Seating depth with Bergers

[arbogb06]

Anyone shooting the berger VLD's out of their AR platform .223? I tried a few 80 grain vlds from a friend loaded them up only to see they had to be loaded longer then my ar could feed repeatedly. I have some 70 grain vld's which are 0.125" shorter.

Anyone have any luck with these 70 grain vld's in a AR?

Thanks.

 

[Oleshep]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

I don't shoot VLDs but I have read and heard they are very jump senstive, and should be loaded close to or almost on the lands. You won't be able to do this and still get them to fit in the mag.

When I shoot 80gr SMK's in my Match AR I seat them 0.010" off the lands. At this length they will not fit in the mag. This is not a problem since the NRA/CMP high power 600yd stage is slow fire one round at a time.

I have never tried to get them to seat mag length with my 24.0gr Varget load. If I did I think the case pressure would be too high..

To determine proper seating depth you need a tool or you have to use the cleaning rod procedure. Seating depth is diffrent for each rifle and chamber, and it will change as the lands erode with barrel wear.

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

Thanks for the insight. I will have to try the 70 grain VLD's 0.010 off the lands and just load them individually if too long. I was hoping I wouldnt have a single shot AR or might even try to get 69 grain SMKS or a lighter bullet that will work with the mag length.

 

[jbailey]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

Yes sir, I shot them and they are great out of my two ARs. Don't care about the lands, I just shoot them (this ain't a precision rifle and I'm not going to shoot any .25moa groups with my AR). They are very accurate however - same BC as the 77gr SMK but able to get them going 150fps faster. Have shot several team matches with them as carbine shooter and have had lots of success with these bullets. Pricey and no reason to use if the range is 300 and in, but if you have to go to 600, they are bullet to use from mag out of AR.

 

[Oleshep]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

I shoot 77gr SMKs at mag length and they shoot very well and jump very well. the 77grs will shoot back to 600yds okay but the wind will move them a little more than the 80s.

Hornaday 75grs, Berger 73grs are also very good for a mag length bullets.

If you have not bought a bunch of bullets yet and are just testing. I would go with one of those three, load mag length and go..

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

Thanks for the insight. I only bought 100 and just loaded 24 tonight and will be shooting the 70 grain Berger vlds this weekend. If they don't shoot I'm going to try the 77 grain smks then the hornadys. Hopefully the burgers shoot good but will have to try the smks to compare them to some sort of baseline.

Thanks again

 

[jbailey]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

post up a range report on those 70gr Bergers once you get the shooting done. Man those little pills are nasty out of my 20" Noveske

 

[Raider Power]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

I've shot them out of a couple of different ARs loaded to mag length and have gotten roughly MOA accuracy. This is inline with the average accuracy of both rifles so I would say give it a shot at least.

From my understanding VLDs are sensitive to seating depth, but there is a fairly wide range of seating depths that should be explored. For an AR, I'd load them to mag length, work up as many suitable powders as you have on hand and see which shoots the best. At worst you're out a couple of boxes of bullets, but have a fair amount of data in return.

In my case, it didn't make sense to keep loading them since they only provided normal accuracy at a much higher cost. I've got a bolt gun that shoots moa or worse with most loads, but feed it it's favorite pet load and it will do far better. In that case I'm willing to pay more for bullets to wring the most out of the rifle.

Just my two cents and for what it's worth, I enjoy tinkering with new loads. The ability to tailor ammo to a rifle and/or purpose is one of the majors draws to reloading for me.

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

Thanks Raider. I am hoping to get a little better than MOA out of them but like you and many others have said if they are sensitive to seating depths I don't have much to play with since they are loaded to mag length.

My barrel is a 1:8" twist so I am trying to stay with 69 grain pills and up. Tried the 80 grain pills and they are a no go, so I am stuck with 69-75 grain for the most part and these weights should stabilize in my barrrel correct?

 

[Oleshep]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

I shoot 77gr SMKs out of my 14.5" carbine with a 1:8twist and they stabilize fine.

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

Oleshep: Any feeding issues with the 77 SMK's? Any mods to the clip or carrier?

 

[Oleshep]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

My Carbine has M4 Feed ramps but my two match ARs don't. I have never had any feeding failures with any of them and I have probably shot about 3K rounds in rapdid fire stages. They are seated Max Mag length 2.250"

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

Well I shot the gun today and got pretrty good results with 24.0 grains of varget. Only problem was the 15-25 mph winds and 30-32 degree weather so may have been able to shoot a little better. Had 3 shots in less than the size of a quarter and the 4th was a flyer about an 1" below the 3 shot group. Probably was between me, the wind and me freezing. The length was 2.250". Next time at the range going to try out 23.8, 23.9, 24.0 (again), 24.1 & 24.2. Once this powder weight is figured out going to try to mess with the length a little. Try 2.240", 2.250" (current lengths) & 2.260" if I can get away with it. My PMAG have a little work done to them so they might feed the 2.260" just have to try it whent he time comes. I will say the 70 grain berger vlds cycle beautifully at 2.250" so might not press my luck. When shooting today I loaded all 4 bullets in the clip and it cycled every time.

Trying to figure out how to post a picture of the target but cannot figure it out. Thought I could just copy and paste but that did not work.

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

Figured it out. I guess it helps when you read the instructions on the forum.

 

[Oleshep]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

What range were you shooting at?

I was talking to a buddy at the range this weekend and he confirmed that the convential wisdom on VLDs was to seat them in the lands. However he mentioned some new data that indicates there is a "Sweet spot" that you can find with them where they shoot awesome. This maybe at a seating depth that is less than mag length. In order to find the "sweet spot" you need to range test and examine groups at various seating depths.

That said I would suspect that as the throat of your barrel wears you will need to adjust your seating depth to maintain the accuracy.

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

I was shooting at a small private range in Federalsburg, MD. Marshy Hope Rod and Gun Club. They have a 300 yard range.

I heard the VLD's were fussy on setaing depth as well but they seemed to shoot okay at 2.250" which is mag capatible. Might be able to go 0.010" further with them but thats about it unless I turn my AR into a single shot which is pointless.

Before I ladder test again with powder I might test lengths first. Try out 2.240", 2.250", 2.260" and see what happens then tinker with powder within a few grains +/- 24.0.

 

[Oleshep]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

Sorry I should have been more specifi what yardage where you shooting at? If those where shot at 300yd then I think that is a really good group. If it was at 100yd then I think you might be able to do a bit better.

To be clear when I was talking about the "sweet spot" that sweet spot may exist at seating depths less than Mag Len

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

This group was shot at 100 yds and I'm pretty sure I pulled the one shot. I know I could've shot better but it was around 30 degrees without wind chill and the wind was blowing 15-20 mph so I thought it was a fair group for the conditions. Seems like every week it had been sunny and upper 40's low 50's then on the weekend rain or snow or windy.

Ill have to try lengths in 0.015" increments starting at 2.260, 2.245, 2.230 & 2.215 and see how they shoot with 24.0 grains of varget pending weather conditions.

Thanks

 

[jbailey]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

I had my 20" Noveske out this past weekend w/ my 70gr Berger load and it was shooting great. Head shots on a 66% IPSC at 400yds, consistently. Don't have a clue where the bullets sits in relation to the lands - its 2.250" OAL w/ 25.2-25.3gr of Reloder-15 (RL-15 is temp sensitive and I use 25.3 on cold days like this past weekend - I was fighting the same weather you were arbogb06

)

I would also say you need lots more than 4 rds to tell if it will shoot for you. Statistically, with an AR, you need at least 10rds.

And don't get too hung up on seating depth, because those lands will move and you can only chase them so far out of a PMAG...

Anyway, it looks like you have a good start!

 

[arbogb06]

Re: Seating depth with Bergers

I am going to load some more rounds this week. Probably stick with 24.0 grains of varget and just try seating depth variations. I will load 8-10 rounds for each variation and shoot 8-10 round groups to see how it does.

Would love to do 10-15 round groups but I am getting low on brass so hopefully 8-10 round groups will suffice.

Range report to come this weekend. Looking at the 10 day weather report for my area and Saturday is 70% chance of rain and 50% chance on Sunday. I know this is a few days out but I should have known it was going to rain exactly when I want to shoot. Never fails. Guess I better bring my umbrella.