Gunsmithing SB heavy 10 vs 13

[Rlbol]

This may not be the best place to post this however I believe we have more honest and trust worthy members on here then any forum!

So if you could get a like new heavy 10 with 4.5 bed hardened ways, D1-4 spindle with basically every attchment except milling attachment and tool post grinder. Would you take that over a similarly equipped but slightly older with a little wear model 13 tool room lathe with 6’ bed.

Which one would be preferred for smithing and general metal turning?

2) is there a different make and model that would be preferred over these in the 10k range with all the tooling?

 

[skinnj1]

Is the 13 a threaded spindle or Long nose or cam-loc? I prefer long nose or camloc spindles for some operations and much prefer the D series chucks to an LOO when it comes to buying a chuck. The longer bed would be handier but the thru spindle is about the same on most 13's as Heavy10's, assuming the Heavy 10 has the better condtion I would buy it and not look back, if the 13 had less wear that is the one I would be hauling home if I wanted another Southbend, there are several other brands I would look at in the used iron category.

 

[Waorani]

+2 for 10L. I'm still a novice but I wouldn't trade my 4.5' heavy 10 for a 13. Just finished installing a bigger 3ph converter so in the market for something bigger but it will be in addition, not a replacement.

 

[WVHick]

I have a Rockwell 11” lathe and I think it’s about the perfect lathe for having in the garage and being able to chamber on. It has a very short headstock, but still not short enough to chamber anything less that 20”, provided you will chamber through the headstock. I’d go Heavy 10 if I were you, as I assume it has a shorter head stock.

Did I say headstock enough? Head stock.

Mine is also 3 phase and I run it off a VFD. Inexpensive and easy.

If I had $10k to spend, I’d buy a new Precision Matthews 1440 GT over any old American lathe any day if I was just a hobbyist. American is all the rage but they’re usually worn out and command a premium. The Taiwan stuff I’ve seen in person, which granted is only two other lathes, are fantastic. It’s quite hard to beat new.

Take all this with a grain of salt. I’ve had my Rockwell for barely a year and only chambered 4 barrels; so I really have no clue what I’m talking about. These are just my thoughts.

 

[skinnj1]

@WVHick

Headstock length isn't the end all be all, Jackie S. Won plenty of hall of fame points chambering through headstock with a pratt and whitney that has a longer spindle than the barrel, like anything machining related there is more than one way to skin the cat and setup us everything

 

[Rlbol]

Both models have a d1-4 spindle
The 10 has a 4.5, bed the 13 has a 6 ft bed.
Both 3 phase

I plan on most work being thru the head stock unless the barrel diameter excedes the bore diameter.
Would like to change calibers on a ar50 so that may be a problem however it looks like either model will Handle a large tenion AI barrel.

 

[skinnj1]

@Rlbol

AI''s= metric threads so does either have a set of metric transposing gears? If not and you want to be 100% perfect on the gear train a heavy10 would be easier to find a metric gear set for allthough Boston Gear makes gears than can be modified for either and even cheaper, you can get by with a couple printed gears off of the Ebay guy to get you cutting metric.

If the overall condition is the same, I would go bigger machine, however, I was reading into your post the 13" wasn't in as nice a condition.

You will appreciate the longer bed if working between centers, especially the ELR size barrels.

If I had $10K to spend I would still beat the bush a little more looking for a decent 17x60 clausing clouchester or a mori-seiki lathe (or it's clone from Webb /Cadillac/ Hwaechon- not spelled right probably). These lathes are in a different category than a belt drive SB although the it's often the Indian not the arrow when it comes to the finished product. The lathes I am mentioning will have spindle bores large enough to do large tennon elr barrels through the headstock plus be more machine than "needed" for barrel fitting but you wont have to buy another manual lathe ever.

 

[cast1]

If the big bore stuff is your main focus then neither of these is ideal. If you have found a cream puff 10L, buy it. I have two and get are ideal for anything that isn’t a 2” shank.

 

[skinnj1]

https://www.machinetools.com/en/for...yY2gvZm9yLXNhbGUvbWFjaGluZXM/cT1DYWRkaWxhYw==

https://www.machinetools.com/en/for...uZ2luZS1sYXRoZXM/c3BlY18xX2VuZ2xpc2g9Ky0rMTU=

Here are 2 examples of the type of lathe I am mentioning at high and low end of the price spectrum, no affiliation with either seller or machine. If you have the space, can move / willing to pay rigger to move 3,000+ lbs of iron and have the electrical to power 7.5 hp lathe (=15 to 20 hp rotary phase converter and associated single phase amperage to the converter) your budget could potentially buy a lot more lathe although a whole lot of barrels have been made with far lesser machines. Having a heavy 10 and 2 larger lathes in my shop, the heavy 10 isn't the first I choose for many projects unless one of the others is already tied up.

 

[Rlbol]

There seems to be a large amount of lathes in that price range.
Is there a point or problem with going to large?

I found what appears to be a nice pretty loaded nardini 1440
As well as monarch 61
And a CLAUSING METOSA C1340

 

[skinnj1]

@Rlbol


I wouldn't shop machinetools.com exclusively, is there any machine shope in your area, stop in and BS, they may have something or know someone with one in the corner. Govdeals.com and purplewave.com and actions are another source of ex-academia machines. Sign up on bidspotter.com for notifications on auctions within your drive threshold, note that industrial auctions have mandatory insurance premiums if you choose to self-rig, some plants require using their rigger only, figure that and the buyers premium and sales tax into bid price.

Nardini 1440's are nice to run, parts availability is a little problematic, I have been told. I would definitely check on parts availibility on any of the lathes I am discussing. No one wants a 30+ year old orphan, when it comes to parts, had one of them.

Most of the newer "industrial class" manual lathes have parts availability, alibet exspensive, example Greer machinery in California has the mori clone parts. Older Southbends/Sheldons/Leblonds etc. You are reduced to the "secondary parts market" often, good news is a lot of lathes came out of South Bend Indiana so parts are there if you look.

Most hobbiests hit the easy button with a Pacific rim new machine, a lot of job shops have a better class machine. While you don't need a Mori or another high quality lathe to spin up a barrel- do you want a "ruger precision rifle" or an "AI" for your lathe, both hit the target. It is hard for us to spend "your money" especially without knowing your goals and prior experience.

 

[Rlbol]

I got to run both Sb today. After dealing with my Logan I have to say I am empressed by the quality of the south bends.

They were both very nice and have every imaginable extra for each.

How ever after seeing what you can get in a larger more modern lathe such as being able to thread metric with out needing more gears, dro’s As well as just heavy equipment I am having a difficult time justifying the expense of the heavy 10 .
Am I just over thinking things?

 

[skinnj1]

@Rlbol

While I steered you towards the more modern industrial machines, it was because I thought you were looking to spend up to $10k. It's harder for me to tell you how much of your hard earned money you should spend. I have a friend who after playing in my shop for a few years, wanted his "own lathe" to go in his dirt floor barn, money was a significant object so I looked until I found him an old atlas, 10" swing 26"ish between centers for a song. My shop space is too valuable to me "tie up" with a machine with that limited of a capability but for him it was perfect. Neither of our perspectives are wrong- just different places in life and now he has his own lathe to "make stuff" and I get the occasional mental excersize dreaming up the setup workarounds and shop made tooling to allow him to do the maximum size projects possible with his lathe.

Is the space you are landing the lathe "drama filled" (aka hard to access with truck/trailer or hard to rig, requires lots of dismantling or the occasional sketchy course of action)? If not, I personally might be a little more cavalier in my selection thinking that if the (presumably) cheaper SB doesn't do what I needed, it could go down the road as I got a bigger /better machine. Having to carry a lathe into a basement Johnny Cash style (one piece at a time) would definitely change my perspective, however.

No matter what you choose, "Happy new machine day" in advance, always a cool feeling...

 

[Wannashootit]

Are either or both hard beds?
You say you "ran" both SB's...what does that mean?
Did you run a two-collar test? Check spindle clearances/runout?
There's so many things to check on an older lathe- test cuts are mandatory.

The advantages of the SB's is there's very little that can go wrong due to their simplicity- and when something does, usually a piece of cake to diagnose it.
Parts support is excellent as there's always some that are past their usable lives and are being parted out.

Belt drive, spindle through either cast iron or brass bushings...nothing to "break"...
Compared to, a gear head- with those, better know what you're looking at. Parts availability? Worn, broken gears can be impossible to find. And cost to have replacements custom made is prohibitive- meaning that smoking deal can quickly turn to scrap iron.