Scope "goes up" when shooting - why?

[Jayjay1]

Hey fellas,
after almost every shot my scope (and rifle) are aiming high to the sky.

I´m shooting from a bench with a bipod at the front and with a "sand" (kind of a handcraft granulate) bag at the rear.

After the shot, or let´s say while the recoil works, I´m coming down in the back (I think).
So what am I doing wrong?

 

[Gee Kay]

weigh down your 50cal with sandbags ?

 

[Jayjay1]

@Tono:

I have a new mantra now:
"I´m a brick wall, I´m a .... "

The good thing is, my rifle doesn´t move sideways, so I may lie straight behind it.


Thanks a lot man, good info shared there.

Well, here´s my point so.

I had always a hard time to get my head straight up behind the scope, because that damn stock was in the way.
Searching around because of that, I saw a video from "mark & sam after work" where he explained that he is placing his butt stock on his collar bone - and not in the shoulder pocket - to fix that "tilted-head" problem, which drove me nuts.

So, that worked great for me, but maybe now a part of my rifle-jumps-upwards because I can´t weaken my collar bone.

What would you guys say?
Back to the shoulder pocket and the tilted head again?

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

May want to reconsider your scope ring or stock setup. Adjustable but pads and check rests are a thing.

 

[Jayjay1]

Yeah, definitely.
My scope sits a bit higher than in average.

My head has more the shape of a football, not very streamlined.

My Kazaksthanian shooting buddy, with obviously Mongolian anchestors, has no cheeks at all, it´s more the opposite, he has craters where I have some meat.
I can´t shoot his rifle, no way, I´ve tried it several times.
His scope is mounted so low, I can´t even see a piece of glass.
But he rings the bell with it any time.

 

[seansmd]

The collar bone and cheek weld is correct, and the videos above don't suggest otherwise. What the videos are saying is your body should absorb and diffuse the energy. This means centering the butt stock on the collar bone is ok but your muscle groups should be relaxed and not creating the brick wall.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

OP, are you drinking again?

 

[chevy_man]

Your stock isn't setup correctly.

Adjust length of pull, cheek height, may need to adjust the butt up/down/cant. Scope height if you can (if you're running a 56mm objective on a fat barrel with a 20 moa rail you're pretty well stuck with high/extra high rings).

A properly adjusted and fitted stock will fall into place and be comfy. Don't contort yourself to the gun, make it work around you.

 

[candyx]

Soft shoulder sometimes leads to scope ring followed by whats dripping on my face ?

 

[GotCox]

Soft shoulder sometimes leads to scope ring followed by whats dripping on my face ?

That isnt caused by soft shoulder, that is caused by poor rifle setup and getting the scope set far to close to the shooters face.

 

[Jayjay1]

Well, I do have a fat 56mm objective scope with a bit higher scope rings and a 20MOA rail.
Had a lower setup before, didn´t work for me, so I changed it just a week ago.
Been to the range once, worked better for me then before.

LOP should be fine, I do use a KRG Bravo stock and have adjusted the LOP with the trigger-to-elbow method (iykwim).

With the higher mount I noticed that I can´t rise the cheek pad as high as I maybe want it.
The bolt of my Tikka is hitting the cheek pad with his back side when cycled.
So I do rise the cheek pad just so high, that the bolt can cycle free.

Was wondering if I should change that, but wouldn´t cut off my cheek pad at the front.

Loading the bipod is a bit a pita sometimes.
I do use a Atlas BT10 with spinning feet and we do have slick concrete or smooth benches at the range.
I tried some anti-slip-mat underneath, but now the feet do spin on that.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

There is a long action/tikka cheek pad with a cutout for the bolt. Should have come with the stock.

Its really not that complicated, you should be comfortable behind it with the rifle in the pocket and cheek resting on the cheeck rest if you do it with your eyes closed when you open them you should be looking through your scope at the right distance.

If your scope is even setup correctly. At this point im thinging its a combination of equipment and technique.

 

[seansmd]

I would say get off the bench and on your belly when confirming your contribution, proper setup is more challenging of the bench at many ranges.

 

[308pirate]

LOP should be fine, I do use a KRG Bravo stock and have adjusted the LOP with the trigger-to-elbow method (iykwim).

1. The trigger to elbow method is just a rough starting point for LOP adjustments
2. Stock length of pull and scope eye relief are not the same thing. They are interrelated, but not interchangable
3. Get a buttplate height/cant adjuster from KRG. You're welcome
4. Get the KRG plate that lets the comb (aka cheekpiece) adjust side to side. You're welcome

 

[candyx]

I would say get off the bench and on your belly when confirming your contribution, proper setup is more challenging of the bench at many ranges.

65" inch waist I still need to put the rifle on a bench while shooting prone.

 

[VSki]

I think that this may be the video you are referring to...

He talks about using your chin against the stock instead of your cheek and canting his head for adjustment. Wouldn’t inconsistencies behind the scope lead to POI inconsistencies from a change in parallax?

 

[wade2big]

He talks about using your chin against the stock instead of your cheek and canting his head for adjustment. Wouldn’t inconsistencies behind the scope lead to POI inconsistencies from a change in parallax?

Only on the internet.

 

[Maxduty]

First, I'd mitigate jumping at the muzzle. Might need a brake, or a suppressor. It sounds as though your fundamentals are good, so it's the gun. Just something to look at.

 

[Dthomas3523]

First, I'd mitigate jumping at the muzzle. Might need a brake, or a suppressor. It sounds as though your fundamentals are good, so it's the gun. Just something to look at.

If fundamentals were good, the rifle would be moving more straight back than up.

 

[Dthomas3523]

He talks about using your chin against the stock instead of your cheek and canting his head for adjustment. Wouldn’t inconsistencies behind the scope lead to POI inconsistencies from a change in parallax?

No, not if A: you have good edge right edge clarity in the optic and B: if parallax is dialed out.

Also, cheek and jaw/chin welds are acceptable and typically have a purpose for each.

Cheek: if you are going to be behind the optic extended periods of time. You’ll want the weight of your head supported by the stock. Have to be mindful of the butt of the rifle being pushed down and away from you head. In a right handed shooter this would push the muzzle high and left.

Chin/jaw: used when you won’t be on the rifle for extended periods. You hold the weight of your head with your neck/shoulder muscles. Allows you to keep your head straight and impart less movement onto the butt of the rifle. Cannot be maintained for long periods as you will fatigue from the weight of your head.

 

[Steel head]

65" inch waist I still need to put the rifle on a bench while shooting prone.

Ok
That’s funny!

 

[VSki]

No, not if A: you have good edge right edge clarity in the optic and B: if parallax is dialed out.

Also, cheek and jaw/chin welds are acceptable and typically have a purpose for each.

Cheek: if you are going to be behind the optic extended periods of time. You’ll want the weight of your head supported by the stock. Have to be mindful of the butt of the rifle being pushed down and away from you head. In a right handed shooter this would push the muzzle high and left.

Chin/jaw: used when you won’t be on the rifle for extended periods. You hold the weight of your head with your neck/shoulder muscles. Allows you to keep your head straight and impart less movement onto the butt of the rifle. Cannot be maintained for long periods as you will fatigue from the weight of your head.

Edge to edge clarity, that makes a lot of sense. It would place your eye in the same position behind the ocular lens regardless of chin/cheek.

Thanks for the info!

 

[VSki]

Only on the internet.

 

[Jayjay1]

...
3. Get a buttplate height/cant adjuster from KRG. You're welcome
...

Well, thanks so.

Will it help against muzzle rise when I´ll take the buttplate higher?

 

[308pirate]

Well, thanks so.

Will it help against muzzle rise when I´ll take the buttplate higher?

It will give you another option to fit the rifle to yourself.

You can't learn this stuff on the internet. You have to do what we did and spend the time and money to learn on the range.

 

[Jayjay1]

It will give you another option to fit the rifle to yourself.

You can't learn this stuff on the internet. You have to do what we did and spend the time and money to learn on the range.

I agree and disagree at the same time.

I don´t try to learn to shoot PR in sitting in front of my PC screen.
But on the other hand it helps a ton if you get a good advice at the right time, especially when you are fighting something and you get stuck.
A little tip can open your eyes and makes you able to make a huge step forward.

Sometimes it is so easy, sometimes it is not.

Just my opinion on this.

 

[Jayjay1]

I have moved the buttpad higher on my rifle. That works for me based on my body/style of shooting/rifle type/bipod height and other factors.

If you have a video camera or smart phone camera, set it up to record you while you are shooting. There are many things that you can learn while reviewing the video. Take notes at the same time so that you can match your shots/groups back to the video. Record in slow motion if you can. Or watch the video with a slow playback. Record different setups on your rifle and you'll see what works and what doesn't.

That´s exactly what I mean.

I´m an IPSC pistol competitor and videotaping and then watching yourself training is an eye-opener there very often.

So why not trying it with PR-shooting?

Would I have come to this conclusion?
Maybe in a year or two.

Thanks Tono!

 

[Steel head]

It will give you another option to fit the rifle to yourself.

You can't learn this stuff on the internet. You have to do what we did and spend the time and money to learn on the range.

This is very true!
Rifle fit is important and takes experience or someone with a good eye and experience to to help you.

 

[PracticalTactical]

Not sure what rifle the Op is using, or more specifically what stock or chassis, but I'm inclined to think about how high the butt pad is relative to the line of bore.

Prone style stocks place the butt pad high, while hunting rifles = standing position ergos place the butt very low. This low butt plate causes the rifle to tilt up when shooting, and you'd really have to cheek it from a bench to overcome that.

So a high butt prone stock has your shoulder placed more in line with the axis of recoil and that keeps the muzzle down. A Cadex has the butt about as high as I've ever seen.

I once knew a TR match shooter who passed away about 10 years ago who had some kind of funky stock which for just this reason placed the barrel smack in the middle of the butt plate with sights up high to compensate. He was a hell of a shooter, but the rifle did look odd.

 

[Jayjay1]

So, I´m shooting a Tikka CTR in 6.5 CM in a KRG Bravo stock.
Scope is a Steiner M7Xi which is riding high (because of the 56mm objective and lens caps).

Shooting prone from a bed, the bipod rests on a small wall in front of that bed, which has the exact same height.

Yesterday I dropped the bipod, to try something else, and shot resting on my range bag in the front.
The groups where shrinking immediately about 50%.

Thinking about that for a while since then and came up with the fact that the beds on our range are not totally stable, in fact they move just a bit under recoil.
So, when the bipod rests on the wall and the rear bag and me are resting on the bed, might this cause such problems?
The beds are quite short, so that my feet will hang off in the back when I will put the bipod on it, but that´s next what I want to try.

 

[CygnusX1]

How thick is your shooting mat ?
Your rifle's butt could be sinking into the mat during the shot......even if supported by a rear bag

 

[Jayjay1]

Well, might be a point.

The mat is from the club, as the beds are, it is approx. 1.5" thick.

Sinking in, thought about how hard/stiff the rear bag should be?
Mine is more on the weak side.

 

[CygnusX1]

Well, might be a point.

The mat is from the club, as the beds are, it is approx. 1.5" thick.

Sinking in, thought about how hard/stiff the rear bag should be?
Mine is more on the weak side.

If the mat is thick then the shooting bag will sink a bit during the shot so it does not matter if its a hard or soft bag.

Try with a thin mat to rule out this variable.

One inch of saging on the butt end equals something at the target end