Scratching my head, rough seating issues.

[5RWill]

So i switched back to norma 130gr golden target. As a disclaimer i don't anneal, this brass is nearing the end of it's life. It was second hand when i got it, supposedly fired twice, though i can't confirm that. I've fired it at least 10 times, probably more around 12/13. I take 15 pieces out as i was going to do a velocity latter with 3 shots of each ranging from 36.8gr of varget to 37.6gr.

Now the bullet is indeed bottoming out on the stem so i ordered a long VLD seating stem, though even with the regular 6.5 VLD stem i have it does the same. But it's also pretty rough seating. I don't hardly tumble anymore and i just trimmed and chamfered. I ran a berger 130gr hybrid just to see and it was smooth as butter.

Think it's just the stem or what?

 

[gconnoyer]

Whats the neck tension?

 

[5RWill]

Using a .289 bushing that i've used forever now. Just rechecked with calipers .001 as it has been. Hoping it's just the stem that's the issue the Normas are long for 130s. But i don't remember having that issue when i shot them last.

 

[jdmartin]

Does a bullet slide freely into a fired case? Makes me wonder if you have a donut .If you do, the bullet tends to get hung up at the base of the neck.

 

[V-Ref]

Can you better describe what you mean by "pretty rough seating".

Ex: Is it taking excessive seating force to seat a bullet? Does the seating force jump, but then subside? Or is the seating force excessive throughout the seating operation? Is the loaded round not concentric? Are you getting erratic and inconsistent seating depths?

 

[5RWill]

Can you better describe what you mean by "pretty rough seating".

Ex: Is it taking excessive seating force to seat a bullet? Does the seating force jump, but then subside? Or is the seating force excessive throughout the seating operation? Is the loaded round not concentric? Are you getting erratic and inconsistent seating depths?

It force jumps and then subsides. I'd say it's taking excessive force for seating.

Yes inconsistent depths though that is obvious as i pull the round out the tip is stuck in the stem, so there is a bit of pop coming back down with the ram. I know the stem is part of the problem but unsure of why it's taking more force than usual. I don't have a runout gauge to check concentricity.

 

[V-Ref]

Can you describe your brass sizing process/dies?

Can you take and then post diameter measurements of a loaded nk @

1. Just south of the case mouth

2. Midway between case mouth & nk/shoulder junction

3. Just north of the nk/shoulder junction

The average measurements of 3 of the cases that are giving you the bump during seating would be preferred.

Be careful with excessive seating force, as you can create a hairline crack that will allow the bullet to be "wedged" into the stem under excessive force (that is likely the "pop" you described previously on the down stroke of the ram), and subsequently cause inconsistent seating depths even after you fix the excessive seating force issue.

They can be difficult to detect, best to remove the stem, clean throughly, and then with a bullet pushing into the stem and good lighting, you should be able to tell if you put a crack in them.

 

[Dai Bando]

15 reloads and no annealing on second hand brass and you think it might be the seating stem?

Time to start annealing or buying new brass quite obviously.

 

[5RWill]

Can you describe your brass sizing process/dies?

Can you take and then post diameter measurements of a loaded nk @

1. Just south of the case mouth

2. Midway between case mouth & nk/shoulder junction

3. Just north of the nk/shoulder junction

The average measurements of 3 of the cases that are giving you the bump during seating would be preferred.

Be careful with excessive seating force, as you can create a hairline crack that will allow the bullet to be "wedged" into the stem under excessive force (that is likely the "pop" you described previously on the down stroke of the ram), and subsequently cause inconsistent seating depths even after you fix the excessive seating force issue.

They can be difficult to detect, best to remove the stem, clean throughly, and then with a bullet pushing into the stem and good lighting, you should be able to tell if you put a crack in them.

Will do when i get off work today. I use Redding dies. Deprime, then size, then trim, prime, throw powder, etc. shoulders are bumped .002 in the sizing process.

I need to check the stem for sure because that certainly sounds like what’s happening. Hopefully i didn’t ruin it.

15 reloads and no annealing on second hand brass and you think it might be the seating stem?

Time to start annealing or buying new brass quite obviously.

I don’t have an annealer yet. But I’ve seen people claim more firings on 6.5x47 not annealed. I’ve got 100pcs waiting. Just wanted to run this last 200 out. I know it’s nearing its end as i had one that nearly had case head separation. Just was unsure if this was a stem issue or the brass itself.

 

[Dai Bando]

Trash that shit.

It's already junk.

 

[5RWill]

Trash that shit.

It's already junk.

Probably should. The Berger 130gr AR hybrid seated fine though. Which is another reason i was unsure of what was going on. I’ll switch to the other 100 and report back tonight.

 

[lash]

FWIW, I do not have an annealer either...yet. Haven't ever had one, just like all the other reloaders that came before the past 5-10 years where suddenly annealing cannot be done unless it's on a $1000 machine. Yes, the new annealing machines out there are very good and yes, they are capable of producing much more consistent and controllable annealed brass, and yes I want one. However, as mentioned, people have been annealing for a long time by hand. It takes a torch, a variable speed drill and some tempilaq.

I anneal my brass every second firing (well, occasionally it gets to the third firing, I'll admit). It makes a big difference in controlling neck tension (consistent neck tension). I use the tempilaq very infrequently, as its purpose is to identify the timing needed for a particular torch setting and distance in order to reach the optimal temperature for annealing without burning the brass. Once you have that down, you can do 100 pieces of brass pretty quickly. I anneal after tumbling.

 

[spife7980]

I dont think annealing has anything to do with it as the berger hybrid seated smoothly.
I think it has to do with your:

• the angle of the norma boattail vs the hybrid
• the actual bullet diameters relationship to the brass diameters and
• chamfer angle and amount
• the bottoming out in the stem possibly tilting the bullet a couple degrees maybe but this is the least likely culprit in tough seating. Different seated lengths and concentricity would be the big results but when tilted maybe its more like fitting an oval oval into a circle but I can only figure this could be super minimal in the actual force required.

I just recently was testing out a few different bullets for 270 and a berger classic hunter sat extremely easily, a sierra game king was more difficult but still what I would classify as easy and then a nosler ballistic tip was really tough. What I noticed was the difference in their bases and the longer smoother boat tails seated much more easily.

 

[5RWill]

Yeah i shot 500 Norma’s before though and never had this issue. Maybe the design changed. Gonna see if the long vld stem helps.

I’m trimming/chamfering with a Giraud. Though i had to reset it as i last trimmed 6.5 saum. Maybe that’s where my fault lies in the chamfer. Admittedly they weren’t what i usually like to see just figured it’d be fine.

 

[lash]

I know that this sounds patronizing, but when we have issues in industry that didn't exist before under the "same" conditions, I say to look for what changed from the last time or previous situations. If something worked before and it doesn't work now (no matter what it seems like) there must have been something that changed from before. Find that and you will be on the path to a correction. It's called "root cause".

 

[V-Ref]

Depending on the shooting discipline and your precision/accuracy goals, annealing may be further down the priority list for some shooters than others.

Excellent point about all the still standing NRA records from pre AMP era and even the pre Benchsource & other timed flame annealers.

Although 10 firings is getting up there.

 

[5RWill]

Looks like i'm going to scrap it, i had read before i started shooting 6.5x47 of people going 15+ without annealing and maybe that was hearsay i took to heart. Just tried another piece from the other 100ct of second hand, it's been fired considerably less more like 7-8 times. It was a no go.

Grabbed a piece from the hunting gun which is on it's 4th firing, sized, and seated smooth as butter, with the regular stem and exact to my adjustment.

 

[MarinePMI]

Just anneal it. Hell buy the AMP adapter, send it to me with your brass, and I'd do it for you. NC.

 

[5RWill]

Just anneal it. Hell buy the AMP adapter, send it to me with your brass, and I'd do it for you. NC.

I appreciate that. I got a buddy local that said he would anneal it for me with his bench source to see if that fixes it.