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Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

B

bodywerks

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 19, 2010
1,683
67
49
Tucson,Arizona
#1
I invite anyone in Tucson that is familiar with this rifle to show me that it is just me! Because I would much rather know that I just need more practice with a higher recoil rifle. This is a serious offer...
I am an honest MOA shooter with my factory-barrelled savage fcp-k in 308 on an average day, and have shot a few 1/2 MOA groups with it and one sub-1/4moa group with it with my own handloads on good days. But yes, I am still, for all intents and purposes a novice shooter, so maybe its just me. But after about 200 rounds of various loads using retumbo and us869 powder, hornady and lapua brass, Berger and sierra 300gr bullets, and cci and Remington magnum primers - all in various different combinations and charge weights, I'm starting to think there's something going on with the rifle.
To date, the best group measured about 1.5", but average groups are between 2 and 3 inches using retumbo. US869 has been even worse, averaging 4 inches!!!
So what do you think? Do I write this rifle off as a scatter gun, or do I need to spend more money on more different powders and bullets? I already know that this particular rifle prefers the heavier bullets and I bought this rifle to tease the mile mark so lighter bullets wouldn't work for me anyway - neither would a powder that can't keep muzzle velocity up. But at this point I am willing to try anything that others have proven in this rifle.
 
#3
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Have you priced 338lm factory match ammo lately? Not to mention it seems hard to come by. But if there is anyone out there that owns this rifle and has shot sub-moa groups fairly consistently with a certain factory match ammo then I'd be willing to try a box.
Something else worth mentioning is this is an accustocked rifle, but i have removed the accuwedge and did a traditional bedding job on the action. I can assure you that this is not contributing to my accuracy woes because I shot the first 50-60 rounds as a stock rifle and had the same crappy groups.
 
#4
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Well, one box of 338LM ammo would tell you if it was the rifle (assuming your are shooting up to par).

I know that if I had a rifle that was burning up that kind of money, even if it was handloaded, I'd check it against a known good load. Ie some BH or factory loaded Lapua. Hell, the SW Ammo guys are selling the stuff for 78/box here. A box of 20 to narrow it down seems cheaper than a couple hundred handloads.

Looks like I'll be out in your neck of the woods next weekend. I'll throw one of mine in a case with some factory loads and we can see what is going on. I'll know more tomorrow about my schedule next week.

Otherwise there are a bunch of great shooters in the Pheonix area. One of them might be able to lend a hand.
 
#5
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Let me know. I work nights so I'm free any morning. I am honestly hoping its just me and not the rifle. It'd be ideal for me to just trade guns for a few groups with someone that has a proven sub-moa 338lm rifle. If theylre getting tight groups with it right before I shoot it and my grouping sucks then we know I need some work, lol!
 
#7
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

I remember seeing a write up on this particular rifle in one of the NRA magazines, the group size didn't impress me. I don't think any of them were sub MOA and most were closer to 2MOA. There are a few guys on here who have them however. I'm sure they could chime in.
 
#8
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: animalmother85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember seeing a write up on this particular rifle in one of the NRA magazines, the group size didn't impress me. I don't think any of them were sub MOA and most were closer to 2MOA. There are a few guys on here who have them however. I'm sure they could chime in. </div></div>
Are you talking about where he says he shot a 1.29" group but the average was something more like 2.8" for multiple groups? Did you miss the part where he said those groups were at 300 yards? That's sub-moa, not 2-3 MOA.
And he said he witnessed the team guys getting half-moa or better at 1000 yards.
 
#9
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

What optic do you have mounted to it? Try mounting your current optic to another rifle you know is a good shooter and see what happens. Almost sounds like the recoil messed up your scope. Also try different grain weight bullets. Some savage barrels are very picky and only like certain bullets.

Good Luck,
Merritt
 
#10
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

It was a nightforce for the first 150 rounds and I used that same scope on the 308 that I shoot 1moa or better with. I have since downsized to a Weaver tactical ffp and I still shoot MOA or better with it on my 308.
Also, I am familiar with the problems with the factory scope rail not fitting very well or with the hardware coming loose. That's not my problem because I am not using the factory rail. Its an egw base and I regularly verify that the screws are tight.
As for the bullet weights, its been pretty much a general concensus that the 110ba likes the heavier bullets. I have looked at some 285gr solids that are turned on a lathe that still have the BC to get me to a mile but they're like $1.20 apiece. Bullets such as the sierra, lapua, or hornady 250 trainers don't have what it takes to reach out past 1500 so they're not an option. Sure I could try them, but if this rifle wont launch the heavier bullets like its supposed to then its a defective gun as far as I'm concerned.
 
#11
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Pick one case, one primer, one powder, and one bullet and do some load development. This should give you some idea of the rifle's potential when a better load vs a less perfect load is involved. Jumping all over the landscape with different components only complicates and confuses issues, and doesn't do the bore life any good, either.

While I'm not especially familiar with the bigger bores and cases, my guess would be that the .338LM is probably not at its best in close around 100yd. Sometimes I find that accuracy questions which render vague answers shooting at 100yd tend to give more convincing results out around 200-300yd. If possible, I'd shoot comparisons with my loads at 100yd, and also at a significantly greater distance.

Greg
 
#12
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

The two Savage 110BAs the factory sent me direct for a magazine article averaged 2+ MOA groups. The best was about 1.25.

I REALLY wanted this weapon to group well as it's at the most attractive price for all the features it comes bundled with. I was sadly disappointed.

I shot factory Hornady 250s and 285s and Black Hills 250s.

Handloads were 250 Match Kings and Scenars, and 300 Match Kings and Scenars over Reloader 25 and Retumbo.

Scope was a proven Nightforce NSX 5.5-22x50. All groups were ten-shot groups, fired off bags, bipod, or Bald Eagle benchrest. I shot from 50 to 1,000 yards.

Besides mediocre accuracy the chamber was so tight I could not shoot ammo that wasn't factory or built from virgin brass. Extraction was a pain since well over half the shots required me to push empties out using a Dewey rod.

I'd cut my losses.
 
#13
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Just got done shooting 3-round groups of different loads yesterday, mostly to see how far up the chart I could get before experiencing pressure so I went in 1/2 grain increments starting at 91.5 and ending in 94 grains(max chart for Retumbo). Brass was factory new Lapua, primers were remington 9-1/2 magnums and bullets were 300SMK, all loaded to about 10-15 thou off the lands. They all shot almost identically bad, with no discernible change in elevation as the charge increased. I have also shot groups from 88 to 91 grains with similar results.
You are right. As the distance increases the accuracy seems better, and I have absolutely zero intention of shooting this rifle at anything less than about 500 yards once I get a load worked up. But there are serveral 110BA owners reporting consistent sub-moa at 100 yards so I see no reason why my rifle shouldn't.
My 308 will shoot just about any factory match ammo equally well. I can't imagine that the 338 LM is so finicky that not a single one of the loads I put together would make anything resembling a group.
 
#14
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

BodyWerks,

I am NOT sure where you got the info that Sierra 250 grn MK's will NOT reach to 1500...

They will and DO 1500 and beyond...

I agree with others here... I would check EVERYTHING on the rifle... then i would DOUBL and TRIPLE check the loads your making.

I have a FACTORY Remington MLR .338 Lapua in a XLR Chasis... It will holder HALF MOA or UNDER as long as I do my part.

I have a .338 LM load that at 100 yards has printed WELL UNDER 1/2 MOA consistantly.

There is also ALWAYS the possibility that something could be up with the barreled action.... but i doubt it...

Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.)
 
#15
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Well my Savage BA110 338 is the first gun I have ever owned, just got it before Christmas and haven't been shooting much in over 15 years. Out of the box with 250 Hornady TAP it shot sub MOA off a BI pod and no rear bag in -25 temp ( yes I was just excited to shoot the gun for the first time). Then with 300 grain SMK hand loads I just shot 2, 4 shot groups under 1.6" at 330 yards in -15 temp off a front bag. Love this gun no issues what's so ever no bedding no trigger adjusting just put my Sightron scope on and bases and started shooting. Ron
 
#16
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

You don't think the lapua and 250gr can get to a mile? My buddy gets his .338 RUM and .250gr Match Kings well passed a mile. Heck people are getting standard short action rounds to a mile. If you aren't trying to kill anything just about any cartridge can be pushed to a mile with some precsion if the rifle and shooter are up to the task. If you need energy at that range then yes thats a different ball game.

My advice is do some load developement at 200 or 300 yards. Try some 250gr loads. and get someone to watch if you developed a flinch. Iam not calling you a sissy. I got a flinch from shooting a 6lb 300 win mag with 190gr bullets and a hockey puck recoil pad. I swore up and down that I didn't have one till I had someone else load up my rifle and caught myslef closing my eyes when the gun didn't go boom when I pulled the trigger.

If you still have crappy accuracy it could be the rifle as a factory rifle is always a gamble even if it is a Savage. Hope you get it figured out.
 
#17
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

That's really weird, I have 200 rounds through mine and even including some wildly jerked flyers it's never been worse than around 1.25 MOA, and once I got myself under control has done consistently better than 1 MOA, and usually 0.5 or better with factory 250 or 300gr ammo.
Bodyworks, you may want to try lower loads, I found the accuracy node for 300SMK/retumbo to be around 90gr, and started having bolt lift issues at 92. At 89-91gr or with factory I've had ZERO issues with it, and both myself and others shooting it have shot many 0.3-0.5 MOA groups at 100, and well under 1 at 400+. The only thing I noticed when all of a sudden the groups got around 1 MOA was the scope rail had loosened, so I'd check that.

As for tight chambers, mine measures 2.195" using Sinclair gauge on once fired brass, the "go" gauge measures 2.195 and easily chambers, while the 2.200" no-go doesn't at all. In other words, it's built right around SAAMI minimum, which might explain a tight chamber for factory loads. Try a full length resize (mine chambers easily with f/l sized brass with either a 0.000" or 0.002" redding shell holder, die adjusted to contact). That being said, yours might be off-spec, if all the screws are tight and it still won't chamber or shoot accurately, I'd call savage ASAP, as it seems anomalous.

As for articles with bigger groups, IIRC, those were 250gr factory rounds, and the 110's twist REALLY prefers the 300's--ive shot them back to back and the difference is significant, even at 100yd
 
#18
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Also, my loads were 0.020" off the lands, I'm gonna try some at 0.030 and 0.010" hopefully this weekend...maybe it doesn't like being that close?

Did you size the virgin brass or just neck size? I've noticed some of my virgin lapua brass is a bit on the bigger side, especially given the near-minimum size chamber.
 
#20
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

I took some fired cases and measured them before and after sizing with steadily smaller shell holder offsets (0.010, 0.008, 0.006, 0.004, 0.002, 0.000) until it made a difference, which was at 0.000, which resulted in a measurement of 2.193". Since the fired case was 2.195" and that stayed the same after using the 0.002 s/h, I now just run them all through that one. I am going to select a case or two and NOT do that operation and fire it several times to see what the growth rate is, and when it stops easily chambering, then do the same process to find the one 0.002" less than that length, however, as the difference in headspace between go and no-go is no greater than 0.005, and thus the chamber is somewhere in that range. So let's say the actual headspace is 2.199, bumping back 0.002" would mean I use the 0.004 s/h, but if it's 2.195-2.198, i would have been correct to use my 0.002 s/h as that would ensure that it will always chamber, with 0.000-0.003" clearance. At this point I'm comfortable using the 0.002 on my hornady brass. The lapua once-fired I'm loading now I'm just going to neck size, then measure, and pick the largest--if that still chambers, then I'm NOT going to f/l those, and perform the above test on a few test rounds to see if I can eventually lengthen them to the max chamber (and thus get the data I need).
I hope that makes sense, it's been a long day.

Simple answer, yes and no, but once I get the data, I'll only f/l to result in a 0.001-0.003 bump back to ensure easy chambering without excessive headspace--given that the go/no-go are 0.005 apart, I figure 0.001-0.003 less than max is well thin the safe range (even though it is theoretically "excess" headspace)
 
#21
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Regarding lower weight bullets reaching a mile - I was just going off ballistics and the point at which the bullet becomes transonic. At my altitude, even the smks at 2600fps(about as fast as I have gotten them) show going transonic right at a mile.the effective barrel length is shorter than most 338LP guns, at about 26", so getting anything over 2700 out of 300 grains is a little tough.
To be honest, I haven't looked into lighter bullets because nearly all the reports on this rifle say it very much prefers the 300g bullets. The rifling is faster than most, being a 1:9 twist. Nearly every report is that the groups open up noticeably with the 250gr bullets.
 
#22
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with others here... I would check EVERYTHING on the rifle... then i would DOUBL and TRIPLE check the loads your making.</div></div>
I understand where you're coming from, but understand that I'm not a gunsmith and don't have, nor do I intend to buy, a bunch of equipment to check anything more that the cleanliness of the barrel and the tightness of bolts, etc. If it gets to the point that I have to check whether or not the headspace is correct or the chamber is properly cut, etc., the rifle is going back to Savage. But what I can check is good. Action and scope base screws are tight, the barrel's tight, and if headspace was off I'd have fired brass that would change shape quite a bit, no? currently, the only things that change measurably is the diameter of the neck increases by about .006" from a piece of virgin brass, and the body diameter, just prior to where it tapers down to the neck, increases by about .004-.005". Everything else is within .001" of each other.
AS for my loads, while I am a novice, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong that would cause problems this big. I've loaded factory brass, once-fired brass that was neck-sized only, once-fired that was body and neck sized, two different cans/lots of Retumbo, different bullet seating depths, different primers, etc.
As for my equipment, my press isn't the best - it's just a Lee. But I am using Redding Type S competition dies and bullet seater, and I have a chargemaster 1500 that throws the charge automatically, and I back that up with another chargmaster digital scale.
Once loaded the rounds are concentric.
 
#24
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Hmm. Based on everything you said, I would suggest getting a go/no-go gauge set, and if you don't have one already, a case comparator body and insert. It's entirely possible. I would check the headspace with the go/no-go, to see if it was put together correctly--if not, it's an easy fix. Then check the length of the virgin and fired brass compared to the go/no-go and size accordingly. I have the same dies as you, so you should be able to tweak the rounds to fit properly.

Also, try a lighter load, like I said, I found really good groups at 90gr, as have others. And I notice major bolt lift issues at 92+
if the rifle doesn't have it's headspace adjusted correctly, that could result in all of the problems you are encountering, and the tools I mentioned total <$100... if it is headspace, a quick trip to a smith to adjust it (unless you have the wrench and wherewithal) and you should be right as rain.
 
#26
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

NoVa, I have loaded as low as 86 grains of retumbo. And I have tried a variety of seating depths to no avail.

Bottom line is that I need someone else with a .338LM rifle(preferably another 110BA) that can consistently shoot MOA or better at 100 to show me such groups with their gun and then go over and try my gun. That will do a pretty good job of ruling me out of the equation.
 
#27
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Whats it hurt to try some 250gr? I have a savage .223 with a 1-9 twist for 70-75gr bullets and I couldn't get a load with anything. Almost everybody can get 70gr berger or 75gr a-max, varget and cci 450 to shoot sub MOA out of these rifles. I couldn't come close. not even 55gr or 60gr would group I loaded up some 40gr and what do you know 1/2" groups with some smaller. Iam only trying to make the point of that it's a factory barrel and just becasue the majority of guys are getting the 300gr to work better doesn't guarantee it in your gun. There is always some that don't conform to the "norm" (like my .223) I just don't want you to send the gun back and savage shoots a group with factory 250gr and it goes sub MOA. Might as well rule it out.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding lower weight bullets reaching a mile - I was just going off ballistics and the point at which the bullet becomes transonic. At my altitude, even the smks at 2600fps(about as fast as I have gotten them) show going transonic right at a mile.the effective barrel length is shorter than most 338LP guns, at about 26", so getting anything over 2700 out of 300 grains is a little tough.
To be honest, I haven't looked into lighter bullets because nearly all the reports on this rifle say it very much prefers the 300g bullets. The rifling is faster than most, being a 1:9 twist. Nearly every report is that the groups open up noticeably with the 250gr bullets. </div></div>
 
#28
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Ah. Normally I'm down in tuscon once or twice a year for work (rtn), if it's anytime soon, I'll ups you some ammo, and bring my rifle.

But seriously, did you check headspace? The gauges are cheap, and it could be a quick fix, if you have, then I don't have anything left.

If it is the case you have a bum rifle, I would call savage and get it fixed..it is their new baby, and quite popular, and I assume they would rather do everything possible to make it right to avoid this kind of negative press.

Regardless of outcome, next time I'm down there I'll bring mine, and we can at least go shooting!

Hope it works out,
-marc
 
#29
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoVa birdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, as I've said, theblapua factory 300gr works great in mine. Try powdervalleyinc.com, I believe they have some in stock. I have shot 0.5 MOA at 100yd with that, and so have some SF guys with my rifle. </div></div>
They only list the 250 scenar ammo. Have you got it from them before? I am not finding anyone that has the 300 scenar ammo in stock.
 
#32
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

hey, im up in phoenix, I have the same rifle, Im still trying to work out a load but the few ive tried worked out pretty well , I was sub moa at 200 yards, I need to find a longer range to go to though ben avery only goes to 200 yards and you have to be a member of some club to get onto the 1000 yard range though. I loaded some rounds tonight to try out wed. but if you want to meet up some time give me a holler. The first time I shot the rifle I was using some of southwest ammo rounds to zero in the rifle. then loaded some at 84.0 gr with 300 smk and got sub moa at 200 yards, I also taped a quarter on to my target at 100 yards and hit it on my second shot, sounds like somethings up with your particular gun. Anyways hit me up if you want to get together sometime and do some comparisons.
 
#33
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

As an additional comment on 250s beyond 1500... There are folks on here who did a fairly extensive writeup,( Finnish, Dutch, Swedes, I can't exactly remember), that have shot the 250's successfully to over 2400yds.
 
#34
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Thanks cad. I am pulling a 25 day stretch at work right now so I wont have time to get open to phx for a bit but ill keep that idea in mind.
maverick, my choice to not to use lighter bullets came from a general consensus that most 250g bullets are not as accurate through this 1:9 barrel.
 
#37
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Bodywerks, I'm trying to setup an excuse, err....meeting down at our facility in tuscon in the next month or so, you guys have a 1000yd range down there right? If so, I'll pack the 110 with me when I go and plan on a weekend
 
#38
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Yes we do but it has to be reserved and can only be reserved if its not already being used for a match. Ill see what I can do about that. Otherwise, worse case we have a 550 range or there's always the open desert...
 
#39
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Gents, if you can drive/fly up to Salt Lake City I have a couple of places we can shoot GI E-type steel silhouettes out to 2,000+ yards.

I'd like to see the 110s shine and can provide a place for you to stretch their legs. If they don't, well that's fair, too -- you should know what you got.
 
#40
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

That may be an option for the spring season
laugh.gif
 
#44
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

It's my personal opinion that if you're going to attempt to shoot a mile with the 338 LM, you're better off buying a rifle from a custom builder with an accuracy guarantee.

While my MLR was an exception with it's terrible accuracy, you have to get extreme accuracy to shoot that far with any amount of success. While it may be possible that a few of these Remington and Savage rifles get 1/2 MOA, I'd say that is probably an exception as well.

I was planning on dropping my MLR into a manners or AICS chassis and doing some other minor work on it. In the end, the UGSW infidel that I ordered was only about 1400 bucks more. For what I'm getting, I presume that this will be extremely worth it.

If you're planning on shooting extreme distances, do yourself a favor and get a rifle custom built.

The above post is my opinion only.
 
#45
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Bodywerks,
Not to insult you, but did you install your rings, mount, and base using a torque wrench? The reason I ask, many people don't take the time or effort do use a torque wrench, and in many cases it may not make a difference with a low recoil round, but with the 338LM, it can. Also over-tight screws can cause some of the same issues.

Good luck...
 
#47
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

Hi there people. Im Aussie, in the Military and hey I love guns!

I have recently got this exact rifle in 338 and I Fkng Love it!
I can only achieve a 78mm ES at 1000m at present with Accubond 225 Grain but I have plenty left in the tank and in my defence and the rifles, we have only enjoyed 150 Rds so far.

Have a few other Rifles and toys but this is my Favorite!

One thing I want to ask anyone, please help me on this.
WHERE DO I GET A DRAG BAG TO SUIT THIS LONG BASTARD!!!???

Cheers boys.
 
#48
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

I just got one about a month ago and mine is shooting the sierra 300 smk with the groups measuring .278 I just started with the Sierra reloading manuals "Accurate Load" and it came right in with the first group.

I could'nt be happier its never been this easy to get a new gun dialed in.
 
#50
Re: Savage 110BA 338 Lapua = 2 MOA rifle???

We are going through similar issues at the moment with a 700p 338 lapua.

We will try all weights and styles of bullets before trying too many more powder charges. We have done about 10 different loads with the 225 SST and nothing better than an inch and a half.

If we cant find a powder charge of 2217 that shoots the 250 or 300 berger or sierra's, then we will worry and maybe get a trueflite barrel on it.

Until then, I think you should take the same approach. Some bullets simply do not work in some barrels, just move on. It's seriously not a big deal if you cant get SMK's to shoot well, try berger hybrids, try 250's, try barnes.

Chris
 
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