SAVAGE MSR-10 LR .308 with DRACOS .260 rebarrel

[Red Dog 17]

Greetings,

A question for the experts here on SH...

BTW, new member, any SOP infractions not intentional...

I have rebarreled my Savage MSR-10LR with a 22” Dracos barrel in .260R.

UNSUPPRESSED:
Using handloads of 41.0g of H4350, 139 Lapua Scenars, and resized .308 once fired mil spec brass, the rifle is undergassed and does not cycle properly. It will not pick up a second round from the magazine, nor lock the bolt to the rear after a single shot.

SUPPRESSED with AAC SDN-6
Rifle cycles perfectly, but is prone to vertical stringing. I have used this suppressor on my bolt gun, (SIG SSG-3000 with 22” Benchmade .260R rebarrel) with similar accuracy issues.
Removal of the suppressor eliminated flyers for my SIG.

Desired endstate:
Shoot the MSR-10 unsuppressed with normal cycling in order to move to accuracy testing. Eventually move to a suppressor more suited to PRS shooting.

Limiting factors:
The Dracos barrel dwell time adjustment made no impact on cycling in any depth of inset screw setting.

There is no adjusting the Savage MSR-10 BCG gas key due to its design, which is devoid of an adjustment screw.

Work around questions:

Does anyone here have any gouge on an adjustable gas block solution for the Dracos barrel? As of mid Feb, the company recommends using the BCG gas key for adjustments.

Does anyone here know if there is a BCG that has an adjustable gas key that will fit and function in the MSR-10 platform?

Also a larger charging handle would be nice too.

Grateful for any input!

 

[knuckleballz]

Rubber city armory adjustable gas key will work.

 

[knuckleballz]

Subwrx300 has done extensive work with the dracos barrels on his savage msr10. Search for his posts and threads on here. I would post links but I haven't taken the time to figure that out yet

 

[Red Dog 17]

Roger that. I have also seen his excellent threads and hoping he might chime in. I like the rifle, but the proprietary piece is a challenge. I knew this up front and decided to march on anyway.

Really like the concept of the Dracos barrel if I can resolve the cycling issues.

Thanks for the input KB!

 

[Red Dog 17]

Update: Thanks to KB’s rec, I called Rubber City Armory. I spoke with Jeff, who was super helpful and took time out of his day to review the issue.

We discussed the challenges of standardizarion on AR-10 platforms, of which you guys are well aware.

Long story short, I am going to have to try and rectify the issue using other means.

Next plan is to determine stock buffer and spring numbers for the MSR-10, and roll in a JP Silent Capture setup and reduce the resistance the bolt is up against when firing unsuppressed.

On the road now, more to follow...

 

[AMGtuned]

Is the Dracos new? I thought the gas block was changing. Maybe it still is limited in its adjustment. I run Teludyne StraightJacket barrels (the creator of Dracos design), and they have adjustable blocks. Have not used enough Dracos, especially suppressed, to make judgment here. I do know that over gassing, and/or too heavy buffer spring, can mimic undergassing. Adjustable gas key, I know, is a common fix. Agreed that @Subwrx300 has probably put the most trigger time in tuning his system, and I'm pretty sure he likes it (?) . His posts have been very technical, in depth, and informative. The concept is a wonderful adaptation to our needs as shooters; however, so as not to step on toes, or be "that guy", I will not go into the reasons I believe the 2 systems are different, whilst being the same. When in doubt, the guys at Falkor are great for CS, if you're having unresolved issues, give them a shout. Might be worth your while. Good luck

 

[Red Dog 17]

Is the Dracos new? I thought the gas block was changing. Maybe it still is limited in its adjustment. I run Teludyne StraightJacket barrels (the creator of Dracos design), and they have adjustable blocks. Have not used enough Dracos, especially suppressed, to make judgment here. I do know that over gassing, and/or too heavy buffer spring, can mimic undergassing. Adjustable gas key, I know, is a common fix. Agreed that @Subwrx300 has probably put the most trigger time in tuning his system, and I'm pretty sure he likes it (?) . His posts have been very technical, in depth, and informative. The concept is a wonderful adaptation to our needs as shooters; however, so as not to step on toes, or be "that guy", I will not go into the reasons I believe the 2 systems are different, whilst being the same. When in doubt, the guys at Falkor are great for CS, if you're having unresolved issues, give them a shout. Might be worth your while. Good luck

 

[Red Dog 17]

AMG,

I bought the barrel just prior to SHOT, and received it shortly thereafter. I have talked with CS at Dracos and they have been excellent. I am just in a gray area
due to the MSR design, having a proprietary BCG, and that limits what might otherwise be simple adjustment.

I was aware of the potential for compatibility issues on the front side, but I like the rifle, and feel that the Dracos barrel will be a good fit once cycling is tuned. Wondering about the gas numbers between .260 vs .308 given the difference in projectile weights and barrel length.

I ordered a JP Silent Capture system and the accessory spring pack. Hope to find a combination that will prove effective.

Really appreciate you weighing in. A definate testament to the reach of SH, and the cooperation of the members here.

The comments of under vs over gas is challenging the reaches of my understanding, and makes solving the
problem that much more interesting.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Subwrx300]

Update: Thanks to KB’s rec, I called Rubber City Armory. I spoke with Jeff, who was super helpful and took time out of his day to review the issue.

We discussed the challenges of standardizarion on AR-10 platforms, of which you guys are well aware.

Long story short, I am going to have to try and rectify the issue using other means.

Next plan is to determine stock buffer and spring numbers for the MSR-10, and roll in a JP Silent Capture setup and reduce the resistance the bolt is up against when firing unsuppressed.

On the road now, more to follow...

Hey Red Dog, (and @AMGtuned: thanks for the tag! )

How many rounds through your new barrel/rifle? Sounds like at least a good number prior to making the switch to 260R.

A few things come to mind regarding cycling issues.

1. I avoided the 260 Rem due possible feeding issues; the 6.5CM case was designed with mag length cycling/feeding in mind and gas operation seems to be overall more consistent with 6.5CM than 260 due to the oal and case shape.
2. Your 100% correct that overgassed rifles can mimic being undergassed. This was the issue in my rifle and switching to a heavier rear mass buffer should help. I went to a 5oz and it's still a bit overgassed with a suppressor.
3. The JP silent capture tuner kit should work BUT you will need to do one of the following: swap your rear buffer tube to a standard rifle length OR make a custom spacer for the carbine length tube that goes between the BCG and buffer face (the Savage BCG is shorter than standard AR10 BCG and could potentially allow the JPSCS op rod to hit the firing pin when it bottoms out.
4. The Dracos Dwell time adjust screw is about as useful as a glass hammer. It simply doesn't do what they expected it to do. I had conversations with Dracos/Falkor Defense about it and they stated they were working on an adjustable version of the block that limits flow but had no ETA.

For the purposes of tuning quickly, I'd suggest reducing load further (look for node between 39-40gr) and swap out to a Tubb Flatwire spring or something similar. There is a good chance that your loads will work better with a slightly softer, slower load. I also found that 140gr bullets had mediocre results in the Dracos whereas the 120-130 seemed to work much more consistently, along with reducing dwell time (faster muzzle exit means lower dwell time generally speaking).

The stock Savage spring is SUPER SUPER strong compared to most but that creates a two edged sword: you need a heck of load to get it to cycle BUT it will likely be overgassed to get it back far enough to pickup next round which can cause bolt to unlock early and lead to accuracy issues.

Feel free to send me a PM and I'd be happy to send my phone number to chat as needed about what I've tried and what worked for me. Sometimes easier to cover this stuff by phone than back and forth via messages.

FC

 

[Red Dog 17]

Hey Red Dog, (and @AMGtuned: thanks for the tag! )

How many rounds through your new barrel/rifle? Sounds like at least a good number prior to making the switch to 260R.

A few things come to mind regarding cycling issues.

1. I avoided the 260 Rem due possible feeding issues; the 6.5CM case was designed with mag length cycling/feeding in mind and gas operation seems to be overall more consistent with 6.5CM than 260 due to the oal and case shape.
2. Your 100% correct that overgassed rifles can mimic being undergassed. This was the issue in my rifle and switching to a heavier rear mass buffer should help. I went to a 5oz and it's still a bit overgassed with a suppressor.
3. The JP silent capture tuner kit should work BUT you will need to do one of the following: swap your rear buffer tube to a standard rifle length OR make a custom spacer for the carbine length tube that goes between the BCG and buffer face (the Savage BCG is shorter than standard AR10 BCG and could potentially allow the JPSCS op rod to hit the firing pin when it bottoms out.
4. The Dracos Dwell time adjust screw is about as useful as a glass hammer. It simply doesn't do what they expected it to do. I had conversations with Dracos/Falkor Defense about it and they stated they were working on an adjustable version of the block that limits flow but had no ETA.

For the purposes of tuning quickly, I'd suggest reducing load further (look for node between 39-40gr) and swap out to a Tubb Flatwire spring or something similar. There is a good chance that your loads will work better with a slightly softer, slower load. I also found that 140gr bullets had mediocre results in the Dracos whereas the 120-130 seemed to work much more consistently, along with reducing dwell time (faster muzzle exit means lower dwell time generally speaking).

The stock Savage spring is SUPER SUPER strong compared to most but that creates a two edged sword: you need a heck of load to get it to cycle BUT it will likely be overgassed to get it back far enough to pickup next round which can cause bolt to unlock early and lead to accuracy issues.

Feel free to send me a PM and I'd be happy to send my phone number to chat as needed about what I've tried and what worked for me. Sometimes easier to cover this stuff by phone than back and forth via messages.

FC

WRX,

Thank you for the reply, lots of possibilities and potential solutions to explore. I get home tomorrow night and have some time off for research. IM to follow...

 

[AMGtuned]

Hey Red Dog, (and @AMGtuned: thanks for the tag! )

How many rounds through your new barrel/rifle? Sounds like at least a good number prior to making the switch to 260R.

A few things come to mind regarding cycling issues.

1. I avoided the 260 Rem due possible feeding issues; the 6.5CM case was designed with mag length cycling/feeding in mind and gas operation seems to be overall more consistent with 6.5CM than 260 due to the oal and case shape.
2. Your 100% correct that overgassed rifles can mimic being undergassed. This was the issue in my rifle and switching to a heavier rear mass buffer should help. I went to a 5oz and it's still a bit overgassed with a suppressor.
3. The JP silent capture tuner kit should work BUT you will need to do one of the following: swap your rear buffer tube to a standard rifle length OR make a custom spacer for the carbine length tube that goes between the BCG and buffer face (the Savage BCG is shorter than standard AR10 BCG and could potentially allow the JPSCS op rod to hit the firing pin when it bottoms out.
4. The Dracos Dwell time adjust screw is about as useful as a glass hammer. It simply doesn't do what they expected it to do. I had conversations with Dracos/Falkor Defense about it and they stated they were working on an adjustable version of the block that limits flow but had no ETA.

For the purposes of tuning quickly, I'd suggest reducing load further (look for node between 39-40gr) and swap out to a Tubb Flatwire spring or something similar. There is a good chance that your loads will work better with a slightly softer, slower load. I also found that 140gr bullets had mediocre results in the Dracos whereas the 120-130 seemed to work much more consistently, along with reducing dwell time (faster muzzle exit means lower dwell time generally speaking).

The stock Savage spring is SUPER SUPER strong compared to most but that creates a two edged sword: you need a heck of load to get it to cycle BUT it will likely be overgassed to get it back far enough to pickup next round which can cause bolt to unlock early and lead to accuracy issues.

Feel free to send me a PM and I'd be happy to send my phone number to chat as needed about what I've tried and what worked for me. Sometimes easier to cover this stuff by phone than back and forth via messages.

FC

^this guy....... . Solid dude right there

 

[Red Dog 17]

^this guy....... . Solid dude right there

Indeed!

 

[Rifleman777]

Greetings,

A question for the experts here on SH...

BTW, new member, any SOP infractions not intentional...

I have rebarreled my Savage MSR-10LR with a 22” Dracos barrel in .260R.

UNSUPPRESSED:
Using handloads of 41.0g of H4350, 139 Lapua Scenars, and resized .308 once fired mil spec brass, the rifle is undergassed and does not cycle properly. It will not pick up a second round from the magazine, nor lock the bolt to the rear after a single shot.

SUPPRESSED with AAC SDN-6
Rifle cycles perfectly, but is prone to vertical stringing. I have used this suppressor on my bolt gun, (SIG SSG-3000 with 22” Benchmade .260R rebarrel) with similar accuracy issues.
Removal of the suppressor eliminated flyers for my SIG.

Desired endstate:
Shoot the MSR-10 unsuppressed with normal cycling in order to move to accuracy testing. Eventually move to a suppressor more suited to PRS shooting.

Limiting factors:
The Dracos barrel dwell time adjustment made no impact on cycling in any depth of inset screw setting.

There is no adjusting the Savage MSR-10 BCG gas key due to its design, which is devoid of an adjustment screw.

Work around questions:

Does anyone here have any gouge on an adjustable gas block solution for the Dracos barrel? As of mid Feb, the company recommends using the BCG gas key for adjustments.

Does anyone here know if there is a BCG that has an adjustable gas key that will fit and function in the MSR-10 platform?

Also a larger charging handle would be nice too.

Grateful for any input!





View attachment 7048895View attachment 7048896

I have a .308 MSR-10 Long Range that will not shoot. I believe the factory barrel is crap. Are there off the rack barrels to be had? I cannot find barrels for sale that state they will work on an MSR-10. Any direction will help.

 

[Bigjake83]

I have a .308 MSR-10 Long Range that will not shoot. I believe the factory barrel is crap. Are there off the rack barrels to be had? I cannot find barrels for sale that state they will work on an MSR-10. Any direction will help.

The MSR-10 is DPMS based, so any barrel that is DPMS Large Frame compatible will work.

 

[Rifleman777]

Bigjake83, Thanks for the answer. This is the first definitive answer I've seen in several days of searches. Several name AR barrel makers can't say for sure. I will say this about my specific MSR-10: Savage sold a lot of 'sizzle' and not much steak.

 

[Bigjake83]

Bigjake83, Thanks for the answer. This is the first definitive answer I've seen in several days of searches. Several name AR barrel makers can't say for sure. I will say this about my specific MSR-10: Savage sold a lot of 'sizzle' and not much steak.

Watch the YouTube videos on the MSR the guy that designed it states in the video that it's DPMS style.

4:28

New Savage Arms MSR 10 Long Range Rifle
YouTube

 

[GONE BAD]

I have the msr 10 lr in 308. Been thinking of getting a new barrel but the only thing is what length of gas tube I need. Savage says rifle +. I'm sure any dpms works but kinda want to use the factory GT and AGB.
Also I want the receiver and extension to fit tight.
Maybe a better option for me is to just buy an oversized extension and have it installed on my barrel?