Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

[remau308]

Ok, so I'm about to drop the cash for a Schmidt and Bender, and I've hit a speed bump. They offer two different turrets (3 now because of the locking turret). I believe one is the MTC turret and the other is the normal non-MTC turret. I really like the look of the MTC turret, but I'm not sure if I would be making the right decision seeing as I have no experience with Schmidt and Bender. I have however played with a Premier MTC turret for reference, but I'm not sure if it will be close or not. Here are two links of the two scopes I'm looking at. I grabbed from Jay's website at Sport Optics for better clarity to my question.

Here is the MTC turrets that I like:
http://sportoptics.com/schmidt-bender-pm-5-25x56-P4FCMCC-MTC.aspx

And the non-MTC turret, but with the H2CMR reticle instead:
http://sportoptics.com/schmidt-bender-pm-5-25x56-P4FCMCC.aspx

To better clarify, I do not compete in any "tactical" competitions that require you to make corrections while staying on the scope. The competitions I do compete in have enough time to allow me to get off the scope and make adjustments. So in that sense, I do not NEED the MTC turrets. I just like the idea behind them and the looks of them.
Any experienced opinions on this subject would be greatly appreciated. If you have only read about it on the internet, please do not post your opinion.

Thanks in advance,
Troy

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

First off good choice in scope

I am not a fan of MTC knobs no matter who makes them. I just don't like the dropping in the heavy mil as it's tougher to get it out to go over or under .1 or .2 mils. That said others do like them.

To the reticles, the P4F is an excellent reticle but I have recently been using the H2CMR more and more and really like it. It's my favorite now. With the .2 mil marks on the horizontal it makes holds for wind or movers easier and also has the .1 mil break down for ranging.

If I had to make the choice I would take the H2CMR over the MTC.

 

[remau308]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Thanks Rob, with that said, does anyone have a link to a detailed view and description of the H2CMR reticle? I know the relative breakdown of one, but can't find a decent picture of one. I have seen some blurry ones, but they don't really show exactly how it looks. Any help is appreciated.

 

[Hellbender]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

If you don't NEED MTC's, I would go with the standard DT.

And if you don't KNOW if you need them, then you probably don't.

Not to disagree with Rob, because for what he shoots, I'm sure it's the best for him; but in my opinion if you don't compete in tactical comps, then the P4F may be better for you. The H2CMR reticle is not symmetrical, and it messes with my brain (which, admittedly, may be lacking).

Before spending that kind of $$, I would do some good research and see if someone local would have a scope you could get behind, even if you have to drive a few hours to see it.

 

[bengates]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

I'm with Rob on the MTC. I like my standard double turn turret on my S&B's and I shoot only in the light - or at least enough light to see what I'm doing.

I have a P4F and the only thing I don't care for is the wind holds. I really like the idea of the H2CMR, but I have a feeling that if I get it I'll want to swap out all my scopes for consistancy. It is a little funky looking the first time you look through it though. But I think you can get over it because of it's functionality.

I'd steer clear of the MTC, but the reticle may be your biggest decision. Good luck!

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

I have found with the MTC knobs if you go past the .1 and .2 and then come back it is much easier. I like it when dialing several MIlls at a time.

 

[remau308]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

The competition I compete in is 600, 800, 900, and 1,000yard five shots onto marked steel targets. So, I do a bit of dialing during that, and I can see how it would help me count mils without even looking at the scope, I really appreciate all your comments so far.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have found with the MTC knobs if you go past the .1 and .2 and then come back it is much easier. I like it when dialing several MIlls at a time. </div></div>

I don't like having to do that. I like to dial right to the number.

No problem Hellbender as reticles, like stocks, are a personal preference. Some might not like the H2CMR as much as the P4F. I like both alot but find the H2CMR offers me a little more for my shooting.

Remau, here's some pics of the P4F and H2CMR so you can compare. They are both looking at an 8" steel at 400 yards. I don't have one of the P4F at 25x though but you get the idea. Also as I usually say I suck at through the scope pics and these were taken just for the reticle and don't show the clarity or FOV of the actual view through the scope.

The P4F has 1 mil(larger) and .5 mil(smaller marks) and on the vertical under the cross hair has an even larger line at every 5 mils. It also has .2 mil marks on the outer edge near the heavier duplex which is nice for ranging.

The H2CMR has hollow mil dots that are .2 mils wide. It has .2 mil marks on the horizontal and .5 mil marks on the verticle. Also between 2 and 3 mils on the vertical it breaks down into .1 mil marks. Also the whole reticle out to the heavier duplex illuminates.

25x

20x

15x

10x

5x

 

[JByrd]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

remau, i was in your shoes a couple weeks ago. and got a chance to get me mittens on a locking mtc.i love the locking feature to cross it up as a hunting rig, but as hard as i tried to make myself like the mtcs i couldnt. the click is waaaaaay to heavy. if they could lighten it up i would be on it in a heartbeat,but as it sits its not functional as rob said you WILL overdial .1-.2 mils. i really hope schmidt will come out with a 2.0 version of mtc. all the rest of it is superb , cerakote, reg clicks locking turrets EXACTLY how i would like it.

 

[remau308]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Rob, outstanding pictures. The ones of the H2CMR really show what it looks like rather than these crappy pdf's I've been finding on the web. This is really going to make this a hard decision.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Glad to help out. The PDFs are ok but don't give you the real idea of what they look like. Actual pics, even not very good ones like mine, give a better idea.

Procovert, the MTC on the S&B isn't any harder than the Premier or USO versions I have used. They are all just a little too heavy. Some who have used them alot say the heavy click does lighten some with use. If it was a just heavier than a standard click feel then it would be good for me but unfortunately they are a little heavy for my liking.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Nice pics Rob, thanks for posting them. I'm really liking that H2CMR, the extra marks inside 1 mil look useful in comps... maybe its time for a change from the P4F.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

how much elevation will the 5-20 have? Will it be 50 or 56 objective? I assume the H2CMR will also be available for that scope... right?

 

[Jeeprider]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

I own a 5-25 PMII with the H2CMR and the MTC turrets and love it. I have also owned a 5-25 PMII with the standard turrets and the P4F reticle and prefer both the H2CMR reticle and the MTC turrets. Again these things are all subjective, but I will say I have had a good amount of time behind both so I would like to consider myself to be a pretty good judge. The MTC turrets take a little getting used to in the beginning, but after that they're amazing!

 

[Rifle Barrel Blanks]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Hey rob, do they make a reticle that is a little thinner than the p4F? I dont think its too thick but I tend to shoot alot at higher power and hate when the reticle takes over the target.

 

[Mike]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Nothing in the world beats an S&B 5-25 with the H2CMR reticle for tactical matches.

As far as turrets go I think it's moot. It's different than anything you're using now and so you'll have to learn something new anyway. I do tend to side with Rob but don't think it's as much of a deal breaker for me. I do think it's BS that the MTC is more expensive and on THAT point it is a deal breaker.

 

[matt33]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Having tried them both, I much prefer the standard double turn turrets to the MTC's. I have a P4f reticle which is nearly perfect except for the lack of .5 mil hash marks between the cross-hair and first full mil.

 

[Rifle Barrel Blanks]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

mike is the h2cmr thicker than the p4f?

 

[Mike]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcvibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mike is the h2cmr thicker than the p4f? </div></div>

No, but is fine enough to use for precision work.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

personally i'm not a fan of that h2cmr, i like the p4 fine and that msr reticle.

as for the turrets i really like the mtc turrets, while some times it's nice to make those .1 mil adjustments, i like not having to count clicks 1 at a time, counting by 10 is nice, and if you have to click over and go back 1 click, so what, i find myself needing 33 clicks or something along those lines, so being able to feel it every 10th is better than counting by 1. it's also nice in low light because you can feel the clicks, and you can feel when it's on the second rotation.

it's like anything else, some guys like ford, some like gmc, blonds, brunettes etc.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Is there a pic of the MSR ret. anywhere? I have been looking but cant for the life of me find it. I have a couple of scopes on order with scott that have the h2cmr. I miss the dots and lines of the gen2 and i constantly find myself counting with the P4 fine. no mistaken dots! the finer wind hold would be super too from center out to the first mill

I wish i could get one with the old single turn 13mill adj. knob. In my opinion single turn is where its at.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Glen you will really like the H2CMR. Great reticle for any sorts of holds.

 

[cali_tz]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matt33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having tried them both, I much prefer the standard double turn turrets to the MTC's. I have a P4f reticle which is nearly perfect except for the lack of .5 mil hash marks between the cross-hair and first full mil. </div></div>

I don't think I've ever noticed the lack of the .5mil hash mark! Well I am usually shooting at some steel and I favor or hold left with the crosshair, and for more hold, I am at the first hash or more ... but I would agree why not put the first half hash mark in there. Might serve to keep that central aim area as uncluttered as possible.?

 

[Aries64]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcvibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey rob, do they make a reticle that is a little thinner than the p4F? I dont think its too thick but I tend to shoot alot at higher power and hate when the reticle takes over the target. </div></div>
The only reticle available (<span style="font-style: italic">or that <span style="text-decoration: underline">was</span> available</span>) in the PMII that has thinner line widths than the P4F is the (Premier Reticles' patented) Gen 2 XR. Unfortunately, the Gen 2 XR hasn't been available in new S & B PMIIs' for several years now, and as such Gen 2 X-equipped PMIIs' command a premium. The default rotation direction for S & B and other European scopes is CW (Clockwise). If you want a CCW (Counterclockwise) turret version and find a Seller who knows what a PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR CCW is worth you're usually looking at $3,500.00+.

Courtesy of Premier Reticles, below is a PDF of the PMII 4-16X / PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Premier Reticles PMII 4-16X / PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR PDF:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Premier Reticles PMII P4F PDF:</span></span>

Keith

 

[Aries64]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a pic of the MSR ret. anywhere? I have been looking but cant for the life of me find it. I have a couple of scopes on order with scott that have the h2cmr.</div></div>
Glen, I don't have any actual through-the-scope MSR photos of my own, but below are five (5) through-the-scope photos through an MSR-equipped PMII 5-25X courtesy of the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">FinnAccuracy.com</span></span> web site. If you click on <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PMII MSR through-the-scope photos</span></span> it will open up a window to the FinnAccuracy web site page with fourteen (14) additional PMII 5-25X MSR through-the-scope photos.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Through-the-scope photo of PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle at 25X:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Through-the-scope photo of PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle at 20X:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Through-the-scope photo of PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle at 15X:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Through-the-scope photo of PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle at 10X:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Through-the-scope photo of PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle at 5X:</span></span>

According to FinnAccuracy's MSR Reticle Dataheet, the main line width of the MSR is .05 MIL/0.18", which is between S & B's PMII P4 (0.24") and P4F (.130") PDFs'.

For visual reference, below are four (4) JPEGs' of the MSR PDF at 25X, 15X, and 5X power. The first JPEG is of the MSR 25X and shows the reticle line widths. The PDF is courtesy of <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">FinnAccuracy.com</span></span>.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PDF of PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle showing line widths (25X):</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PDF of PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle at 25X:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PDF of PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle at 15X:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PDF of PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle at 5X:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PMII 5-25X MSR Reticle Data Sheet:</span></span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I miss the dots and lines of the gen2 and i constantly find myself counting with the P4 fine. no mistaken dots! the finer wind hold would be super too from center out to the first mill</div></div>
Theres' always the Gen 2 XR, but as I'm sure you know the Gen 2 XR hasn't been available in new S & B PMIIs' for several years now, and as such Gen 2 X-equipped PMIIs' command a premium. Find a Seller with a CCW version who knows what its' worth and you're usually looking at $3,500.00+.

I know that some people don't like the Gen 2 XR, saying that the (.5 MIL) hashes are larger than the (MIL) Dots so they confuse the MIL and the .5 MIL points. What - hows' that? Its' a very simple system - a Dot is a MIL and a Hash is a .5 MIL. I know people are wired differently, but IMHO if someone can't tell the difference between a Dot and a Hash then they should get their eyes checked, or possibly stop handling firearms altogether.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wish i could get one with the old single turn 13mill adj. knob. In my opinion single turn is where its at. </div></div>
There are actually quite a few PMIIs' that are available with the 13 MIL ST (Single Turn) Elevation Turret (the 3-12X 50 and 3-12X 50 P, the 4-16X 42 LP, 4-16X 50 P, AND 4-16X 50 LP). You can also get the 13 MIL ST with MTC Elevation Turret on the 4-16X 42 P/MTC and 4-16X 42 LP/MTC. However, all PMII 5-25Xs' are DT, as neither the 27.3 MIL travel of the 0.1 MIL Turret version nor the 65 MOA travel of the .25 MOA Turret version can be accomodated in a ST Turret.

Hope this helps.


Keith

 

[Eric B.]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

Just get a scope with a Horus LR reticle and be done with it.
Constantly adjusting knobs eventually causes the adjustments to wear, degrading accuracy of adjustment.

 

[JByrd]

Re: Schmidt & Bender Turret Opinion

horus!!!why didnt i thinka that???