Scope for FN SPR...

[moosemeat]

Fn SPR 308. Goal is to turn this rifles optic back into a jack of all rifle.
Requirements- Budget $1500 to $1700 MAX
1) FFP
2) Mils
3) minimum mag of 4x at the highest
4) maximum mag of at least 18x
That's the easy stuff. Now the harder stuff
5) zero stop
6) dead nuts turrets
7) good low light performance
8) tree reticle

I am strongly leaning towards the Bushnell DMR 3. I have checked out the leupold Mk 5 and do not like the windage turret. I have also looked thru the Vortex Razor gen 2 and it would be in the running except I hate the color, especially on a all black rifle. What else should i be looking at? I'm also willing to look used and wait for to find the right scope.
Burris XTR 3 is also in the running.

 

[Birddog6424]

The XTR3 is a great choice. As is the MK5.

 

[moosemeat]

Has anyone done a direct with pictures review of the XTR3 like BigJimFish? I cant find one. I really would like to see how it stacks up vs the MK5.
I have shot the MK5 a little and love the depth of field it provides and the resolution seems pretty good. The one I looked thru tho had horrible CA. Also not a fan of the windage turret on the mk5. The line for the locator is in a weird position and basically requires you to come off the rifle for adjustments.

 

[moosemeat]

I've also heard the XTR 3 reticles are about useless at lower magnification. Any verification on that?

 

[wapiti16b]

I went through this dilemma for the same rifle and the GEN II Razor is what I went with , if the color is more important than performance so be it!, I have an all black SPR and a stainless barrel matte black receiver PBR in a sponge job McMillan stock and I swap between the two. The GEN II has been flawless so far despite the color, the reticle is everything I need and the illumination is great, 18x is about all I need for the 30Hate and suffices for my 7SAW PBR build. My only experiences with Bushy's and Leupys have been with hunting scopes and Leupold was the better of the two FWTW!. I'm not a Vortex Fan Boy by any means, my Swarovski spotter beats any Vortex spotter I've used. I too am on a fixed budget as far as scopes are concerned and the GEN II is what I decided on four years ago!, YMMV!

 

[Neurotic]

If weight is a concern: Trijicon Tenmile 3-18

 

[stello1001]

You gotta look at the offerings from the following:

Tract toric
Sig tango6 second gen
Athlon cronus
Leupold mk5
Bushnell dmr
Burris xtr3

 

[StrayDog]

I'll vote for the DMR3

 

[cornhusker86]

https://www.eurooptic.com/Vortex-Razor-HD-LHT-45-22x50-FFP-XLR-2-MRAD-Riflescope-RZR-42202.aspx

If you're LEO, current or former mil. you qualify for Vortex's discount program. That knocks about 300 off that price.

 

[moosemeat]

Little back story- this is my main rifle. I have had it for 7ish years and in that time it has won local F T/R matches that I shoot every month. Its hunted deer and killed coyotes. Its won benchrest best group side matches. For 99% of that time it had a Bushnell DMR 1st gen on it. I was offered a trade for a sightron s3 8-32x56 and some cash my way and took it. I have a dedicated hunting rifle but litterly have never seen a game animal when carrying it. Te sightron is amazing.... on the range only, which I new going in, but this rifle is what I want to carry every where.
Scopes I have shot through-
Kahles- to expensive
March- to expensive
Leupold VX3(owned) and Mk4(dinosaur)
Leupold mk5- I would have to work with the windage knob to get used to the indicator location and the ones I have shot all have excessive CA.
Vortex- pretty much every one. The only ones I would be interested in are the Razor gen 2 and Razor LHS
Arthlon- I live 60 minutes from their office. I've been in there and own a scope from them on my service rifle. Cronus would be in the running.
Bushnell- once again I have shot behind a metric ton of these. HDMR, XRS, ERS. I lean heavily towards a DMR gen 3 because I've always thought my gen 1 was amazing. Just wanted zero stop, illumination and 10 mil turrets.
Burris- only looked through a xtr2 8-40 and was NOT impressed. But the XTR3 is definitely in the running.

Maybe somebody in NE Ks has a XTR3 I could meet with and take a look through sometime.

 

[Naaman]

If weight is a concern: Trijicon Tenmile 3-18

I'm kind of amazed how they packed all of what they did into 24 oz...

 

[moosemeat]

Searching reviews of the Tenmile now.
Funny how the list is growing....

Tenmile is out. To low of elevation.

 

[moosemeat]

Short list
Burris XTR3 3-18
Bushnell DMR3 3.5-21
Razor gen 2 3-18 and 4.5x27 or what ever it is.
Leupold mk

Wild card
Athlon cronus
Tract toric

 

[m1match]

The Leupold Mk5 would still be my top choice. Although some of their scopes are nice, my knock on Bushnell is that they change models so often that their scopes don't hold resale value. My other knock on Bushnell is on the Bushnell scopes that I have had, the zero stop is an abomination that is too complicated and hard to set.

I recently traded for an Athlon Ares ETR 3-18x50 APRS6 and I have to say that for a $900 scope, it seems like a pretty good value. Turrets are crisp, zero stop is simple to set, reticle is pretty good.

 

[Long Range 338]

I’ve had the scopes on the short list except the Bushnell. I never could warm up to the Vortex and ended up getting rid of it. I’ve got a Mark V and it’s fine but it would be my last choice, I’m probably going to sell it off towards a scope I will enjoy. The XTR3 is a very nice scope in all around performance and is really only lacking for illumination.

 

[moosemeat]

Long Range 338- can you give reasons for your decisions? The Leupold definitely has some quirks I would need to train out. Also the Leupold with Illumination is out of the price range unless I got a good deal used and the reticles arent my personal favorite.

 

[FuhQ]

Have you looked into the Nightforce options? Or USO?

 

[Long Range 338]

Long Range 338- can you give reasons for your decisions? The Leupold definitely has some quirks I would need to train out. Also the Leupold with Illumination is out of the price range unless I got a good deal used and the reticles arent my personal favorite.

So first off, all of your options will work its just personal preference.

The Vortex was good but I preferred the Sig Tango 6 - turrets are more tactile on the Vortex, no argument.

The Leupold I just can't seem to warm up to it because of the quirks I guess. 35mm tube, 12.5 mils per rev, goofy windage, and the TMR reticle just doesn't trip my trigger... The scope works fine, I just prefer my other options I currently own.

The XTR3 feels like a NF killer to me. Slick design, good turrets, good reticles for my taste, glass is very nice. I don't know how to quantify it, it just feels right? I like the way it feels/operates and the view thru the optic is always pleasing to my eye. Its always a pleasure to shoot whatever rifle it is on. Downside for the XTR3 is the lack of illumination but this isn't a feature I use so it has never bothered me.

 

[moosemeat]

Have you looked into the Nightforce options? Or USO?

I have. The Nightforce SHV F1 seem to be to little for to much. The NXS8 seem to be all in on mag range with at the sacrifice of optical quality. USO hasn't been on my radar in about 10 years.
I'm all for trying things out of the box, but being one who wants to see before believing combined with living in semi rural Kansas makes that difficult. I can go try a bushnell, nightforce, leupold in KC, but trying to find a Tract Toric or USO maybe difficult.

 

[m1match]

I'm going to have to take a look at the Burris XTR3 based on the positive comments here. I've never looked at one before and I might have to retract my earlier choice of the Leupold Mk5HD.

I would not consider USO. They haven't made a competitive scope in many years unfortunately, and what they have not doesn't look like anything special.

Are there any precision rifle matches local to you? I'd recommend going to one because people are pretty friendly and will let you look through and play with their optics.

 

[fdkay]

I have a Bushy 4.5-18 lrtsi. I love the scope. The lrhs would be a solid choice, however, keep in mind the minimum focus distance. I prefer something that will focus closer for hunting.
Primary arms PLX series are solid, made in Japan.
A Tract 4-20 would certainly be worth a look.

 

[moosemeat]

I'm pretty sure I could run up to GAP ot the Bushnell outlet this weekend and take a look at the LRTSi. Need to google and find a place with the XTR3.

 

[fdkay]

I'm pretty sure I could run up to GAP ot the Bushnell outlet this weekend and take a look at the LRTSi. Need to google and find a place with the XTR3.

Lrtsi has been discontinued.
This is an awesome scope:

Bushnell LRHS-2 4.5-18 x 44 G2H reticle

<p>BACK IN STOCK!!</p>

www.gaprecision.net

 

[moosemeat]

I actually looked thru the LRTS back when I got my DMR and thought the glass was slightly better but wanted the extra adjustment of the DMR and it was actually being discontinued so it was cheaper. So if the LRHS is as good or better its definitely in contention.

 

[Neurotic]

The Leupold Mk5 would still be my top choice. Although some of their scopes are nice, my knock on Bushnell is that they change models so often that their scopes don't hold resale value. My other knock on Bushnell is on the Bushnell scopes that I have had, the zero stop is an abomination that is too complicated and hard to set.

I recently traded for an Athlon Ares ETR 3-18x50 APRS6 and I have to say that for a $900 scope, it seems like a pretty good value. Turrets are crisp, zero stop is simple to set, reticle is pretty good.

The Bushnell and Ares zero stops are nearly identical. They're both plates that abuts a the fixed stop, and is secured with 2or 3 set screws. Both designs are nice as they allow the zero stop location be set independently of the turret cap's zero position. Other competitors, like the XTR2 & 3, use the turret cap for the zero stop so the cap's zero is the zero stop position which prohibits dialing under zero.

To the OP, your scope list has a wide variety of form factors/attributes. If you value size or weight the choice may be more obvious.

I have a 3.3-18 XTR3 and a 4.5-29 Cronus, and use them for different applications due to size. The Cronus is ~5 oz heavier with a larger objective and taller turrets.

 

[fdkay]

The Bushnell and Ares zero stops are nearly identical. They're both plates that abuts a the fixed stop, and is secured with 2or 3 set screws. Both designs are nice as they allow the zero stop location be set independently of the turret cap's zero position. Other competitors, like the XTR2 & 3, use the turret cap for the zero stop so the cap's zero is the zero stop position which prohibits dialing under zero.

To the OP, your scope list has a wide variety of form factors/attributes. If you value size or weight the choice may be more obvious.

I have a 3.3-18 XTR3 and a 4.5-29 Cronus, and use them for different applications due to size. The Cronus is ~5 oz heavier with a larger objective and taller turrets.

The XTR stops do not prohibit you from dialing under zero any more than any other zero stop.

 

[moosemeat]

I give litterly zero shits about size or weight. I am wanting a set of specs that offer me the best optic for the money.
I tend to like uncapped locking turrets that are large enough to be useful. I want the scope to have a objective large enough to be useful at last hunting light. I really am trying to keep a open mind.

 

[Neurotic]

The XTR stops do not prohibit you from dialing under zero any more than any other zero stop.

How do you figure?

With the Cronus/Bushy, I can set the zero stop wherever I want; I typically set it 1 MRAD under zero. It's pretty simple, find zero, dial 1 MRAD down, set zero stop, affix cap at 9 MRAD.

If I follow the Burris manual, there is no dialing under zero. The attached step fixes zero the "lowest" position that can be dialed. If I lift the cap slightly when setting zero, it disengages the ZS. I can dial under zero, but travel is stopped as the cap wedges itself into the turret housing; this then also stops rotation somewheres around 4ish MRAD under zero.

 

[Neurotic]

I give litterly zero shits about size or weight. I am wanting a set of specs that offer me the best optic for the money.
I tend to like uncapped locking turrets that are large enough to be useful. I want the scope to have a objective large enough to be useful at last hunting light. I really am trying to keep a open kind.

Good for you, I guess.

Since, your requirements seem to be shifting, also look at the new Sightron and the G2 Razor.
https://libertyoptics.com/contents/en-us/d8.html
https://libertyoptics.com/contents/en-us/d128.html

 

[fdkay]

How do you figure?

With the Cronus/Bushy, I can set the zero stop wherever I want; I typically set it 1 MRAD under zero. It's pretty simple, find zero, dial 1 MRAD down, set zero stop, affix cap at 9 MRAD.

If I follow the Burris manual, there is no dialing under zero. The attached step fixes zero the "lowest" position that can be dialed. If I lift the cap slightly when setting zero, it disengages the ZS. I can dial under zero, but travel is stopped as the cap wedges itself into the turret housing; this then also stops rotation somewheres around 4ish MRAD under zero.

Let's see.
Find zero, then turn turret 1 mil below your zero. Set zero stop. Done.
It's the same thing, they just use the turret cap instead of the floating washer.
It is definitely a bit of a pain and not as simple as other systems, but it isn't that difficult.
@Birddog6424

 

[Neurotic]

Let's see.
Find zero, then turn turret 1 mil below your zero. Set zero stop. Done.
It's the same thing, they just use the turret cap instead of the floating washer.
It is definitely a bit of a pain and not as simple as other systems, but it isn't that difficult.
@Birddog6424

Doing that puts your zero at the 1 MRAD cap position.

Using a pinned cap to set the zero stop is a fairly crude design. And not exclusive to Burris... the JOL zero stop is the same way.

Edit: the Cronus 1-6 also uses a pinned cap for the ZS.

 

[RUTGERS95]

xtr

 

[Birddog6424]

The XTRII and XTRIII both use a mechanical zero stop. If you set it by getting your zero, pressing the cap all the way down and tightening the screws, you won't be able to go below zero.

I have had people tell me that they could line up the zero and not press the cap down into place, tighten the set screws and be able to dial below zero, but I've never tried it.

 

[Neurotic]

The XTRII and XTRIII both use a mechanical zero stop. If you set it by getting your zero, pressing the cap all the way down and tightening the screws, you won't be able to go below zero.

I have had people tell me that they could line up the zero and not press the cap down into place, tighten the set screws and be able to dial below zero, but I've never tried it.

Yeah, this will put the actual stopping position somewhere around 4 MRAD under zero. The stop is then when the cap jams against the turret housing. This is an unsealed area, so any dirt/dust/debris will help grind/crunch the turret cap to a stop. This feels like mechanical abuse.

 

[Birddog6424]

Yeah, this will put the actual stopping position somewhere around 4 MRAD under zero. The stop is then when the cap jams against the turret housing. This is an unsealed area, so any dirt/dust/debris will help grind/crunch the turret cap to a stop. This feels like mechanical abuse.

I agree. It doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Burris has something releasing here at Shot that will legitimately allow you to set zero and dial below it.

 

[fdkay]

Doing that puts your zero at the 1 MRAD cap position.

Using a pinned cap to set the zero stop is a fairly crude design. And not exclusive to Burris... the JOL zero stop is the same way.

Edit: the Cronus 1-6 also uses a pinned cap for the ZS.

How do you figure? Rotate it to whatever position you want, push it down and snug the screws.

 

[Neurotic]

How do you figure? Rotate it to whatever position you want, push it down and snug the screws.

I don't think you understand. When that is done, that sets the zero stop at that position. There is no dialing under that position. So, it's not possible to dial under zero. The best this scope offers is to set zero at some position under the actual zero.

Edit: to add clarity, either you set the zero stop at zero, or you don't use the zero stop. Those are the options.

 

[fdkay]

I don't think you understand. When that is done, that sets the zero stop at that position. There is no dialing under that position. So, it's not possible to dial under zero. The best this scope offers is to set zero at some position under the actual zero.

Edit: to add clarity, either you set the zero stop at zero, or you don't use the zero stop. Those are the options.

That is true. Which is exactly what you're doing when you set the cronus below your actual zero.
It is called a zero stop for a reason. When you set it, you can't dial below it.
Whether it is your actual zero or 1 mil below your zero.
I own both. Personally, I don't see the utility of setting below your zero, but I zero at 100 yards, but I did explore setting it below the actual zero.

 

[Neurotic]

That is true. Which is exactly what you're doing when you set the cronus below your actual zero.
It is called a zero stop for a reason. When you set it, you can't dial below it.
Whether it is your actual zero or 1 mil below your zero.
I own both. Personally, I don't see the utility of setting below your zero, but I zero at 100 yards, but I did explore setting it below the actual zero.

Then you don't understand how the Cronus/Bushy zero stop works... It's a stop, that doesn't need be only a "zero stop".

It's a disk that can be positioned independently of the cap. It can be set to any position. So, one can find zero, dial down 1MRAD, set the zero stop disk position, then install the cap at 9 MRAD. Now, zero is at the cap's zero and th zero stop is 1 MRAD under.

This independent setup is useful if you don't shoot the same round/load all the time.

 

[fdkay]

Then you don't understand how the Cronus/Bushy zero stop works... It's a stop, that doesn't need be only a "zero stop".

It's a disk that can be positioned independently of the cap. It can be set to any position. So, one can find zero, dial down 1MRAD, set the zero stop disk position, then install the cap at 9 MRAD. Now, zero is at the cap's zero and th zero stop is 1 MRAD under.

This independent setup is useful if you don't shoot the same round/load all the time.

I understand exactly how it works. You can do the same thing with the XTR it just isn't as easy.
I'm not going to convince you, so I'm checking out.

 

[Neurotic]

I understand exactly how it works. You can do the same thing with the XTR it just isn't as easy.
I'm not going to convince you, so I'm checking out.

You literally can't. The XTR cap and stop positions are fixed relative to each other; since the stop is built into the cap. These are independent settings on the Cronus/Bushy versions... Jeebus.

 

[fdkay]

You literally can't. The XTR cap and stop positions are fixed relative to each other; since the stop is built into the cap. These are independent settings on the Cronus/Bushy versions... Jeebus.

Once you have the stop set on the cronus/Bushy scopes, you can't dial beneath it.
Once you set the Burris, you can't dial beneath it.
You can set any of them wherever the fuck you want to.
Do you want it 1 mil below the actual zero? Fine. Of course, then it is just a stop, not a zero stop.
Do you want it to read zero? Fine.
Do you want it to read 9? Fine.
You can do it on either.
We may be talking past each other here.

 

[Neurotic]

Once you have the stop set on the cronus/Bushy scopes, you can't dial beneath it.
Once you set the Burris, you can't dial beneath it.
You can set any of them wherever the fuck you want to.
Do you want it 1 mil below the actual zero? Fine. Of course, then it is just a stop, not a zero stop.
Do you want it to read zero? Fine.
Do you want it to read 9? Fine.
You can do it on either.
We may be talking past each other here.

Yeah, you missed my point... it's not to dial under the stop (not possible), it's to set the stop under zero to aloe dialing down.

But you cannot set the XTR stop position anywhere, it only works at the cap's indicated zero position.

 

[fdkay]

Yeah, you missed my point... it's not to dial under the stop (not possible), it's to set the stop under zero to aloe dialing down.

But you cannot set the XTR stop position anywhere, it only works at the cap's indicated zero position.

The xtr is a simple cap, with a post that drives the mechanism.
It is a simple matter to loosen the grubscrews, raise the cap slightly, if required, tighten the crews, dial down to 1 mil below your zero, loosen the grubscrews and set the zero stop, on whatever number your heart desires.
Your stop is now set 1 mil below your zero.

 

[Neurotic]

The xtr is a simple cap, with a post that drives the mechanism.
It is a simple matter to loosen the grubscrews, raise the cap slightly, if required, tighten the crews, dial down to 1 mil below your zero, loosen the grubscrews and set the zero stop, on whatever number your heart desires.
Your stop is now set 1 mil below your zero.

You're missing the point.... Doing what you describe just jams the cap into the turret housing. That doesn't actually use the zero stop pin. And, if I recall correctly, it cannot be set very close to 1 MRAD under since the turret pitch isn't coarse enough to raise the cap elevation that quickly.

 

[fdkay]

You're missing the point.... Doing what you describe just jams the cap into the turret housing. That doesn't actually use the zero stop pin. And, if I recall correctly, it cannot be set very close to 1 MRAD under since the turret pitch isn't coarse enough to raise the cap elevation that quickly.

I know how it works and I know that you can set it below your zero.
However, after thinking about it, I don't know if you can go a full mil.
There is room though to set it below.

 

[TriggerJerk!]

Just another thought....I have a SWFA 3-15 on my FNSPR and I am totally happy with it. Good glass and spot-on knobs, but no zero stop. YMMV but I liked it better than Bushnell or Burris offerings in the less than 1500 price range. And I like good glass, but it has never left that rifle.

Given your specs I would watch Eurooptic and Milehighshooting for dealer demos on a NF ATACR.

PS. FNSPR’s are the best bang for buck to date; wish I would have bought two

 

[Neurotic]

I know how it works and I know that you can set it below your zero.
However, after thinking about it, I don't know if you can go a full mil.
There is room though to set it below.

No offense, but you should pull the elevation cap to see the design's simplicity. It's better than the Veracity design that limits to just less than one revolution. But it's less sophisticated than the Bushy/Athlon design.

The JOL version offsets the pi location to allowing dialing down a few tenths of a MRAD. I personally would've preferred if Burris would've done that. It doesn't stop at zero, but it's a good compromise.

 

[fdkay]

No offense, but you should pull the elevation cap to see the design's simplicity. It's better than the Veracity design that limits to just less than one revolution. But it's less sophisticated than the Bushy/Athlon design.

The JOL version offsets the pi location to allowing dialing down a few tenths of a MRAD. I personally would've preferred if Burris would've done that. It doesn't stop at zero, but it's a good compromise.

I've pulled, and I've set it.
I own a Bushy 4.5-18 lrtsi, a cronus 4.5-29 gen 2, an xtr ii 4-20 and several others that don't have zero stops.
It is a simple design. Not perfect, but way better than the shims on the pst 1 and better than the goat fuck on the venom and strike eagle.
I much prefer the bushy/athlon type.

 

[moosemeat]

Good for you, I guess.

Since, your requirements seem to be shifting, also look at the new Sightron and the G2 Razor.
https://libertyoptics.com/contents/en-us/d8.html
https://libertyoptics.com/contents/en-us/d128.html

I wasn't trying to be rude. I have carried this rifle 10 mile in a day thru the woods when it weight 18 pounds. I live in Kansas. Weight is of no concern. I'm a big fat bastard. Best weigh for me to save weight would be skip the extra plate.
I was unaware of the new sightron and will have to look at its specs.
I really am starting to think the Gen 2 Razor or hunt down a used ATACR.

I will try to get out to a PRS match and see what I can see. I may even volunteer to RO.