Rifle Scopes Schmidt&Bender P4

[Dark Horse]

Going to purchase a 3-12x50 for an M14. I was thinking that the P4 fine may be on the thin side for fast, rapid fire target engagement at close range on 3x.

Would using the original P4 reticle be better suited given it's thicker lines? Will still shoot to 1000 yards with it but 100-600 yards is going to be the sweet spot.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

The P4 will work fine for what you want it to do. It will be easier to pick up at the lower powers than the P4F.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

S&B recommend the P4 for the 3-12x, and the P4F for the 5-25x.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

That was my thought but talked to a Schmidt salesman today and he said the P4 fine outsells the P4 10-1 and has a much higher resale. Just didn't make sense. It's possible the 5-25's outsell the 3-12's by a considerable margin so that would justify the disparity.

 

[madd0c]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

Love my s&b p4fs. I definitely do not think you would go wrong with P4F if you are concerned about line thickness. It is very visible at 5x.

The only thing I don;t like is the ~1mil crosshair (actually approx 0.8 mil with a ~.2mil gap) before the 0.5 mil reticle lines kick in. Even on a 308, the 1 mil gap makes holdover under ~225yd a guessing game because you don;t have a point of reference other than the crosshair and the 1 mil line below it. I always end up with some verticle stringing when holding over at these ranges.

Visibility though is just fine (no pun intended)

hope that helps,
madd0c

 

[M21guy]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

With a 50mm odj on the M14 your ring height has to be a little more if your going to be able to make use of the irons ever. That sets the scope up kind of high. Just a little insight you may or may not have guessed already.

 

[Powerstrokediesel]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

S&B recommended the P4F for the 3-12X50 "Military" model when I contacted them and had the same question; P4 vs P4F in the 3-12X50 scope. The tech person at S&B, USA I spoke to indicated the P4F was the most appropriate reticle for the 3-12X50 "MTC" version.

I have the P4F and it is excellent for my requirements throughout the 3-12 power range.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

+1 on the P4F.

I'm waiting for my 3-12 to come back from SuB now.

I had the same queries/worries about the P4F on low mag settings

When I spoke to the guys in Germany they said there should not be any problem with the fine version in my scope.

 

[Powerstrokediesel]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

Correct; there is no problem.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

You guys are right that the P4F will work fine in a 3-12x but when he said he needs "fast, rapid fire target engagement at close range on 3x" then the heavier P4 will be easier to pick up for the eye. If it was mainly for MOA sized target precision work then I would recommend the P4F also. All comes down to the use.

 

[dieselten]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

I have a P4F and I love it (5-25) but I do have to say, "Thank god for the illuminated reticle, because I cant see shit below 7x"

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

To the OP, here's a P4F at 5x in my 5-25x at 400 yards just to give you an idea of what it will look like at lower powers. Still usable as in person it's easier to see. If it was being used as a semi CQB reticle for the M1A the outer heavy duplex will get you on man sized targets but the P4 would be heavier and easier to see in the reticle portion.

 

[JL]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

I would say P4 is spot on for 3-12.
Reticle looks much, much slimmer in FOV at full magnification when compared to 5-25.
My scope was in reticle update last summer, couldnt be happier with it.

Half of magnification is "missing", therefore P4F will look really thin in 3-12 -almost disappears if scope is cranked down to 3X. Even P4 looks thin. Need pics?

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

Thanks Rob, I have the 5-25 with the P4F and that's exactly why I thought the P4 would do better for my needs.

On 5x even with the white contrast of the target it looks thin. I would think the P4 would be much easier to acquire on 3x.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say P4 is spot on for 3-12.
Reticle looks much, much slimmer in FOV at full magnification when compared to 5-25.
My scope was in reticle update last summer, couldnt be happier with it.

Half of magnification is "missing", therefore P4F will look really thin in 3-12 -almost disappears if scope is cranked down to 3X. Even P4 looks thin. Need pics?

</div></div>

Ordered the P4 today but would still love some pics if you have them available.

 

[JL]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

Give me day or two, will snap few

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

I think you made the right choice for your needs Dark Horse. Glad to have helped.

 

[DT1]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you made the right choice for your needs Dark Horse. Glad to have helped.</div></div>

+1, P4 will be great for your needs.

I read all the rave reviews about the P4F awhile back and got one in a 4-16x. I soon found that the reticle demarcations were usless (to me) for leads and holdovers under 10-12x. Fortunately, Premiere was still modifying S&B scopes at the time and they put a Gen2XL reticle in my scope. Perfect line thickness for field work (IMHO).

I have 3 other S&B scopes, (5x25) with P4 reticles and have never had a problem seeing and shooting MOA targets well beyond 1000yds due to line thickness. That's probably because I seldom have the power cranked up past 15-16x while shooting. 25x is great for milling or finding a target, then crank the magnification back down and shoot.

If I wanted a scope that I could shoot groups or sub MOA targets from the bench or prone at 20-25x, the P4F would be perfect (for me). Reticles, like many things however, are certainly a matter of personal preference.

 

[JL]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

Bit blurry photos, sorry.

12X

3X

 

[ToddM]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

Wow, if that's the P4 I can't even imagine how thin the P4F would be at 3x. It looks like the P4F on the 5-25 above isn't too bad, but I can see where a guy would really want to be able to actually check out these reticles in person to see how they perform for their needs.

 

[JL]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When I spoke to the guys in Germany they said there should not be any problem with the fine version in my scope.
</div></div>
I disagree. And I´m surprised why they recommended that reticle in the first place.
I mean, if P4F at 5X is already very close to too thin, thickness will be reduced to almost half of that at 3X.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

I saw Rob's original post with the pics thru his scope at x5 - which is what prompted me to ask the question to SuB about x3.

Unlike the OP here, my shooting with this scope is against static paper at known distances from 300 - 900yds so, although I want the scope to be usable at all mag settings, in practical terms I tend to use only the higher mags.

When I spoke to SuB they stated (as mentioned in the post you quote) that there should be "kein problem" in using the P4F in my 3-12x50.

As Rob states above...it depends on what type of use the scope is intended for. For quick acquisition of moving targets against dark backgrounds maybe this is not the most suitable solution?

Will be happy to post pics once I get the scope back and out to the range so anyone thinking of doing the same can reach their own conclusion......

 

[Powerstrokediesel]

Re: Schmidt&Bender P4

Posting photographs of reticles on the internet is akin to posting YouTube videos of silencers in order to show how quiet they are. It just doesn't work. It does give one a rough impression of what one might see but that is all. It is useful to have these images posted as a starting point but ultimately one has to experience them “in person” to really see how they work.

I have the S&B 3-12X50 military with the P4F on a GAP M40A3. For me it functions excellently at all magnifications for my purposes. The P4 would be less precise at 5X and beyond for my purposes because of the thickness of the reticle lines. Ultimately it's a personal decision.