Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender PMII 5-25x vs Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 4.5-27x

[Zatoichi66]

Are they really comparable? Via search, there’s always someone who claims “S&B set the standard....” and someone else who says “Vortex is good for the money.”

This is mostly targets, some varmints.

Looking to buy & cry once. Resale value goes to S&B. I started with S&B but keep reading good about Vortex.

 

[Poorboyr]

Vortex is not on the same level as Schmidt plain and simple.

 

[bjay]

Agree with poor...unless you're after vortex compactness,reticle but really heavy...sb win the rest

 

[Kadams1563]

It comes down to money for me. Is the S&B a better scope then the Razor? Yes BUT is is $2k better?

For me NOPE.

It is nice being able to see billet holes in targets though. My razor is not as clear or as sharp but when I paid $1600 for my gen II I’m not gonna argue.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

From the two you have listed I like the Vortex best. The Vortex only negative (for some) is the excessive weight. This doesn't bother me because the rifle it's on is not a gun I pack around.

 

[lennyo3034]

I traded my Razor for a S&B and regretted it. Sure glass was better but I hated the reticle I ended up with. Ended up trading it away again.

 

[diverdon]

Another thing to consider when comparing those two particular scopes is that the Schmidt is an older design and has tunneling from 5-7x. The 5x fov is 17.4' the Vortex 4.5 fov is 25.3'. So if you might ever be trying to get on a mover offhand the Vortex might have the advantage between those two. Further the Vortex comes with a sunshade in the box.

The newer S&B 3-27 is the scope that is clearly superior to either of the scopes you mention.

 

[Zatoichi66]

But isn’t the 3-27 around $5500?

 

[6point5CM]

I prefer the glass and reticle of the S&B, the turrets of the Vortex. Depends what is the most important to you. Both are nice. My ONLY complaint about the PMII is the turret spacing. I wish they had wider spacing and 12 vs 14 MIL rotations to achieve said spacing. If both are on a prize table, I'm taking the S&B.

 

[Sheldon N]

It comes down to money for me. Is the S&B a better scope then the Razor? Yes BUT is is $2k better?

I've bought 4 different S+B 5-25's, two new and two used. I've paid between $2k and $2350 for each of them. Agree that stretching an extra $2k is a lot, but when the price is as close as it is they are worth consideration.

To answer the original question, the glass in my S+B is noticeably better than the Razor Gen II's I've looked through.

 

[Zatoichi66]

My budget is $3500. I suspect mounts & flip up caps, cleaning stuff, etc will add another few hundred, but that’s different than the $4800 I found the PMII 3-27 priced at.....insert “poor face emoji” here

 

[canezach]

I have both on rifles at the moment. I have the S&B 5-25 with the Gen II XR reticle. The Vortex has the EBR2C. For matches, I prefer the Xmas tree style reticle with 0.2 subtensions. Optical quality is better on the S&B, to my eyes, but it's reasonably close. I prefer the turrets on the Razor, but I'm probably in the minority when I say locking turrets aren't that important for me. During matches, I find myself trying to dial and I will sometimes forget the turrets are locked, or I didn't fully unlock them, so it takes me another second or two to pull my head out of ass and get it right. The S&B weighs less, which isn't really a huge issue on the rifle. You can find a 4.5-27 for about $500 less than you can find the S&B, unless you're looking specifically for the 3-27. Resale value goes to the S&B

I would recommend looking at the Minox ZP5 with the MR4 reticle. It'll be in the same price range you're currently looking in and it's a fantastic scope.

 

[VegasHKShooter]

I currently shoot S&B and NightForce. My good friend and shooting buddy shoots a Vortex Razor. I agree with everything covered so far. I will throw in one little tweet. The S&B 3-20 with a H2CMR reticle currently resides on my GA Precision GAP-10. THAT is a bad ass scope. I may prefer it to my 5-25. I really like the 3-20. Sure, you give up a little bit on the top, but in matches, I’m not usually running on 20-25 anyway. More like 14-16, 18 tops. I’m usually looking for more FOV, and the 3-20 gives me that. Love the H2CMR reticle where the mil dots are open circles, and the horizontal line is .2mils.
Super usable reticle, and not cluttered.
Again, I have the 5-25 and the 3-20, and for many things....comps being one, I like the 3-20 better. Great scope, often overlooked power range.

 

[Vargmat]

About 1,5 years ago, I made the switch from a Vortex Razor G2 4,5-27x56 to a Schmidt 5-25x56 pm2 with MSR reticle. I will state, that I like the vortex turrets better, but everything else goes to Schmidt and I have not had a second of doubt since. Now I just wish I could afford another Schmidt for my other precision rifle.

With that written, its not that the Vortex is a poor scope, it is a very good scope. Most people wont be able to tell much if any difference while looking through them. I guess it falls over the point of diminishing returns...For some, the schmidt is worth every penny, for others the Vortex is more than enough.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Are they really comparable? Via search, there’s always someone who claims “S&B set the standard....” and someone else who says “Vortex is good for the money.”

This is mostly targets, some varmints.

Looking to buy & cry once. Resale value goes to S&B. I started with S&B but keep reading good about Vortex.

Do you know which type of reticle you prefer?

This is going to be the first question in a series you need to ask yourself when choosing an optic.

 

[Zatoichi66]

P4L fein, probably; possibly H58. I’m going to visit my brother in PA. He lives about a hour from Eurooptic, so I thought i’d look at them. I wear glasses/bifocals & want to see before I buy.

 

[Kadams1563]

Your already stuck in spending your whole $3500 budget so why even debate this anymore.

Buy the most expensive you can afford so you won’t regret it later. If you buy something a little cheaper you won’t be happy with it and will always want to upgrade.

 

[Zatoichi66]

Good point. I’m trying to be frugal & truthfully I thought Vortex was on par with Schmidt & Bender, but the more I read & ask— the more I understand they’re both good, but the S&B is better.

 

[canezach]

I wasn't joking when I said look at the Minox. You'll be in that $2500 range, so you should have plenty for caps (I use Addland caps) and a mount or rings

 

[Zatoichi66]

Will do—aren’t they the dudes who made “spy cameras” during the 1950s & 1960s? I know the name Minox from somewhere, but not sure why.....

 

[Zatoichi66]

Why do you recommend a comparably priced scope from Minox? Is it better than the S&B?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Why do you recommend a comparably priced scope from Minox? Is it better than the S&B?

The glass on the minox I had blew the Schmidt 5-25’s I’ve owned out of the water. However, we are talk top tier glass either way.

If you like one of the Schmidt reticles, go with it. If you like the mr4 reticle, go with minox.

 

[OzzyO20]

The S&B and anything Vortex makes just simply aren't in the same class of optics. There is nothing, and I mean nothing wrong with a Gen II Razor. Plenty of guys use them and do great in PRS. But again, they aren't in the same ballpark. S&B has a history of military contracts, world renowned glass, and is still the 'gold standard' of tactical LR optics.

The parallax is phenomenal, and the most true to stated I've seen (i.e. if it says 500 on the parallax, you can bet it's going to be on the money or close when you shoot at 500) and that might sound silly, but in something like PRS that's huge. You can set the parallax and not have to spend time bobbing your heard if the stage is long enough to require it.

There isn't a reticle that you can't get in a S&B that isn't comparable to Vortex's own design (H59, MSR, etc.). Schmidt also recently bumped the warranty way up on their scopes, which is fully transferable and likely unnecessary. They offer one free full detailed inspection and cleaning of your scope in a 10 year window, that is they'll completely disassemble, clean, and inspect every mechanism and send it back with a clean bill of health.

I have a S&B, I've had and shot plenty of Vortex. The only other scope I'll buy would be maybe the 3-27 S&B for a tactical LR optic.

 

[m6z]

You can't really compare them. If you want a reticle that's in the same league as the Vortex you'll be paying considerably more.

The S&B 5-25 models I've seen around the $2k mark have simple reticles. If you want something like the Tremor 3 or H59 you're going to be $3-$4k.

 

[OzzyO20]

You can't really compare them. If you want a reticle that's in the same league as the Vortex you'll be paying considerably more.

The S&B 5-25 models I've seen around the $2k mark have simple reticles. If you want something like the Tremor 3 or H59 you're going to be $3-$4k.

Not true. I got my RAL8000 with H59 for a decent amount less than $3,000.

 

[m6z]

Not true. I got my RAL8000 with H59 for a decent amount less than $3,000.

New or used? If new, that was a great price.

 

[canezach]

Why do you recommend a comparably priced scope from Minox? Is it better than the S&B?

Because the Minox is an incredible scope. I don't care for most of the S&B reticles, even though I own one. The H2CMR is decent and the Gen 2 XR is ok (that's the one I own), but the Minox's MR4 reticle is my favorite reticle on the market. The glass on the Minox is exceptional and the tracking is spot on. There were some complaints about second rev tightness and mushiness in the turrets, but Minox seems to have resolved those complaints with updated turrets. It sounds like Minox is listening to the consumer and making changes, which is never a bad thing! There is absolutely no CA on the Minox, which is really hard to do! They've made a phenomenal scope. Here's a few threads to read through about the Minox:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/minox-zp5-5-25x56.6269107/
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tangent-theta-vs-minox-zp5-5-25-review.6529754/

 

[Rob01]

Are they really comparable? Via search, there’s always someone who claims “S&B set the standard....” and someone else who says “Vortex is good for the money.”

This is mostly targets, some varmints.

Looking to buy & cry once. Resale value goes to S&B. I started with S&B but keep reading good about Vortex.

Sorry just saw your post but having used S&Bs for 6 years in matches and now using Vortex Razor IIs I can say the glass is a push for me and when I got the first Razor II I let a bunch of people look through and they said it looked the same. I like the knobs on the Vortex better in that they lock easily and have the clickless zeroing for a perfect zero. I had been a little off at times with the S&B. Also the 10 mils per turn is nicer as the spacing in clicks is a little wider. Reticles are no contest Vortex as the 2C beats any of the S&B reticles I used including the H2CMR which I really liked and I dislike Horus so not an option.

So take a look for yourself and see what you think but having a lot of experience with both I would take the Vortex and did.

And before any wise asses or people try to dismiss my opinion because I shoot for Vortex, let me say it has nothing to do with my opinion on the two. My years of experience with them does.

 

[Nortex]

I've yet to see two razors alike in glass quality. We had several in our squad at a club match and only one was close to schmidt quality and acceptable imo.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Sorry just saw your post but having used S&Bs for 6 years in matches and now using Vortex Razor IIs I can say the glass is a push for me and when I got the first Razor II I let a bunch of people look through and they said it looked the same. I like the knobs on the Vortex better in that they lock easily and have the clickless zeroing for a perfect zero. I had been a little off at times with the S&B. Also the 10 mils per turn is nicer as the spacing in clicks is a little wider. Reticles are no contest Vortex as the 2C beats any of the S&B reticles I used including the H2CMR which I really liked and I dislike Horus so not an option.

So take a look for yourself and see what you think but having a lot of experience with both I would take the Vortex and did.

And before any wise asses or people try to dismiss my opinion because I shoot for Vortex, let me say it has nothing to do with my opinion on the two. My years of experience with them does.

Hey rob.....don’t you shoot for vortex?

Honestly, now that I have some Schmidt (need them for the close parallax), the next optic I get will likely be the gen 2 razor. They are a flat out workhorse and the eye box is ridiculously good.

 

[Zatoichi66]

Thank you all for the input. I can’t wait to look. Eurooptic has some Minox, as well as Vortex.

With all the companies making good glass, I limited my search & keep comparing to S&B, but on line, i’ve looked at US Optics, Nightforce, Swarovski, Steiner, Leupold, Bushnell, maybe a couple others. I’ve been a Leupold snob for about 15 years. Snob probably isn’t the right term—once I got used to looking through quality glass, I kept bitching about my cheaper scopes & started swapping the, out for Leupolds.

BTW, there’s a great deal of good basic info in this site—i’ve been reading & listening to all the various forums & “Every Day Sniper” podcasts.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

We have extended our S&B Sale which has some exceptional values

 

[Zatoichi66]

Doug,
Thank you. Do you sell appropriate rings for a flat top AR?
I was planning to look through various scopes at Eurooptic, but that’s probably next month. Given your sale & my 99% commitment to S&B, perhaps we should talk?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Doug,
Thank you. Do you sell appropriate rings for a flat top AR?
I was planning to look through various scopes at Eurooptic, but that’s probably next month. Given your sale & my 99% commitment to S&B, perhaps we should talk?

This is going on a gas gun, or a bolt gun with flat rail on chassis?

If this is a gas gun, you may want to look at the Kahles k318i.

 

[Zatoichi66]

AR15 with 20” Krieger barrel.

 

[Dthomas3523]

AR15 with 20” Krieger barrel.

I’d look at the kahles and the Schmidt ultra short.

 

[Zatoichi66]

Why Kahles? DThom— are you trying to confuse me by adding MORE choices to my simple brain?

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Doug,
Thank you. Do you sell appropriate rings for a flat top AR?
I was planning to look through various scopes at Eurooptic, but that’s probably next month. Given your sale & my 99% commitment to S&B, perhaps we should talk?

My pleasure to "meet" and chat with you. Please give me a call, 516-217-1000

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here’s a Schmidt 5-25 next to a kahles 525i. The 318i would be even more compact.

 

[Zatoichi66]

Actually, the Kahles is about $300 cheaper? I don’t know Kahles brand.....so i’ll ask: how do they compare to S&B?

Why does a “gas gun” matter with S&B?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Actually, the Kahles is about $300 cheaper? I don’t know Kahles brand.....so i’ll ask: how do they compare to S&B?

Why does a “gas gun” matter with S&B?

Schmidt 5-25 and 3-27 are large and long. People
Typically try to keep AR platforms a bit more compact.

 

[5RWill]

Kahles K318i is one of the smallest ultra shorts on the market along with the Leupold Mark 5 & S&B 5-20. Would go great on an AR platform.

 

[jbailey]

AR15 with 20” Krieger barrel.

Real simple question: why do you need a 5-25x optic on an AR15? What is the rationale here?

 

[Poorboyr]

Real simple question: why do you need a 5-25x optic on an AR15? What is the rationale here?

I was thinking the same thing. The Leupold mark 5hd is a really nice compact scope.

 

[Zatoichi66]

Varmints & paper at >300 yards

It’s a long range gun & a very near-sighted shooter.

My other ARs have Aimpoint, ACOG & a Leupold 1-5x MR/T. This is purely for >300 yards.

 

[generalzip]

I own both scopes. For PRS the Razor is the better scope.

1. Much faster turrets and better spacing to see where you are at.
2. Glass is awesome in both. Both do the job and then some. I find the Razor has a warmer tone and makes targets "pop" more, especially in cloudy weather. The S&B has a tick better resolution which is nice for spotting and watching trace, but you can see trace in both scopes.
3. The parallax is smoother and less finicky on the Razor.
4. Razor does not tunnel at low power and offers a larger field of view which is very important for people that shoot more than off a bench at a range.
5. S&B has the worst illumination knob in the industry.
6. S&B will cost you a lot more $$$. From a value standpoint they are not in the same league, IMO.
7. Warranty with Vortex will be as good or better and much faster than S&B.
8. The EBR reticles are nearly perfect in my opinion. I even hear they are coming out with a new one for 2019
9. Razor has a more generous eye-box. Awesome for positional shooting
10. If I had to pick one of them to use as a baseball bat, I'd pick the Razor.

1. The S&B does have a little better glass, but it is REALLY hard to notice. It's like going to Best Buy and looking at TV's. Next to each other in the store you can tell a slight difference. But even if you buy the cheaper one, once it's home and mounted it looks amazing and is more than you need.
2. You can be one of the "cool kids" with expensive German glass.

Both scopes are great, but you can literally almost get 2 Razors on the exchange here for the price of 1 S&B with a good reticle.

 

[Zatoichi66]

I’m not a “cool kid” but I don’t mind paying for quality.
It seems I need to look through both

 

[Hk996]

Real simple question: why do you need a 5-25x optic on an AR15? What is the rationale here?

I personally like the optics and scope functions on my AR which is used primarily for bench style target shooting. Heck I can use the scope to spot my friends shots at the local range (out to 600yrds). And it's great for shooting 100yrds because I see my hits.

 

[Zatoichi66]

Most of us near-sighted folks always want more vision, so I know that’s part of my reason. But mostly small targets at distance. My prior AR Hbar has a Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14x which I strain to see clay pigeons rested on the berm. Tagging the 18”x18” gong was easy, but soda cans—I prefer more power.

 

[generalzip]

I’m not a “cool kid” but I don’t mind paying for quality.
It seems I need to look through both

Didn't mean the "cool kid" comment as an insult. That's important to some people. For a lot S&B was the gold standard for a long time and considered the best. To have a S&B to some is to have the "best". Even today they are great scopes but I honestly think they have sat stagnant while other companies were more innovative and listening to actual feedback from shooters over the years. Vortex and Bushnell are good examples of this. Even Leopold sat stagnant, but recently with the Mark 5 and their new rangefinders have really stepped it up a notch.

I think looking through both you honestly won't be able to tell a difference. Especially if you haven't spent countless hours behind high end scopes. I play guitar and it's the same way. If I pick up a fender and a Martin/Taylor and play the same song, a layman would say it sounds exactly the same. I've been playing for so long that to me the $3-400 fender sounds much worse than a Martin to me. You really need to use them quite a bit to begin to appreciate the minor differences in equipment at this level of quality and craftsmanship.