Rifle Scopes Scopes Will Not Keep Zero, Help!

[Coglione]

I am having issues with all my scopes not keeping zero and they have been going on for years. While I am not into precision rifle as I have too much going on to do it right and the details are just not interesting to me, especially how expensive the equipment can be in light that the longest ranges I have to shoot are 25 yard indoor or 200y outdoor this seems the place to be to learn about this sort of thing.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the scopes I have from mid grade Leupold, Bushnell, Vortex, Nikon or Primary Arms to more mundane no name generics that came with some old cheap guns I enjoy shooting as they always shoot to their accuracy expectations. If my gun will shoot 1.5 MOA it always shoots 1-1.5MOA and so forth just that over time it may shoot 1.5 MOA a foot to the left or right on a different range session. What I mean is on the same range session the zero stays to wherever the gun is shooting and prints that same MOA consistently in the same place. If it starts off 1 MOA group 1 foot to the left it keeps shooting like that until I re-zero it, and that lasts a range session or two or three until it's off again in another place which it consistently holds that same range session until I re-zero it. Has been happening for years and it's very annoying to have to keep re-zeroing all my optics! I think I have it narrowed to being a temperature problem in that the temps might affect the scope, rings, mount and different part of the gun differently because I have airguns I shoot in mild/mid temps in the back yard (not summer too many people outside, not winter too cold) or a couple guns I just keep at a local indoor range. Actually they have the cheapest scopes I own and they are the ones that are always dead on as long as I keep using the same ammo. So do you have temperature related issues with scope shift? Is it a thing with guns sporting telescopic sights? What do you do to account for it? Do I need to spend even more money on more expensive "better" rings that don't shift as much?

The reason this is a big deal to me is because of all this coronacraziness and riots and looting and whatnot. While as time goes the infection seems overblown and I am no longer afraid of the virus, I am very concerned about possible economic consequences and repercussions, even maybe having to harvest my own meat. I do have hunting license, mostly airgun or rimfire hunt small game as it's the easiest and least time consuming. I really like the Primary Arms or Vortex Strike Eagle scopes especially because they will do everything pretty well but if it came down to having to protect my family and the optic cannot be relied upon to hit where I am aiming then I am thinking of just eliminating optics from my repertoire or just keeping a couple as range toys when I feel like re-zeroing them and rely on open sights for hunting or self defense which are far less precise, but have never given me these accuracy issues.

Thanks for the help.

 

[UpSideDown]

Are these different scopes on different rifles? Different scopes on one rifle? Are you forgetting to set your zero by using tools to adjust your windage/elevation and accidentally turning the knobs to "0"?

Different scopes on different rifles shooting consistent ammo don't move a foot between range sessions unless you drop them on the ground, have loose fasteners or have a human issue.

 

[Steel head]

Interesting.
All the scopes I’ve ran never had any zero issues.
I as a shooter have had zero issues however.

 

[_Windrider_]

Give me an example of a rifle scope combination that you are having an issue with

 

[Coglione]

Yes they are different scopes on different rifles but the scope doesn't change rifle. I don't like to tinker with things too much and leave well enough alone so once the scope is on the rifle there it will stay unless there's a major issue like it doesn't fit. Basically they are all the scopes on all the rifles I have used to shoot at my outdoor rod and gun club and include a
-Ruger SR-556 with a Primary Arms 1-6x24
-PSA 18" 556 upper (not sure) with CMMG lower using a Primary Arms 1-6x24
-PSA 20" 6.5 Grendel Upper with Vortex Strike Eagle on a PSA lower
-BCM 20" upper on a built lower using Primary Arms Platinum 1-8x24
-Henry 44mag with a Vortex Diamondback
-PTR-91 with Nikon Monarch 3

I made sure to pony up extra money for better quality mounts/rings, mostly Leupold or Primary Arms, this I know that you don't want to skimp on rings.

I honestly don't "zero" the scopes but rather I should say I sight them in and leave the turrets alone. Sorry I learned something new.

At some point I took a local gun shop I trust to inspect most of them, make sure to inspect and tighten everything. Several were lapped and done up by a gunsmith. These guns are reasonably taken good care of and always brought in a hard case when taken to the range. I am not one of those crazy OCD people that clean the gun after every shot, polish or rub off every fingerprint and try to keep it looking brand new all the time, but I am not abusive by any means either.

I have never had these issues when I use open sights. I can hit a rabbit pretty easily at 30-50 yards with a 22lr, I can hit a soda can at 100 yards more often than not with 22lr, and I can hit a broken crossbow bolt stuck into the ground at 35-40 yard with a scoped airgun more often than not all shooting offhand. I have rang steel repeatedly when as a guest on a 600 yard range with a friend who lives kind of far away but it's too far for me to do with any regularity. I also rang steel pretty successfully at 700 yards renting guns at Battlefield Vegas. Most importantly the "group" size I get is within expectation for a gun/ammo combo. Now mind you I am not into this super precision stuff and none of the guns I own are really built to that but within the limitations of what I have I can shoot my guns about as well as they can be expected to be shot with the ammo I use for them. I might not hold a candle to the people here but I know my marksmanship is at least pretty good and fundamentals, grip, stance & trigger squeeze are fine. Could I be better sure but the reason I suspected a temperature issue because I don't see it in guns I shoot with open sights, nor do I see it in scoped guns I own that are shot only indoors, or outdoors within a certain narrow range of temps.

 

[308pirate]

Junk equipment + poor shooting skills = random impacts wherever

 

[seanh]

Find a different shooter to confirm. Doing this will at least remove one of the common denominators

 

[Deleted member 10043]

What's going on here?

 

[HUNTERVASSER]

Interested to hear what your set up is. I had an issue with one of my rifles and thought it was the scope but turned out to be the nuts locking in the barrel. It could be a number of items. Its hard to believe that all of those scopes are lemons. Barrel issues, consistent cheek weld, or techniques. You can single out the error once you break down your process and equipment.

 

[Rerun7]

If your having the same issue from all your scopes then it sounds like a shooting issue as opposed to gear. I agree that you should let someone else shoot them or put them in a lead sled, etc.

The chances that all of your scopes are broken is just too small.

 

[Coglione]

Junk equipment + poor shooting skills = random impacts wherever

I think my shooting skills are pretty good if I am getting 1-2 MOA in guns that are supposed to get that with the ammo I am using. As proof I can confirm my impacts are NOT random. Please re-read my initial post. I always am able to group what the gun should consistently but every few range sessions where it prints changes on me and stays there until I re-sight it in. Then it's fine the rest of the range trip and maybe a few more until it's not.

So while I don't have top end super expensive guns that are brag worthy, nor do I have any specialized training I don't think I have junk equipment from the simple fact that I am able to get the theoretical maximum group that is expected out of whatever I am shooting.

In other words I am not having a precision problem; I am having an accuracy problem.

 

[UpSideDown]

These are all lower end scopes and mounts, but nothing that sounds terrible. If it's a consistent issue across these rifles then, without meaning to sound rude, the problem is either the shooter or the installation of the parts. If the scopes have too little or too much torque on the mounts then that's going to be an issue. How you shoot certainly will affect things. Are you shooting off hand? Are you shooting off a bipod and rear bag on a stable bench or prone, with no wind?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

What happened?

 

[Coglione]

I don't think my scopes are broken either again I want to emphasize I am getting the groups the rifle/ammo combo should get. The shooting is always consistent.

I agree with cheek weld and position problems because outdoors the temps change a lot and not only may it affect the gun but I am thinking in addition to big temp changes affecting the gun, scope and rings, wearing a thick, heavy jacket with many layers under in 20'F will probably have a different shooting position than having just a t-shirt in 85'.

I live in Rhode Island so we have very large temperature swings from Summer to Winter and occasionally mid season. It was 90's last week, now it's 45 at sunrise and sunset. I can get pretty cold in winter, not North Dakota bad where my wife's family was from (-30 to 110!) but still significant.

StackPath

Scroll to the bottom of this one:

How to Zero Like a Hero: Sighting In Your Rifle

www.primaryarms.com

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Why didn't you say you live on Road Island to begin with?

 

[Austinjunks]

Not to be a dick but are you zeroing at one distance and shooting at another? Your statements are kind of all over the place, we need more info.

 

[308pirate]

I think my shooting skills are pretty good if I am getting 1-2 MOA in guns that are supposed to get that with the ammo I am using. As proof I can confirm my impacts are NOT random. Please re-read my initial post. I always am able to group what the gun should consistently but every few range sessions where it prints changes on me and stays there until I re-sight it in. Then it's fine the rest of the range trip and maybe a few more until it's not.

So while I don't have top end super expensive guns that are brag worthy, nor do I have any specialized training I don't think I have junk equipment from the simple fact that I am able to get the theoretical maximum group that is expected out of whatever I am shooting.

In other words I am not having a precision problem; I am having an accuracy problem.

I did read your every post on here. The fact that you have this problem with every single one of your scoped rifles means it's a combination of you and your gear.

Getting good groups does not mean your scopes are fine.

I'm done because this thread has all them makings of an epic meltdown

 

[Coglione]

These are all lower end scopes and mounts, but nothing that sounds terrible. If it's a consistent issue across these rifles then, without meaning to sound rude, the problem is either the shooter or the installation of the parts. If the scopes have too little or too much torque on the mounts then that's going to be an issue. How you shoot certainly will affect things. Are you shooting off hand? Are you shooting off a bipod and rear bag on a stable bench or prone, with no wind?

It depends. I don't have a bipod, just a combination of bench resting, no bag, and offhand. I tend to shoot open sights more offhand, scoped rifles more bench rested but I can go back and forth.

I went and checked torque specs and took them to a gun shop an in a few cases gunsmith to "do right'. It didn't change anything.

Again, not to repeat myself, but in the interest of being scientific and isolating variables the issue is that I NEVER get this issue with open sights, nor do I get this issue with scoped guns I have that are shot only indoors or in a narrow range of outdoor temps (CO2 air rifle). As a matter of fact some of the first scopes I got were really cheapo low end scopes on those airguns I got when my kids were small for backyard plinking. I had no idea what I was doing, probably installed them totally wrong and the only time the 2 scoped airguns I have are not dead on is when they are running out of gas. You can tell.

As far as wind at 100-200 yards where I do all my shooting it doesn't seem to affect things much but often the way the groups are "off' are not consistent with how the wind is blowing so no I don't think it's the wind.

 

[UpSideDown]

Is your scope parallax way off? Parallax at 800 when shooting 100?
Shooting position, check weld, stuff like that won’t really affect a 100 yard target so much. Longer range will be apparent, but not a foot off zero at 100. We can rule those out.

 

[Coglione]

Not to be a dick but are you zeroing at one distance and shooting at another? Your statements are kind of all over the place, we need more info.

I always sight in at 100 yards because it's the easiest and most logical especially for ballistic reticles. Most of these guns are so flat shooting (556, 762/308, 44 mag, 6.5 Grendel) there's not much of a drop at 200.

 

[UpSideDown]

Is it possible you’re turning your knobs on accident? If you turn them to whatever number zeroes the scope, but you don’t mechanically reset the knob so that it says 0 at that point, you couldn’t know if your knobs were turned. If you put the scope in the bag, truck, move it by hand, it can turn the knobs if they aren’t a locking or capped style. If your knobs aren’t mechanically set to 0 you couldn’t confirm where they are supposed to be.

 

[Coglione]

Is your scope parallax way off? Parallax at 800 when shooting 100?
Shooting position, check weld, stuff like that won’t really affect a 100 yard target so much. Longer range will be apparent, but not a foot off zero at 100. We can rule those out.

That's another potential problem but my eyes are pretty good (-0.25 the least amount of nearsightedness possible) and at age 41 I can still see reasonably well at distance without glasses or drive at night but I am finding it's a little bit more difficult.

That said I find the "focus" (or parallax") seems to work out and make everything appear focused more or less at the distance I am looking. If I am shooting 100 yards then setting it on 100 makes it more or less clear. That said I don't fully understand parallax, I have read about it and it may be another potential issue.

 

[Coglione]

Is it possible you’re turning your knobs on accident? If you turn them to whatever number zeroes the scope, but you don’t mechanically reset the knob so that it says 0 at that point, you couldn’t know if your knobs were turned. If you put the scope in the bag, truck, move it by hand, it can turn the knobs if they aren’t a locking or capped style. If your knobs aren’t mechanically set to 0 you couldn’t confirm where they are supposed to be.

Most of my scopes have locking knobs. I am no precision rifle expert, obviously but I know that this is one easy variable to eliminate so I always make sure to keep them locked once I am sighted in!

 

[UpSideDown]

That's another potential problem but my eyes are pretty good (-0.25 the least amount of nearsightedness possible) and at age 41 I can still see reasonably well at distance without glasses or drive at night but I am finding it's a little bit more difficult.

That said I find the "focus" (or parallax") seems to work out and make everything appear focused more or less at the distance I am looking. If I am shooting 100 yards then setting it on 100 makes it more or less clear. That said I don't fully understand parallax, I have read about it and it may be another potential issue.

So the very rear of the scope, right where the scope would hit you in the face if you were too close to it, that is the focus portion to adjust the scope to your eye. The parallax knob is the knob on the left side of the scope next to the elevation and windage knobs. Focus is set once, for you, and not touched again. Parallax is adjusted for each distance you shoot. If you are adjusting parallax to focus for your eye, and not touching the focus ring, that could be an issue.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

I am having issues with all my scopes not keeping zero and they have been going on for years. While I am not into precision rifle as I have too much going on to do it right and the details are just not interesting to me, especially how expensive the equipment can be in light that the longest ranges I have to shoot are 25 yard indoor or 200y outdoor this seems the place to be to learn about this sort of thing.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the scopes I have from mid grade Leupold, Bushnell, Vortex, Nikon or Primary Arms to more mundane no name generics that came with some old cheap guns I enjoy shooting as they always shoot to their accuracy expectations. If my gun will shoot 1.5 MOA it always shoots 1-1.5MOA and so forth just that over time it may shoot 1.5 MOA a foot to the left or right on a different range session. What I mean is on the same range session the zero stays to wherever the gun is shooting and prints that same MOA consistently in the same place. If it starts off 1 MOA group 1 foot to the left it keeps shooting like that until I re-zero it, and that lasts a range session or two or three until it's off again in another place which it consistently holds that same range session until I re-zero it. Has been happening for years and it's very annoying to have to keep re-zeroing all my optics! I think I have it narrowed to being a temperature problem in that the temps might affect the scope, rings, mount and different part of the gun differently because I have airguns I shoot in mild/mid temps in the back yard (not summer too many people outside, not winter too cold) or a couple guns I just keep at a local indoor range. Actually they have the cheapest scopes I own and they are the ones that are always dead on as long as I keep using the same ammo. So do you have temperature related issues with scope shift? Is it a thing with guns sporting telescopic sights? What do you do to account for it? Do I need to spend even more money on more expensive "better" rings that don't shift as much?

The reason this is a big deal to me is because of all this coronacraziness and riots and looting and whatnot. While as time goes the infection seems overblown and I am no longer afraid of the virus, I am very concerned about possible economic consequences and repercussions, even maybe having to harvest my own meat. I do have hunting license, mostly airgun or rimfire hunt small game as it's the easiest and least time consuming. I really like the Primary Arms or Vortex Strike Eagle scopes especially because they will do everything pretty well but if it came down to having to protect my family and the optic cannot be relied upon to hit where I am aiming then I am thinking of just eliminating optics from my repertoire or just keeping a couple as range toys when I feel like re-zeroing them and rely on open sights for hunting or self defense which are far less precise, but have never given me these accuracy issues.

Thanks for the help.

Statistically unlikely that all your scopes would have the same issues.
I am in no way trying to be a wanker, but I think the issue lies mainly with your technique, body positioning, etc.
Perhaps go to a range where they do an introductory course, that incorporates lessons on basic body positioning, hold techniques, breathing, etc.
I am by no means perfect, and often have to do some stretches and breathing exercises in order to set myself up for some successful range shots.
As with all beautiful machines, it's often the human element that can be the hardest to control.
All the best.

 

[Snipe260]

Do you drink alcohol Before some sessions? Serious question!

 

[Southern Custom]

There are so many things missing here that it’s almost impossible to diagnose. You didn’t mention the ammo you are using and whether you are changing loads from one range session to the next. You mention shooting off the bench as “bench resting”, whatever that means, yet said you are not using bags or bipod. Without a solid repeatable shooting position, you cannot expect repeatable results from one session to the next.
as for locking knobs, most scopes don’t use locking turrets. Can you turn your turrets without doing anything special like pulling outward first to release the locking mechanism? If you can reach over and rotate your windage turret then it is not a locking turret.
this sounds like a combination of not building a stable repeatable Shooting position, turrets getting rotated (we can’t know because you don’t have a reference point since you didn’t zero out the turret after sighting in) and possibly shooting various loads in the same rifle, not understanding parallax or diopter adjustments etc.
Just being able to print a good group on a given day doesn’t mean sound fundamentals. I can hand any new shooter my rifle and they can likely print decent groups with it. Part of being a good rifleman means knowing your guns and how various environments, shooting positions, clothing changes, etc will affect how the rifle shoots. Since you can’t tell us these things it makes it harder to diagnose.
start by sighting in the guns at 100 and then zeroing out your turrets. If on the next trip your POI has changed yet your turret is still where you set it (and you’ll know because it’s set to zero) then you know it’s either a shooter issue or a system issue. But without that baseline it’s impossible to pinpoint over a forum.

 

[hafejd30]

This just looks like a clusterfuck from the get go but I’ll try to help...

Groups shifting that much usually lead to a few things,

1) your optic sucks- scopes don’t hold a zero. Which is possible from the list you gave. Step up to a reliable optic and see what that does

2) mount is loose- this can cause the mount to slide on the rail or scope to slide in the rings. Result being you bump the optic around, go to range and shoot a group. Bump it the other way and the group moves a foot etc.

3) your shooting platform is jacked, fundamentals suck, no repeatability in your shooting platform, no idea if your turrets are spinning

Sounds like you could benefit from even a few YouTube videos on the fundamentals of shooting. Or getting the online training access on this site. You need more guidance on a wide scale before we can really help here

 

[Zatchmo]

Have you looked into a Banish suppressor?

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Do you drink alcohol Before some sessions? Serious question!

Or eat the local fungus?

 

[TxWelder35]

Are you using the exact same ammo each time? Each type of ammo is going to shoot different and have a different POI

Also 556/762/6.5 grendel are not know as flat shooting rounds btw...at 200 yards you will be about 2 minutes low compared to a 100 yard zero. Which would be 4”.

 

[breadbag257]

Does anyone else have access to the rifles, possibly without you knowing?

 

[beetroot]

Do you live near any high voltage power lines? It could be induced magnetic fields causing eddy currents in the barrel to change the harmonics.
There is no other reason it would happen on different rifle/scope combonations.
I have my guns kept in a faraday cage gun safe that's earthed to my house electrical system, due to living close too some major transmission lines.

 

[Snipe260]

Does anyone else have access to the rifles, possibly without you knowing?

I was thinking same thing. Small kids love things that turn and go click.

 

[Dts51350]

This might have been mentioned before but the first thing I would do is have someone else shoot the guns. Are you using the same ammo every time? Different grain weights could cause different groupings I had trouble with my 6.5 shooting all over the place and the problem was to light of bullets. Switched from 120 to 143 grain and shoots lights out now.

 

[Guthwine]

When adjusting parallax also keep an eye on the reticle that it really does stand still when you move your head. A focused picture is not always automatically parallax free.

 

[Coglione]

Thank you so much for the detailed replies. I will try to respond in kind. Sorry for the long post but I am replying to various posters all in one.

First off I do not drink alcohol at all. Quit a year ago, lost only 10lbs because I wasn't drinking that much but even then I feel a lot better. I stopped because I am starting to see a flood of articles detailing that there is no safe dose and have started to lump alcohol with other hard, dangerous drugs like tobacco, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, hallucinogens, you name it. They are all bad for your body and mind, and there is no upside. After quitting moderate drinking for over a year the only thing that upsets me is that I didn't do it sooner. The added energy and focus is nice too especially as the kids are getting older and need more stuff with sports, honors classes, AP, test prep and all that jazz. So no alcohol here.

I always shoot the same types of ammo for the most part. Occasionally I will shoot off others but it's mostly pistol or rimfire ammo that I use different brands. My style is to find a halfway decent factory load that both works well in my gun but is not expensive and (at least in the Trump pre COVID days) stock up on it in significant bulk so I don't have to worry about it for a while. With the rifles this is either Lake City for 7.62/308, CBC/Magtech for 556, Sellier and Bellot for 6.5 Creedmoor and Wolf for the Grendel. The low prices of 2017-early 2020 years have helped in that regard. I get 1-2MOA out of the guns I use in some cases a bit better which is amazing as none of this is especially fancy ammo. I think this says a lot that I am at least a decent shooter with decent fundamentals.

I am not really into buying fancy riflescopes, I don't think the fact that my scopes cost $300 instead of $3000 that will make them any less accurate as there are other likely factors. How could 5-6 different scopes be acting like that? I agree it's probably another factor including myself. I know people who own high end optics and have looked through them, even real fancy stuff like Vortex Razor, Night Force or even Schmidt and Bender; they're not that good! The difference between a $50-100 and a $250-400 scope is huge, like clarity, eye relief, tactile feel. But when you look through the real pricey stuff many times the lens is so big you get a "fast" scope (like 50-56mm) so the field of view suffers. The cheaper scopes are almost better and more fun for me because I can find the target quicker at the same magnification thanks to the wider field of view.

The couple times I looked through these optics I find the lens clarity of a $1,500-$3,000 scope not to be 5-10x the scopes I use, maybe a little better enough to notice but that's about it. I think a rifle scope is crippled in terms of offering good clarity because you're only using one eye and at least at the 100 or 200y I shoot the magnifications I need are so low (8x or less) you can't tell a difference. I did spent significant money on a nice spotting scope (Cabela's Krotos) as well as a couple pairs of high end binoculars. The spotting scope was worth it because the better optics allow you to make the most of all the magnification. It also doubles as a telescope to see planets and astronomy stuff with the kids, very cool. The binoculars are worth it because in the field either as a tourist, shooter, hunter or even SHTF you're going to be looking through them much more time than a scope, and you are using both eyes instead of the tunnel vision of one. At least that's how I see it. I think if I needed to magnify a target at 1,500 yards I would be singing a different tune as I know that a $1,200 pair of binoculars makes a huge difference when you look at something 5, 10, 20 miles away vs even a $300 pair. Seen the difference in places like Italy, Switzerland, Spain, France, the USA Southwest, coastal areas. To me the high end binocs are worth it, not to mention better glare resistance. Right now due to the coronacraziness even though I make decent money my plan is to live like I am broke until further notice as if I were in my college days because the economic consequences are highly unpredictable. So unless I need it, I am not buying anything for the forseeable future.

On communicating with everyone here it seems the problem could be the bench resting and parallax combined with temp and clothing. I shoot as well as anyone could offhand. Most of my life I have shot offhand as a kid or at indoor ranges or on private land. It's only been the last 5 years I have been a member of a rod and gun club that I have been shooting from a bench. My technique there is probably not ideal either, no bag, the rests are those basic ones you find at, well, rod and gun clubs and different every time.

It's hard to get other people to shoot your guns these days. People are afraid, even the right wing gun owners at my rod and gun club because most of them are pretty old and vulnerable. My kids are decent shots but nowhere near what you need to be to dial this stuff in. I am one of the least intimidated by COVID because I am a physician and know the facts but it's hard to get people out there. This will be on my to do list though.

I probably plan to get some precision rifle lessons just to look into this. There are instructors out there that charge reasonable fees but as far as SHTF/home defense guns take the optics off and just use them with open sights or replace them with red dots as that seems to work best for me. I really like using the scopes at the range when they work. It's like playing a video game but given how under pressure I cannot count on a a magnified optic I will need to make other plans and like a gun with a custom trigger or handloaded ammo keep them as entertainment range only devices and NOT hunting or defensive tools until I can sort this out.

 

[Forward543]

Maybe check out quigley ford scopes.

 

[Krob95]

Edited because, like a fish, I took the bait

 

[koshkin]

I am really curious how this one is gong to pan out.

To the OP: if you were a little closer, I'd take a look at your guns. Offhand, it does not sound like a gear problem. You are doing something wrong.

ILya

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Some of you sure are gullible

 

[ssc45]

I just checked---It is not April 1st. However, it is 2020 so anything is possible. I am reminded of the old Mall Ninja threads.

Cheers, Steve

 

[squishee]

I had so many times started to type a sincere reply .
After his last post I'm glad i didn't take the bait.

 

[UpSideDown]

Given your aversion to spending reasonable fees on scopes that work, I have no interest in hearing what instructors will teach you for your version of 'reasonable fees.'

You have 15 average rifles with 15 mediocre scopes. Sell them all, buy 1-2 rifles and 1-2 scopes and a shitload of ammo with the money you get from the sales, and enjoy all the wonders of smooth feeding, well fitted, precise guns with wonderful glass.

 

[10ring'r]

I'm not trying to be an ass, but, this is one hell of a dumpster fire.
As has been mentioned before, please, when you sight in your rifle(s), make sure if you use one type/brand/grain of ammo, you always use the same ammo that it's sighted-in for, when you shoot it again. IF you sight in with one type/grain/brand, then go back to the range on a different day and use a different brand/type/grain, your results will be different. I know if I use 5.56mm/77gr. ammo to zero a rifle, then when I shoot it again, provided that it's the same temp/humidity, but, I use .223/77gr. (same manf.), my POI will shift damn near an inch/1moa lower and be Rt. or Lt. of center. Consistency is key. Mac
eta: Did you say you rang steel at 700yds... with an air gun??

 

[JakeM]

Glass isn't the only thing you pay for in a good scope. Comparing glass in good light isn't going to seem vary different unless you know exactly what to look for in it, I doubt you do. You're scopes aren't as near as good as other stuff stop lying to your self. There is a lot of other stuff contributing to it also.

 

[Coglione]

I think the parallax may be an issue as well.

The reason why I have the guns I do is because I got most of them super inexpensively. PSA has sales and every once in a while I pick stuff up for a song. The upper/lower thing is one of the best ways to save because by being the first to pop the pins you basically save 25-30% on the price of a total new gun.

Other guns sometimes appear for sale in a local store along with lots of ammo. I couldn't resist the Henry 44mag because it was in really good shape and while I paid slightly more than a brand new list price for a slightly used gun, I got the scope, rings and an entire spam can full of ammo for free. Oftentimes a lot of people sell their guns and ammo together and I have gotten some spectacular deals on ammo like this.

If I can shoot 1-2moa groups at 1-200 yards and that distance is all I will ever get to shoot, I really don't see the point in spending more to have something "better" because I don't have use for it. It's the so called "BMW" effect and you see it in other fields too. Yes it's nicer but it's not that much nicer in proportion to the extra cost, maintenance and reliability hassles. I'd rather take the easy way out by driving a Toyota and don't care how much faster the BMW does 0-60. I am not saying people who drive the BMW are doing it wrong, just that I don't want to be bothered with what the BMW entails.

I also like having spares as I am not into fixing guns. I don't have the time or effort and if something breaks especially in a "post ban" or SHTF situation I'd rather have something else I can just grab than trying my hand at fixing stuff.

I really don't have any issues with my guns when shooting offhand. I do appreciate the constructive input very much and will be looking into parallax adjustment a bit more carefully, maybe taking some lessons when this craziness settles down. I am having honest problem, you can take it the wrong way if you like. I get it my shooting is well below the level here but I am not looking to be a long range precision shooter or sniper because where live and the ranges available make it impossible. I am trying to find people who are very knowledgeable to diagnose a problem and I think I have my answer. If anyone lives in or near Rhode Island please PM me, I shoot at Sakonnet River Outfitters indoor and Manville Rod and Gun Club outdoors. Willing to meet at other gun clubs if you like.

Thank you very much

 

[UpSideDown]

I wouldn't worry about having spare guns to avoid repairs during a SHTF scenario if every one of your guns doesn't work now.

If your guns shoot well off-hand, but not on a benchrest, are you resting the barrel on something? If the barrel sits on a sandbag, that will absolutely change point of impact. The stock itself is the only thing that should be resting on something.

 

[D1gger]

Could you describe your "bench resting" method? If you are putting pressure on the handguard and it's touching the barrel, it could cause weird things to happen. It would be very odd that it would happen to multiple rifles though

 

[Rerun7]