Scored a K11...

[Sooter76]

Finally took possession of a Swiss K11 I ordered from Empire Arms in December... Really nice condition overall with strong rifling and a 'match grade' trigger. The bluing has faded quite a bit but looks to be more the byproduct of overzealous cleaning than anything else. The stock is in very good condition with a few expected dings and scratches. I've now reached my goal of having one example of all 3 Swiss major Swiss straight pull rifles. Once the weather breaks I'm looking forward to seeing how she shoots.
A couple side questions tho...

1) Of all my Swiss rifles my K31 has the worst trigger. It's not bad, but it is significantly heavier than my G1911 or K11 which hover around 2.5lbs. I haven't had a lot of experience behind different K31's or G1911/K11 rifles besides my own. For those that have, have you found this to be normal?

2) I'm not entirely sure I want to but if I was to try and reblue my K11 how would I go about it for the most accurate refinish?

 

[B y r o n]

You know that we need to see pictures of this beauty.

 

[eicas]

I just picked up a G11 from Simpsons last week. Had the luxury of going in and lookiking at what they had to offer. The choice ended up being a nice 1916-era that has honest 90% metal and 85%+ wood. The bore is unbelievable for a 100yr old gun that has a refirb stamp of 1933. Even had the tag under the stock.

My oh-pin-yun would be to leave it be. Regardless of bluing, I’m sure it’s got a lot of character. Pick up where the last gent left off and treat it like it never missed a beat. I find it amazing the condition of these guns. Automatenfett may not be a miracle gun preservative, but how they used it, and how the guns were stored certainly were. I have Mausers and Enfields that are younger and and in half the honest condition. My plan is a good heavy clean with a detail strip, an alchahol scrub to remove the shellac (it’s shellac over walnut) and some coats of linseed oil and turpentine.

After seemingly bumping into 7.5x55 everywhere (before I had the rifle) the stark reality of $35/box PPU sank in fast. I bought a few boxes to run thru it this weekend, and already ordered dies and brass, and R17. Luckily, a supply of 175smk and 165gr Remingtion PSPCLs are already on the shelf from loading .308.

Toss a pic up, and I’ll do the same after I smack some steel with mine this afternoon.

 

[eicas]

That was fun. See the diopter thread.

 

[sandwarrior]

Very nice rifle eicas. Do post some groups when you get a chance.

 

[AIAW]

Awesome. Amazing pieces of history. The "fluttering" brass ejection from these rifles alone is worth in investment. Got to walk a bit to pick up your brass!

 

[zfk55sr]

If you're a dyed-in- the-wool Swiss Rifle shooter, you'll wear a broad brimmed hat and catch all of your brass in the rim.

 

[Hetzer]

All this will have me digging out the K31 again. I haven't shot that thing in probably 4 years.

 

[eicas]

Meh. Groups were nothing spectacular. As per the Diopter thread, about 2 3/4” at 100yds using the v-notch rear, a sitting rest, 56yr old eyes and Herter’s ammo. I’m sure It could do better with some handloads, but using that rear sight is a young man’s game. Diopters or peeps are in order. Lederhosen shall be optional.

 

[Sooter76]

Prerequisite pics...

 

[NineHotel]

Some smart design features on these rifles, that is for sure. A quality firearm. I need to read up on K11 vs K31.

 

[DaleGribble82]

Congrats, excellent old school piece.

 

[zfk55sr]

Meh. Groups were nothing spectacular. As per the Diopter thread, about 2 3/4” at 100yds using the v-notch rear, a sitting rest, 56yr old eyes and Herter’s ammo. I’m sure It could do better with some handloads, but using that rear sight is a young man’s game. Diopters or peeps are in order. Lederhosen shall be optional.

The Swiss Rifles are, in order of proven accuracy........
The 96/11 #1
The G11 #1a
The k31 #2
The K11 #3

 

[eicas]

Yea...day job getting in the way of fun for the next week or so...

Detail stripped, cleaned, stock has several coats of the linseed/turp/vinegar/beeswax mix on it now. Final coats and reassembly when I return. Brass, dies, and other loading goodies enroute. Rifle was surprisingly clean throughout. Still need to call you folks to discuss the diopter. That’s all new stuff to me...

 

[zfk55sr]

eicas, is your rifle Walnut or Beech?

 

[eicas]

Looks to be walnut. 1916 manufacurer. Numbers on stock match.

 

[zfk55sr]

Got it, and...... D'oH! I wasn't paying attention. There were no Beech 1911's ever made, but...........
For those who want to refurbish: Note that I didn't say "Refinish"

Beech Stocks.

The original is Shellac. Use alcohol to remove the old Shellac
Do not immerse the stock or get the interior wood overly wet.
Rub Scrub stock hard and quickly with warm soapy water and a scrub brush.
Rub dry immediately with a Terry towel and let stand overnight.
Use the directional steamer to raise the dents..

Apply new coats of clear Shellac. Some Shellacs have a yellow or red tinge. That's ok.

Walnut Stocks

Do not immerse the stock or get the interior wood overly wet.
Rub Scrub stock hard and quickly with warm soapy and a scrub brush.
Rub dry with a Terry towel and let stand overnight.
Use the directional steamer to raise the dents.

A) Use 000 Copper Wool to smooth the surfaces.
Hand rub with raw linseed oil until you have a warm smooth finish.
This may take a number of coats.

B) Sanding is less preferable unless you're going for a new rifle appearance.
Sand smooth but use a wood block taking care not to round any of the
edges or the finger grooves. Do not overly sand the Cartouche.
Rub vigorously with a rough Terry towel.
Apply a coat of Tung Oil with a soft cloth and let dry. Lightly rub down
with 000 Copper Wool. Repeat this process 6 to 10 times until you have
a deep, warm glow to the wood. If you want a glossier finish, don't Copper
Wool the last coat. I prefer the satin look, so I do use it on the final coat.

__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

 

[sandwarrior]

Got it, and...... D'oH! I wasn't paying attention. There were no Beech 1911's ever made, but...........
For those who want to refurbish: Note that I didn't say "Refinish"

Beech Stocks.

The original is Shellac. Use alcohol to remove the old Shellac
Do not immerse the stock or get the interior wood overly wet.
Rub Scrub stock hard and quickly with warm soapy water and a scrub brush.
Rub dry immediately with a Terry towel and let stand overnight.
Use the directional steamer to raise the dents..

Apply new coats of clear Shellac. Some Shellacs have a yellow or red tinge. That's ok.

Walnut Stocks

Do not immerse the stock or get the interior wood overly wet.
Rub Scrub stock hard and quickly with warm soapy and a scrub brush.
Rub dry with a Terry towel and let stand overnight.
Use the directional steamer to raise the dents.

A) Use 000 Copper Wool to smooth the surfaces.
Hand rub with raw linseed oil until you have a warm smooth finish.
This may take a number of coats.

B) Sanding is less preferable unless you're going for a new rifle appearance.
Sand smooth but use a wood block taking care not to round any of the
edges or the finger grooves. Do not overly sand the Cartouche.
Rub vigorously with a rough Terry towel.
Apply a coat of Tung Oil with a soft cloth and let dry. Lightly rub down
with 000 Copper Wool. Repeat this process 6 to 10 times until you have
a deep, warm glow to the wood. If you want a glossier finish, don't Copper
Wool the last coat. I prefer the satin look, so I do use it on the final coat.

__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

I love the way those are all saddled up and ready to roll.

 

[zfk55sr]

Refinish, Refurbish, Swiss or American?

Here's some logical reality. Refurbishing has gone on in CH long after the armory in Bern stopped doing it. It's gents like the Swiss professional in this photo that keeps that train rolling.​

​

​

So, what makes this Swiss gent more qualified to do a refurbish or restoration than a American Stock Making professional? Simple geography? No. If the Ami stock maker is well versed in Swiss stocks.........Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

It took me 7 very long years with multiple submissions to get the Swiss to accept the fact that an Ami machine shop could produce Swiss rifle accessories of a quality equal to any Swiss shop. The SSV agreed. Our sales in CH have long since proven this since 1998 when I started SP. We have a great distributor there, and our acceptance by Swiss rifle shooters has proven itself over and over by sales volume, so............. Why does it have to be a refurbish by a Swiss gunsmith? It doesn't.

A refurbish is probably more acceptable than a refinish, however...... Swiss gunsmiths also do complete refinishing more often than refurbishing. You'll not find an Ami more loyal to the Swiss rifles than I am, but the reality is that Swiss or Ami, the quality can be achieved by either. The true dyed in the wool collector won't do anything whatsoever to these rifles, but those are not that common here in the US. Great to have one of each in original condition for a collector. Do you fit into that category? Either way, untouched or complete refinish............ they shoot the same and are held in reverence for exactly that. Shooting great despite the age.

P

 

[eicas]

No sanding fo me. The dents got there for a reason. Mine did have a shellac overcoat on it as it came off with denatured alcohol. The surface was smooth enough for my tastes and immediately got the linseed treatment after drying.

 

[zfk55sr]

eicas, if it had a shellac coating, then someone tried an incorrect refurbish. The entire 1911 series: 1889, 1896, 96/11, g11 and k11 were all factory finished with BLO, hand rubbed.

P

 

[zfk55sr]

The dents got there for a reason.

I happen to know that rifle. It was owned by Gerhardt Beutelspacher and he dinged it up himself dragging it hurriedly through the first floor window
of his girlfriend, Rosvita Geisel when her husband unexpectedly showed up.

 

[eicas]

Lol. Gethardt liked to live on the edge!

Not sure on the finish. There was definately a layer of shellac on it as it dissolved with the alcohol. It was on there for a while too, not a recent application by the looks of how it came off. I’d send pics, but it’s on my bench about 2100nm from where I sit right now... Maybe Rosvita was the local shellac supplier...???

From the looks during disassembly, it had been quite a while since the action was seperated from the stock. No matter. I shall treat it with respect!

 

[sandwarrior]

I happen to know that rifle. It was owned by Gerhardt Beutelspacher and he dinged it up himself dragging it hurriedly through the first floor window
of his girlfriend, Rosvita Geisel when her husband unexpectedly showed up.

You have a rifle at your girlfriends...and she has a husband????? Geez, and I thought I struggled through second grade? This is a DUMB one.

 

[zfk55sr]

LOL!

 

[eicas]

Note to self: Don’t expect stock to rub iinseed oil on itself for two weeks.

Barrel cleaned with PatchOut. A bit of blue, some brown carbon, but nothing like other milsurps I’ve cleaned. Two applications and it was clean. Probably could have left it at one application. Inside of receiver soaking in foam. A few more coats on the stock, and it will go back together tomorrow.

Dies, PPU brass sitting on bench. Search begins for some RL15 data for the 175smk and the 165 PSPCL.

Pics when its back together. Sights to follow.

 

[zfk55sr]

LOL! ...... and eicas, RL15 will work, but it's better suited to the .308 calibers.
I think you want RL 17
Looking for ward to photos.

P

 

[eicas]

I meant to type “RL17”. This is why I stay far away from sharp instuments for a day or two when I return from being on the road....?‍

Rifle reassembled. Action screws torqued to 30in/lb which seems resonable. Tang screw is less. Barrel free within stock and collar. I will continue the linseed oil in the weeks ahead.

I’m going to send some cases to Hornady to make a threaded case guage for me. I’m not comfortable using the method of pushing a long loaded bullet and case into the chamber. Not when jumping .010” or .020”. In the meantime, I have a large (as in substantial) supply of the Remington 165gr PSPCL to experiment with. I have RL17, Varget, IMR 4350 and IMR 4895. I’m really interested in working up something for the 175smk using the RL17, but that will have to wait for the case guage.

 

[zfk55sr]

Gorgeous rifle! The sharp edges of the butt stock and particularly the finger grooves tell me that it's not been refinished. The double cartouche tells me that the armoury may have been involved after original issue.
Is there anything stamped on the tang?
You'll be happy with both the 168 and 175SMKs. As for determining seat depth, this is a short excerpt from my archives on reloading that cartridge:

6) Projectile seating: It is not at all necessary to crimp for the 7.5 Swiss rifles. Crimping introduces a variable that you don't need. The grip of the case mouth (neck tension) on the bullet will not be identical every single time, thus, the unwanted variable. GP11 is crimped for the MG51 and earlier models.

To determine proper seat depth for any given projectile, keep in mind that the measurement is only valid when the contact of the bullet's ogive and the lands/grooves is determined.
Your manual says OAL is 3.020?... maybe for that bullet that they used, but only for that bullet profile, not all others. Projectile profiles vary from mfg to mfg. So how do you do it?

There are any number of ways, but I've always used the same methodology. Take a sized, empty and unprimed, uncharged case, start a bullet into the case mouth leaving it protruding further than is apparently correct. Place it in the rifle's chamber by hand, ease the bolt into full battery and "smartly" eject it. Measure that OAL and seat it 2 to 4 thousandths deeper. This is a good start. Later, when you've become more deeply involved in data gathering, you may want to play with seat depths to find the sweet spot for your cartridge. I have specifics I use regularly.
Yes, there are other ways. If you like your way better .......use it.

Once you determine your chambered OAL for that bullet, screw your seating die down until the mouth of an empty case stops the descent and back it out a full turn. Lock the die in place and back out the seater.
That method is only going to work for one bullet profile, and it its a hollow point its not going to be accurate anway since not all meplats are the same even in the same box. Your bullet seater should be indexed behind the tip and on the ogive, not on the tip of the bullet. A Sierra 175 MK is not going to be the same as a Berger 175 VLD at all. Both should index on the ogive, but not all ogives are the same distance from either the case mouth or the bullet tip. If you use just the tip you're going to have two completely different freebores for the same caliber, weight and charge with likely two different results.

Now measure it and decide how far off the lands you want to begin. Note that figure and begin working out your load, adjusting seat depth as you go. But remember that was only for that bullet profile. Change profiles and you're back to square one.
Find load data that might be in a trusted manual or proven data from the board. Always begin with a lesser load even if the data you find "appears" to be proven. Bear in mind that all Swiss rifles prefer a very close seating to the lands.

 

[eicas]

Thanks for the kind words on the rifle. No, there are no stampings on the tang. There is a “armory thru” stamp on the receiver of “33”. Is this the reason perhaps for the double stock cartouche?

Understood on the seating info. My usual method is to use a modified case and the Hornady tool. I’ve had good results with that, am used to using it, and all my other rifles data are also based on it. No sense in changing things up. I like predictability. The 165gr PSPCLs have a cannulure on them, and a dummy round loaded running the case neck edge to that cannulure passed the “plunk test” droppring fully into the chamber with zero resistance. The COAL and CBTO measurements clearly no issue there. That should provide me with at least some plinking ammo awaiting the cases from Hornady and a workup for the 175s. I might look around locally for some BLC-2 today and see if I can pick up a pound for the 165s.

 

[eicas]

Loaded up a spread using IMR4350 and the 165gr Remingtons. Weather going down the tubes next few days. Range time is questionalble. Maybe have the case back from Hornady and some 175gr SMKs loaded by then. Have some 168 & 178gr AMAX on the shelves that the .308 bolt gun didn’t like. Maybe give those a whirl too.