Rifle Scopes S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

[Cartman]

Guys, my knowledge base is strong and long when it comes to trapshooting, pretty good with pistols, but short and weak when it comes to long range precision shooting. Looking back, I feel I didn't know much before I started hanging out here.

I can afford my choice of high-end optics. And my Israeli wife has been watching Glenn Beck and "The Matrix" so she is very zombie-horde sensitive right now and wants me to go ahead and buy some high-end glass. I will be buying at least five or six pieces so this is a major outlay I don't want to F-up.

She does not have a problem with me buying S&B for over $3K a pop. Where I could get in trouble is if in five years S&B, or whomever I wind up with, comes out with something new that makes me want to change things out. This would not go over well. Currently, for example, I would want Horus reticles and the illumination knob to not block the view of the parallax adjustment on a S&B.

I was hoping some of you who have been at this for five, ten, or twenty years, recall the history of evolutionary changes in S&B and other top-shelf scope makers.

If you have the time, could you give your opinion on the intervals between changes that made you REALLY want to update your scopes, and what changes you foresee for the near and distant future, and when they might happen, that would similarly influence you?

Thank you in advance.

 

[jasonk]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Currently, for example, I would want Horus reticles and the illumination knob to not block the view of the parallax adjustment on a S&B.</div></div>

Have you considered the Zeiss Hensoldt?

What power range are you looking for in the zombie zapping scopes?

 

[lizzardking308]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

PM Sent

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

Well, I have mildot FFP scopes. They work, and will continue to.

Somewhere down the road, I expect to be able to buy at a reasonable price a scope with a thermal imager, built-in rangefinder, and ballistic computer which will automatically adjust the electronic reticle to hit whatever target it is pointed at.

I can't say when that is likely to happen, though.

In the meantime, I have one good scope on each of my precision rifles. I only own three, feeling that the road to proficiency with a precision rifle is to shoot a lot of one good load in one good rifle with a good scope.

 

[Cartman]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Currently, for example, I would want Horus reticles and the illumination knob to not block the view of the parallax adjustment on a S&B.</div></div>

Have you considered the Zeiss Hensoldt?

What power range are you looking for in the zombie zapping scopes? </div></div>

No zero stop right? I would worry I would get lost.

The 3-12 range, 4-16, and 5-25, all have their appeal. I have two .50BMG's, and .308's, so 100-1000 and 1000+. Will also be adding .338LM, a .408CT barrel for my Windrunner, and 6.5 Grendel, so all ranges.

And for those who will doubtless chime in, I do NOT consider myself a 1000+ meter shooter. But I intend to be, and have an indulgent wife and ability to get the toys that make such shooting possible.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

Cartman,

Can't help you on the evolution of S&B scopes, nor which one for proper zombie zapping, but you do need one of these:

And for the wife of a dedicated Zombie Hunter, a nifty and sporty tote bag perhaps:

And remember always...."Aim for the Head"

 

[Cartman]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

Thanks Bobin!

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

A high quality optic will be useful for decades. However, I can see technology evolving with sophisticated electronics included in the basic opto-mechanical device. How quickly? Some of it's here now, but clunky - ballistic calculators, auto focus, electronic reticles and zooming, and laser rangefinders. There will always be shooters who opt for "old school" technologies and equipment. But if you're a person who constantly seeks the latest gizmo, then you could be disappointed with your choices today.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Currently, for example, I would want Horus reticles and the illumination knob to not block the view of the parallax adjustment on a S&B.</div></div>

Have you considered the Zeiss Hensoldt?

What power range are you looking for in the zombie zapping scopes? </div></div>

No zero stop right? I would worry I would get lost.

The 3-12 range, 4-16, and 5-25, all have their appeal. I have two .50BMG's, and .308's, so 100-1000 and 1000+. Will also be adding .338LM, a .408CT barrel for my Windrunner, and 6.5 Grendel, so all ranges.

And for those who will doubtless chime in, I do NOT consider myself a 1000+ meter shooter. But I intend to be, and have an indulgent wife and ability to get the toys that make such shooting possible.</div></div>

There is no zero stop, but it will also not go a full revolution below zero, so it "stops" before getting lost is possible and is easy to return to zero... using it is not an issue.

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But if you're a person who constantly seeks the latest gizmo, then you could be disappointed with your choices today.</div></div>

The first electronic calculator I had was a Texas Instruments SR-10:

http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/texas_instruments_sr-10.html

Many others followed - including the HP15C emulator which runs on my HP iPAQ 111 today, although I mostly use an Excel spreadsheet running on the iPAQ for anything very complicated.

The first computer I programmed was an IBM 1620, in 1966. That was <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> primitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1620

The lesson I learned is to pick whatever of the current technology seems best, and learn to use it. Yeah, you'll have to replace it later. Things change. Get over it.

 

[Magnumdood]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A high quality optic will be useful for decades. However, I can see technology evolving with sophisticated electronics included in the basic opto-mechanical device. How quickly? Some of it's here now, but clunky - ballistic calculators, auto focus, electronic reticles and zooming, and laser rangefinders. There will always be shooters who opt for "old school" technologies and equipment. But if you're a person who constantly seeks the latest gizmo, then you could be disappointed with your choices today. </div></div>
Basics first, which can be astronomically expensive. You can buy one or more solid rifle(s) and bullet-proof optic(s). What you can't buy is competence. You need to get training from someone who knows what they are doing. Seek out specialized schools. Ask questions of professionals. Where did they train? How are they training now? Then practice, practice, practice…after you have received instruction, during more instruction and after that as well. It is a perishable skill. Not as easily lost as some hard-won competencies, but perishable non-the-less.

I love to hunt. I've been hunting on my own since I was 10. I see hunting as a way to shoot live targets, feed my family (if I ever needed to), and of course, relaxation. I keep my eye honed by regularly sighting in shotguns, pistols, muzzle loaders and my rifle. If the SHTF, I have my "Oh SHIT" pack ready to go. We have a family plan in the event of a terrorist attack or a natural disaster. I'll do all I can. I've found, through personal experience, that anything electronic <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">will</span></span> go TU when you can least afford it to. At the moment I have only one real rifle. I've nearly reached the end of a long and expensive educational journey. I had to sell most of my firearms to help finance my education, but, I made sure I kept one solid rifle topped by a good scope (THE Best – PRH) and I practice when I can. Not as much as these guys do, but the demands on me aren't nearly so great. So, buy wisely and stock up on zombie repellent.

 

[Cartman]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

Thanks Lowlight. I didn't understand that about them. I guess I'll look into them more as I assume the Zeiss glass and coatings are at or near the top. Unfortunately I don't know anyone running one, have never seen one here in San Diego, and other than your review -- which I'll watch and read now -- don't read much about. Thus, I'm kind of in the dark.

And the zombie thing is just the impetus that drove the wife to give me the thumbs up regarding the high-end glass and some new guns I've mentioned wistfully over the years. I'm keen to get while the gettin's good if you know what I mean.

I've done the starving student thing -- during grade school, college, and grad school so I know how fun that is. I even lived in a tent for a time during college so remember the story Bernard Malamud told in "The Fixer" -- it can always get worse. We're on the opposite end of the spectrum today and shooting is one of my top hobbies along with photography and I not only shoot, but it is probably safe to say I collect guns as I have several I've never even fired.

 

[Magnumdood]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

I'm jealous.

 

[Magnumdood]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And the zombie thing is just the impetus that drove the wife to give me the thumbs up regarding the high-end glass and some new guns I've mentioned wistfully over the years. I'm keen to get while the gettin's good if you know what I mean.
</div></div>
I haven't watched Beck in a while. Could you put this "Zombie" issue in some sort of context?

 

[gugubica]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

Your situation is an easy problem to have with an easy solution.

If you wife is giving you the full ability to equip up you gear, you simply buy the most expencive glass you can find that has the best resale value.

That way, if you wind up not liking it or want to upgrade it, you can come out the best on selling it (she would not even have to know).

I would not wait to long to buy stuff though, female minds are often fickle, and she could soon change her mind. BUY SOON!!

 

[JRose]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

Zero stop is not necessary in a Hendsolt. What Frank said is true, but also, it has so much elevation travel in one turn that you might not ever even turn it 2x around, and if you do, there's clear marks under the turret that tell you that you're on the second rev...

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But if you're a person who constantly seeks the latest gizmo, then you could be disappointed with your choices today.</div></div>

The first electronic calculator I had was a Texas Instruments SR-10:

http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/texas_instruments_sr-10.html

Many others followed - including the HP15C emulator which runs on my HP iPAQ 111 today, although I mostly use an Excel spreadsheet running on the iPAQ for anything very complicated.

The first computer I programmed was an IBM 1620, in 1966. That was <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> primitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1620

The lesson I learned is to pick whatever of the current technology seems best, and learn to use it. Yeah, you'll have to replace it later. Things change. Get over it.
</div></div>

fwiw & imho,
As is typical Lindy offers superb advice...

My thoughts on the matter: Go with a known system and stop buying gun rags as well as limiting your time on the computer. Spend time on the range and money on ammunition. I don't buy anything that has not been on the market for sufficient time to sink, swim, or float.

For my personal usage that is an AIAW and Gen II equipped Schmidt Bender PMII LPs. The only new piece of gear I've bought as of late is a TAB Elite Sling and I do believe it represents a step forward in simplicity from what I was previously using... That said I may be in the minority as my fellow Americans tend to rush to anything that is NEW.

If you are swayed by internet hype you may be in for a very rough ride...

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270

Btw, failed to note that I bought two "new" rifles in the last month. Both Pre-64 Model 70s made between 1949 and 1953...(grin)

 

[Ramius]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

I don't read gun rags anymore so some others can probably fill in the dates. I started with the current generation S&B SINGLE TURN Illuminated Ret scope in 1997. In fact when I bought it there were only 4 copies of the "new" 34mm tubes in the United States.

It is a boring scope. I mount it, zero it, shoot it. It works in all conditions, went through a ton of shit with me when I took it overseas in 2001. Whenever I do a box test it shoots true and tracks true despite looking like shit.

I bought several more single turn 3-12, double turn 3-12, and the current 5-25 DTs over the years. EVERY ONE OF THEM is the same (well, maybe one was a little flaky).

When I look for a new stick I always tell people I can afford the ammo and rifle but not the scope(!).

That single turn 34mm scope is sitting on a SIG and I just shot it last week. I think I'm going to have to take it into my grave with me.

Call me a dinosaur but all my scopes are mildot, nothing fancy thanks.

 

[Ramius]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

Oops, a little more:

Over the years I never "wanted to update my scopes." I just had to set up new rifles.

I went to the 5-25 DT because it was supposed to be the scope for 338LM.

One of these days I will pick up a 4-16 and see what the fuss is all about

Oh, FWIW I started on the Leupolds.

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

Rifles is cheap. Glass is expensive.

 

[Cartman]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifles is cheap. Glass is expensive.
</div></div>

You got that right.

I'm leaning towards S&B at this point but I'll be at the SHOT show in Vegas so if I haven't dived in by then I may get a good look at everything out there.

 

[azimutha]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

Although I rarely worry about it, battery life could still be an issue with those optics of the future that are supposed to do all the work for you. Learn how to use one of today's scopes so you have some features to fall back on when the electronics crap out.

My life doesn't depend on it and probably never will so I didn't worry about buying a Premier just because their models are new and haven't been around for 10 years. The company has been around for 60 or so. S&B isn't perfect or why did its optics engineers all leave? I'd still take an S&B any day but am only pointing out that no company is the god of optics nor is it necessarily right to be afraid of being an early adopter.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: S&B (and others) Scope Evolution Over Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ............and have an indulgent wife and ability to get the toys that make such shooting possible. </div></div>
You are indeed a very blessed man!

As long as you like the setup and the glass is solid, get what you are most comfortable with. I remember when the FFP Leupold conversions with GenII mildots by Premier were the schnizzle.
No guarantees that there won't be the next better mousetrap in a few years though.