullets, but it doesn't matter, my other bullets are doing the same thing.

I thought the seating stem on my Forster Ultra might have been cracked, so I ordered 2 new ones. Lapped one to the 140 ELDm and both stems produce 0.001-0.005" most of the rounds are falling in the 003"-004" range.

Got fed up and ordered an Arbor press and Wilson seater, and am getting the same results.

I bought an inside neck reamer to see if it was possibly a donut forming causing me issues but it isn't.

They aren't compressed loads just the usual 42.3 of H4350.

WTF.........over

What I have done to lessen runout is to seat the bullet about 1/2 depth, rotate the case 90 degrees and finish seating it. It will cut your normal runout down considerably.

 

[jugi16]

is this a factory gun?

PGW Coyote.

Could it be that you are annealing too much? Do you have a reason for doing it every 2nd firing? Seems the necks may be too soft and deforming.

Nope with the bullet seated the necks are still 0-001"

 

[Milo 2.5]

PGW Coyote.



Nope with the bullet seated the necks are still 0-001"

If you have taken a reading after each process, it has to be the seating stage. If it has an adverse effect, try a diff seater. But first try seating the bullet half way, rotate 120 deg and do a final push. You could also try a rotation once fully seated, if seated properly, you should not feel much, if not, you will feel a nudge, I have to do this on occasion for seat depth, surprising what a simple turn can do.

 

[clcustom1911]

After a couple cups of coffee I believe I've come up with an unreasonable answer to your non-problem/boggle:

I think if you can ascertain the airspeed of both an African AND European Swallow, you'll be able to find your answer to your problem which is a non-problem because your results downrange are what actually matter. My hat's off to you for going through this level of mental expenditure over something that doesn't effect what the target feels.

How do you measure neck tension? With precision ground pin gauge? Or with measuring the OD of neck before and after seating bullet? Like @Steel head asked, "where do you measure for your runout?" Have you thought about turning your necks?

The one variable you havent changed in your whole process and the issue still persists....is the 140 ELDm. But you've already addressed that the same thing happens to all round bullets you use.

Perhaps you should separate your loaded rounds by runout and shoot them on paper at 400-500 yards and see if you can even shoot the difference between the 0.000, 0.001, 0.002, 0.003, 0.004, etc, and you cant just shoot one 5 or 10 shot group for each runout measurement. In order for the data to even trend to any sort of significance you would need to shoot probably 10 groups of each runout measurement so you can have group sizes by average, standard deviation to the first, second, and third degree, etc for each of the runout measurements, then compare the hundreds upon hundreds of rounds you shot to find out what the difference really is in your rifle.

Or, since everything you make shoots sub-MOA at 1000 with good SD and ES, you can just load and shoot because the ability to make that level of ammo consistently is awesome in and of itself. Super nice rifle, by the way.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Sorry, I posted yesterday, and failed to read that you had switched to an arbor press and inline seaters. One thought, is it the bullets themselves? I guess we never hear much on this front. Try seating a different bullet.
Runout is one of the biggest grey areas in reloading. For you to run tests, you are basically wasting barrel life and may never find a solution. My first 7 saum loads had .005-.006" TIR, I wasn't smart enough to realize the number was .003". The runout was in my rds, and more importantly, it was in my head, the one place where it had no effect, was downrange. The rifle shot some groups at 1450, 1650, and 1850 that you don't want to tell people about because they are going to call you a liar.
When a guy thinks about things, if you FL size, every rd you chamber is probably .003" under chamber dimensions diameter wise, wouldn't that be .0015" of unaccounted for runout, yet rifles shoot lights out. Every trick we pull out as reloaders will always fall back on a couple things. Are we capable, but maybe even bigger, equal, or lesser, is the rifle capable?
We all spend money for peace of mind, and I'm not about to say you are chasing your tail here, I did it too, cost a lot of coin. Today I no longer have the dies, or press used back when it was a concern, to run a simple test. Back 4 yrs or so ago, I quit cleaning primer pockets. and I didn't just clean, I did it with a uniformer, 35-4500 times a yr. I don't transfer brass form gun to gun, so longevity or the chance of serious buildup was not an issue. My ammo today is way better than in those days, I guess I have chosen to pick my battles more carefully.