Rifle Scopes S&B H2CMR vs. MSR question?

[vonbalkenbush]

So I've got a 5-25x56 PM II on order that is due for delivery sometime around the end of September/early October. I ordered with the MSR as that's what I'm currently running in my Kahles. However, the majority of the guys that run S&B's at the club where I shoot now are running the H2CMR because of the 0.2 mil wind holds on the horizontal stadia which I really, really like. My question is do you guys think the .035 mil hairline thickness of the H2CMR is too thin for positional shooting around 10x? I like to shoot most of my unsupported positions (offhand, kneeling, sitting etc...) between 8x-12x depending on the COF requirements for each particular stage and I feel that's where the extra hairline thickness of the MSR really shines. It's thickness is .05 mils.

So for those that have shot both reticles or just the H2CMR do you guys feel it's too thin between 8x-12x to be usable? I had a Premier 5-25 with Gen II XR that was a joke below 15x-16x, totally unusable. I don't want to have my order switched over to the H2CMR if I'm going to run into the same problem I had with the Premier. So what say you guys?


-VB

 

[jbell]

No I honestly don't think so. The loss in stability in the less supported positions will be the biggest reducer in your hit %. I can use the .2 holds down to around 5 or 6 power depending on the background. The reticle is plenty useable all the way down for center holds.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

No I honestly don't think so. The loss in stability in the less supported positions will be the biggest reducer in your hit %. I can use the .2 holds down to around 5 or 6 power depending on the background. The reticle is plenty useable all the way down for center holds.

Thanks J. Any body else wanna chime in on this? Would really appreciate it.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

I own the H2CMR and I've shot/used the MSR. This is strictly my opinion, but the H2CMR reticle is the best reticle available right now for the type of PRS/Steel shooting that alot of us do. There is a reason that so many shooters have this reticle. I know that the MSR has or had all the ultra cool market hype and many people jumped on it, but I just didn't care for it over the H2CMR. I love the .2mil wind holds. I can honestly say that this feature alone has helped improve my shooting in matches. I rarely dial my scope down below 12X power, so I can not give a honest account of how useable the reticle is on a lower power like 5x-8x.

I've never been one of those guys that claim a reticle is too "busy". That's just a mental thing. The more useable data I can get right in front of my eye, the better in my opinion. I do miss the Christmas tree that the vortex EBR-2B had. That reticle with .2mil hash marks would be the perfect reticle for me.

 

[JC Steel]

h2cmr is the way to go. Much more usable because of the .2 mil holds! in my opinion

 

[peaceatwar]

h2cmr is the way to go. Much more usable because of the .2 mil holds! in my opinion

That and the .04 line thickness. Its only a half hair thicker than a P4F, a reticle t hat I love.

 

[pmclaine]

Here is a P4F vs H2CMR thread that may help you with further nuggets of wisdom. The second poster seems especially intelligent and is probably extremely handsome.....

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../261955-s-b-reticle-choice-p4-fine-h2cmr.html

 

[vonbalkenbush]

That and the .04 line thickness. Its only a half hair thicker than a P4F, a reticle t hat I love.

Can someone else confirm that the hairline thickness on the H2CMR is .04 mils in the 5-25 models? I thought it was .035 mils, same as P4F? If that is the case then I am sold as my brain is already adjusted to that thickness. The MSR-K in my Kahles k624i is .04 mils exactly.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

It is .04

Here is link with a pic.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/174970-favorite-reticle-why.html

 

[vonbalkenbush]

It is .04

Here is link with a pic.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/174970-favorite-reticle-why.html

Wow, thank you Trevor. Guess that answers that. Looks like I'll be giving Reed a call tomorrow to have him switch the order over to the H2CMR. Just hope it's early enough to avoid getting up-charged for a reticle changeover? Guess we'll find out...

 

[JL]

It is .04

Here is link with a pic.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/174970-favorite-reticle-why.html

According to S&B USA, 0.035mrad as P4L Fine:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-new-schmidt-bender-reticles.html#post1198429

Though official datasheet does not mention it:
http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/d...ory/4-reticles.html?download=40:reticle-h2cmr

 

[Trevor300wsm]

If the reticles have been changed recently, then I could be wrong. My last one was purchased new in Feb 2014 and the data sheet I got with it listed it as .04m. However, it may have been old stock.

 

[JL]

If the reticles have been changed recently, then I could be wrong. My last one was purchased new in Feb 2014 and the data sheet I got with it listed it as .04m. However, it may have been old stock.

Without actually knowing it, it would make sense to me that different scope models have different line weights. I.e. 5-25=0.035, 3-20=0.04 etc.
MSR thickness too is balanced depending on magnification range- otherwise reticle can not feel/look same.

I know that the MSR has or had all the ultra cool market hype and many people jumped on it

Please elaborate- Hype where?
We as reticle designers have not spent one dime on MSR marketing OR offered sponsor money and/or scopes to any shooter, organization, etc using it. Still, lots of top shooters use it 100% voluntarily.
I find it very hard to believe that experienced shooters- including professionals and private end users- around world would fall in *any* reticle just because of hype.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I'm not a fan of the MSR. The H2CMR is where it's at.

 

[Lowlight]

I have both and prefer the MSR... I like a cleaner look, and don't need my hand held to the degree most reticles go.

As far as the H2CMR, I think the uneven nature of the .2 marks makes it unnatural. Look at how Steiner changed it to be more useable with the new scope. The SCR is very similar but fixes the stagger effect of the H2CMR. It flows and is more logical with the Steiner version.

I've always been a fan of simpler and feel the MSR is the better reticle out there. In fact I would even want a modified version that removed the 1/2 of their ranging marks. I would reduce the L to no more than 3 mils total in both directions and then get rid of the Dutch/European ranging stadia, for me, you don't need both. It's why I like the new NF, it's taken this path with ease.

Reticles are entirely a personal preference, so it's easy for every other shooter to prefer the opposite of the guy in front of them. I want simple and logical, I think the H2CMR does not accomplish this.

 

[Jaeger308]

Aside from ELR where I use the P4F, I prefer the MSR. The center cross being 1 mil total and .5 mil from center to end of line works just fine, here I do not need 0.2 marks for hold offs. Yes it is a bit thicker but IMO cleaner than having marks in the center area. I am with LL take away the stadia ranging in the civilian market, but that is probably more manufacturing and marketing cost factor in not doing so.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

I have both and prefer the MSR... I like a cleaner look, and don't need my hand held to the degree most reticles go.

As far as the H2CMR, I think the uneven nature of the .2 marks makes it unnatural. Look at how Steiner changed it to be more useable with the new scope. The SCR is very similar but fixes the stagger effect of the H2CMR. It flows and is more logical with the Steiner version.

I've always been a fan of simpler and feel the MSR is the better reticle out there. In fact I would even want a modified version that removed the 1/2 of their ranging marks. I would reduce the L to no more than 3 mils total in both directions and then get rid of the Dutch/European ranging stadia, for me, you don't need both. It's why I like the new NF, it's taken this path with ease.

Reticles are entirely a personal preference, so it's easy for every other shooter to prefer the opposite of the guy in front of them. I want simple and logical, I think the H2CMR does not accomplish this.

I tend to agree with Frank on the "unnatural" appearance of the H2CMR. However, I have shot the MSR for a while and want to see if the 0.2's wind holds on the H2CMR really improve the precision of my wind holds. So I had my order changed over this morning. If I don't end up liking it I can always have S&B switch it back over to the MSR for $350. It's always nice to know that option is there.

-VB

 

[Shoottothrill]

I really like my MSR, but have never used the other. I think that if you put enough rounds downrange with either reticle then you will learn to use it well and make good corrections and holds with it. It's really all about practice and learning a reticle.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

I really like my MSR, but have never used the other. I think that if you put enough rounds downrange with either reticle then you will learn to use it well and make good corrections and holds with it. It's really all about practice and learning a reticle.

Though I agree with this, the problem becomes apparent when you are shooting at larger plates or in my case a paper, man-sized silhouette. With a 0.5 mil hash it's too much or too little. And using the edge of target as a reference is also too gross of a measurement to get the shots in 9,10 or X ring. I used to not care when shooting steel matches if my hits were center of the plate or not, a hit is a right? But the minute you start giving people extra points for getting closer to the center of the target more precision than 0.5 mil is needed. There's the option of dialing, but I don't like to do that. So here we are with an H2CMR in route instead of another MSR.

-VB

 

[Jerry R]

Can someone else confirm that the hairline thickness on the H2CMR is .04 mils in the 5-25 models? I thought it was .035 mils, same as P4F?

Subtension of the H2CMR in the 5-25 is .035 MRAD. The 3-20 is .04 MRAD.

 

[taliv]

there are some things i would like to change about the MSR, but so far it's the closest to ideal reticle I've found. The H2CMR isn't even in the ballpark. dots and hashes don't mix, and i hate reticles that aren't labeled/numbered.

the MSR is very clean, especially in the center. there is a gap in the reticle from .4 to .6 mils from center which is my favorite part of the reticle. unobstructed view of the target and easy to hold .2 .4 .5. 6. 8 with it.
the measuring reticle at the lower left is also something i used regularly because it's very thin, it's much better for measuring than a regular FFP reticle.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Subtension of the H2CMR in the 5-25 is .035 MRAD. The 3-20 is .04 MRAD.

Thanks Jerry, was actually going to PM you when I got around to it. Thanks for chiming in.