Rifle Scopes Schmidt and Bender PM2 LRR-Mil Reticle *Range/Match Pictures*

[gconnoyer]

TLDR; Scroll to bottom for pictures.

I've been hunting for something with the perfect reticle/glass combo, like everyone else, and have been through a ton of scopes to try them out. Out of everything I've had, S&B glass seems to be the best quality. Nice and bright, sharp, good contrast and color. So thats what I prefer and them coming out with the LRR reticle was exciting.

I'll preface this with a few things.
-My main usage for this optic is going to be PRS oriented
-I'm not a huge fan of christmas tree reticles or the "screen door" I've heard some people say. I feel like I get lost, cant spot impacts, or its just too busy. Having a clean simple reticle is worth more than the extra few hits I may get from having a super precise holdover for wind.
-I sold my 7-35 ATACR for the LRR S&B

This is just my personal opinion and preferences so take it for what its worth....

PM2 with MSR - nice simple reticle but a bit too thick for PRS and not numbered/labeled mils so you have to go through and count each shot for holdover usage.
Leupold MK5 H59. Way too busy, definitely had that screen door effect, constantly felt lost or searching/thinking for what numbers meant what
Kahles 624i SKMR3 - Excellent reticle. The glass quality was just shit (relatively) but its obviously good enough for match use as a ton of top competitors use it. Just personal preference.
Nightforce 7-35 ATACR MIL C - fantastic optic all around. The Mil C was pretty much a PERFECT reticle IMO other than the .2 subtensions sort of "swinging" on the stadia (some are on the top and some on the bottom)
I was REALLY REALLY hesitant to sell. I HATED the stupid rotating eyepiece because I like to have the AADMount Scope caps. I know they give you the tenebrex covers for that reason but always having to rotate them to clear the bolt handle, move them because you cant see the turret, etc was annoying. And I wasn't super impressed with the glass. (I know, mostly irrelevant nitpicking but I'm hunting for the perfect optic)

Onto the S&B...
The locking MTC turrets are new to me.
The locking feature is nice, but I'm not really a fan of the MTC clicks. The in between clicks are much softer than normal and the full mil mark has a good, normal, stiff tactile click. I wish the whole range felt like that and they got rid of the MTC function.
To come off of the full mil takes a bit more effort and I ended up going an extra click or two some times. Not a huge deal as some people say to dial past the full mil and then to come back but something that makes me prefer the old Double Turn Turrets.
One thing that I do like better is that the arrow and lines are on the same plane so they line up great no matter what position you're looking at them. With the old DT turrets the arrow is inset in a pocket and to have the marks line up correctly while leaving your face on the gun you have to offset them about half a tenth while looking at the scope straight on (like you would check before a stage starts) so that it appears correctly with your head on the gun.
The locking ring makes zeroing really nice because you never have to worry if you bumped it a click or not while loosing/tightening the bolts or while turning the turrets.

Intially looking at the reticle online I thought it was a perfect. Had .1 and .2 subtensions, a floating dot, no christmas tree. Everything I wanted someone to come out with.
Once I bought the scope and got it in hand I checked it out and could only look at huge things 300-400y away. I couldnt really tell/decide much but immediately worried that it may be too fine to see the middle section on the lower powers that I like to shoot on, 10x-15x, in a match on a beat up grey target or get lost on some brush.

I have a folder of range pictures that I bring up on my laptop to dry fire practice with at home so it feels like I'm actually shooting on a range instead of just holding on a point. I can zoom in/out and size the targets however large or small I feel like I want that night.
I mounted it up and tried it out there and couldn't get a good feel for it either. The pictures are low res, so I never could get my focus or my eye to focus correctly.

I took it out to the range (steel out to 600) but the berms are all white sand, and white steel that is always fresh.
Easy to see, easy to measure, didn't really help me much. But before I sold it and went back to the 7-35 I wanted to try it in an actual match to see.

Finally had a little off season/practice match this past weekend and had a stage where I was waiting and took the opportunity and took some pictures for anyone on the fence and share my thoughts on it.
Ranges were 250-730. What I felt were "good sized" targets, typically this range is fairly grown up with brush and dark berms so I thought it would be a good test.

I normally like to shoot at 12x, it is a little fine there but still totally usable. I wish they kept the same width for the inside stadia as the outers. Just something a little more "bold" would be nice but not to take away from the simplicity of the reticle.
15x is perfect and with a 15lb 6mm I had no problem all day spotting impacts at any distance. There is lots of FOV and reading the .1 measurements is easy to read even with the targets beat up and grey toward the end of the day.

We did have a holdover only stage and the numbered full Mils as well as the reticle changing from fine to bold as a reference point was very nice to have.

It has a SMALL. TINY. seemingly non-existent. center dot. I can confirm that you CANNOT see it. Even on 25x at a perfect white target its pretty much impossible to see and you get an "open" reticle. I didn't know how I would feel about it but really like using the reticle all day.
Whatever size the Mil C uses is perfect. They need to add that size of a center dot.
I don't feel like I missed any because of the "open center" but would have loved to have had a good sized dot for an aiming point.

At any rate, I'm happy with it for now and don't feel the need to switch. I feel like at some point you can't have everything and have to settle. So that's where I'm at now. If in a few matches I decide I'm having some issues with it the 7-35 ATACR will be my choice.

Anyway, I'll shut up and here's the pictures. I didn't adjust parallax for these so they may not be perfect, and they were on my phone and cropped WAY in. I did the best I could but the tiny image is already cut way down in size/quality. I tried to rotate/crop them as similar as possible. I debated cropping in more so that it seemed closer to the reticle size/detail that I recall but I didn't want a bunch of different sizes and perspectives.


15x at 442 yards


12x at 545 yards


15x at 545 yards


15x at 705 yards


15x at 735 yards

 

[Lowlight]

I put the Illumination on in order to hone in on the tiny center dot. Just nudge it up a little bit and it will be visible

 

[MysizeisMAGNUM]

Before I call and bother Jerry, will S&B retro fit this reticle with any PMii?

I'm sure someone on the forum has asked...

 

[gconnoyer]

That I dont know. I feel like I remember reading in that they cant because the illumination/reticle etching is different

 

[plidenbrock]

Thanks for that review. Very informative.

 

[Jackomason]

Before I call and bother Jerry, will S&B retro fit this reticle with any PMii?

I'm sure someone on the forum has asked...

No, its a whole new illumination system. Thats what S&B told me.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Owned one before as well. I could see the dot, but only on contrasting (mainly white) backgrounds, or with the illumination on (daylight bright).

It’s a good reticle overall, but it was a bit small for me for PRS.

For reference:

LRR dot: .025 mil
Skmr/skmr3 dot : .035
Mil-C dot: .05 mil

 

[djarecke]

Before I call and bother Jerry, will S&B retro fit this reticle with any PMii?

I'm sure someone on the forum has asked...

Most of your Schmidts have the limited edition extra high quality glass. I'm sure if it can be done, it would be to your scopes

But seriously, I'm not sure.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

It is not a bother for you to call Jerry. He loves talking optics

 

[Heretoimproveforhunting]

i thought i would add a bit to this thread as i found the OPs pictures helpful in making an initial decision on ordering a s&b 5-25 with this reticle.

this is just an initial impression based on receiving it and peering out through it from my office window at distances varying from close, to farther than i can practically see. time of day was 5:30 CT - so sun still up but staring to fall

the OPs pictures in the mid range (10 - 12 - 15x) do the .02 mil dot (or i should say the tendency for the dot’s visibility to fade) fair justice. as the op noted theyre pictures so its another thing to see in person. but i think he did a good job with them. the only in person difference is really crispness of the .1 mil hashes that run out either direction from the center dot. the pictures here are much blurrier than reality. i could clearly and crisply make those out at nearly any power down to about 8x. they blend a bit at that power and below for my eyes.

as lowlight pointed out the daylight bright is a nice feature. however, for me in the 10x-12x range it tended to just bold the .1 mil hashes. it didnt aid me in picking up the the .02 dot as much.

now at 15x, and certainly above, yes the center dot was clearly visible and the ilum made the center dot pop that much more. so at high powers it does its part.

but at those mid range powers where a fair amount of shots are taken at times at intermediate ranges, im wondering about how much of a miss that open ‘space’ could tranlate too if my ‘solid crosshair’ type brain can’t fix in and hold the .02 dot.

at glance it looks ‘big’. but in reality it is .22 mils i suppose? so what would that translate to at 500 yds, 1000yds etc? i dont see taking a shot farther out at a low power.

in general i really really like the .02 subtension of the inner ~1/3 of the reticle. i dont find them too fine for lower powers and really like them magnified at distance. if the center portion of this reticle were a solid crosshair subtending .02 , with .01 mil marks (or some derivation thereof for wind holds) in the center portion i’d be in love.

but the perceived gap (as i lose that center dot) at those mid range powers that presents itself in certain light / background conditions is a bit of a concern.

i’m going to drag an msr with me for more comparison. i know it subtends much thicker. im trying to ascertain whether i stick with the lrr or do i go back to a closed center crosshair like on the h2cmr (which subtends .04mils in a 3-27 s&b). not newrly as fine as the lrr for long range, but i dont know that it would be too thick either.

will follow up after i spend some more time behind it

 

[bjay]

i thought i would add a bit to this thread as i found the OPs pictures helpful in making an initial decision on ordering a s&b 5-25 with this reticle.

this is just an initial impression based on receiving it and peering out through it from my office window at distances varying from close, to farther than i can practically see. time of day was 5:30 CT - so sun still up but staring to fall

the OPs pictures in the mid range (10 - 12 - 15x) do the .02 mil dot (or i should say the tendency for the dot’s visibility to fade) fair justice. as the op noted theyre pictures so its another thing to see in person. but i think he did a good job with them. the only in person difference is really crispness of the .1 mil hashes that run out either direction from the center dot. the pictures here are much blurrier than reality. i could clearly and crisply make those out at nearly any power down to about 8x. they blend a bit at that power and below for my eyes.

as lowlight pointed out the daylight bright is a nice feature. however, for me in the 10x-12x range it tended to just bold the .1 mil hashes. it didnt aid me in picking up the the .02 dot as much.

now at 15x, and certainly above, yes the center dot was clearly visible and the ilum made the center dot pop that much more. so at high powers it does its part.

but at those mid range powers where a fair amount of shots are taken at times at intermediate ranges, im wondering about how much of a miss that open ‘space’ could tranlate too if my ‘solid crosshair’ type brain can’t fix in and hold the .02 dot.

at glance it looks ‘big’. but in reality it is .22 mils i suppose? so what would that translate to at 500 yds, 1000yds etc? i dont see taking a shot farther out at a low power.

in general i really really like the .02 subtension of the inner ~1/3 of the reticle. i dont find them too fine for lower powers and really like them magnified at distance. if the center portion of this reticle were a solid crosshair subtending .02 , with .01 mil marks (or some derivation thereof for wind holds) in the center portion i’d be in love.

but the perceived gap (as i lose that center dot) at those mid range powers that presents itself in certain light / background conditions is a bit of a concern.

i’m going to drag an msr with me for more comparison. i know it subtends much thicker. im trying to ascertain whether i stick with the lrr or do i go back to a closed center crosshair like on the h2cmr (which subtends .04mils in a 3-27 s&b). not newrly as fine as the lrr for long range, but i dont know that it would be too thick either.

will follow up after i spend some more time behind it

Ive been playing with this scope for a while now.IMO this is not your scope inside 600yards..that center dot so tiny.it really shines from 1k to 2k yards

 

[Heretoimproveforhunting]

reubenski - thanks for helping me with the math.

bjay - do you think it would be more functional at lower mag / shorter ranges with a solid crosshair center? or does that just defeat all of the dot benefits at super long ranges? to me the .02 thickness of a line at distance doesnt seem as though it would cover too much. . .

 

[bjay]

reubenski - thanks for helping me with the math.

bjay - do you think it would be more functional at lower mag / shorter ranges with a solid crosshair center? or does that just defeat all of the dot benefits at super long ranges? to me the .02 thickness of a line at distance doesnt seem as though it would cover too much. . .

I remember p4f reticle dropping magni for wider FOV reticle is almost useless 8 power down without turning on illumination..hash lines too fine ( my eyes still good no wearing glasses)
LRR is twice worst..i understand we can turn a reticle like that into duplex crosshair..but i have to agree with you, completely defeating the purpose