Seeking advice on Tikka barrel length and trigger style.

[dcmdon]

Hi all,

I am hoping to shoot some PRS or rimfire PRS matches for the first time in the spring. I live in the Northeast so there aren't a lot of opportunities to shoot really long range. I own some land in NH and am able to shoot out to 600 yards.

I've been shooting a Kidd .22 and am in the process of setting up a Bergara bolt gun and am having a ball shooting the .22 out past 200 yards.

I'd like to step up a bit but still want to handicap myself with a less than ideal cartridge. I have been reloading .223 for years and am capable of making very high accuracy cartridges for not a ton of money. (with a sub 5 fps SD in mv).

So I'd like my next rifle to be a .223 and I'd like to shoot it out to 600 yards and maybe more. Im of the opinion that trigger time is more important than an ideal platform. Please feel free to correct me if you disagree. I'm open to all suggestion. I'd also like to use it to introduce distance shooting to my daughters, and want the recoil to be minimal.

I was planning to buy a Tikka T3 CTR (I'm left handed so options are limited). It's available with a 20 or 24 inch barrel. What are your thoughts on that? I was thinking 24 to balance it farther forward. But I know just enough to know that I dont' know much. Ha.

The other option is trigger choice. A roughly 2.5# single stage or a set trigger. My thought is the set trigger, which is just a few oz once set, will help until I upgrade. I know it's non-traditional but it seems reasonable. Am I missing something?

As a bit of background I've been shooting and competing in various shooting sports for roughly 40 years. Everything from sporting clays to IDPA to service rifle, to 3 gun. I'm generally a slightly better than mid pack shooter. Partly because of limited God given talent and partly because of limited time. I did take the Sig Academy Advanced Precision Rifle class 9 years ago so I'm familiar with most of the concepts, just not terribly proficient.

In short I know enough to know the right questions to ask, but not much more. I've never shot PRS but understand that it's about accuracy, adaptability and speed. I think it will be a great way to expand my shooting skills and want to focus on skill development rather than equipment acquisition.

I've also got a 308 savage from their custom shop. It's a tack driver but still feels like a Savage. ha. I can make very accurate reloads for it but it's a much slower process than for my .223. I like that I can make up 100 rounds of .223 in an evening (I've got a ton of trimmed and sized brass all with the same head stamp) and shoot it all in one day.

For what it's worth, I have over 1000 Hornady 75 gr ELD match bullets given to me by someone who was getting out of reloading.

Any and all advice is welcomed.

Don

p.s. As an aside. I'm a better reloader than shooter. When I took the Sig class, we chrono'd our ammo. My .308 loads had a standard deviation of 3.3 FPS with an extreme spread of 9 fps. My instructor told me I was an adequate shooter but if he ever has to go back to Afghanistan, he's going to tap me to make his ammo. Ha.

 

[ShtrRdy]

If you do end up choosing 223 in a factory rifle, make sure the twist is fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets you want to use.

 

[just browsing]

A fine plan. But this all boils down to what you want to do, how much you want to spend, and how competitive you want to be. Tikka is a fine choice. .223 is a fine choice. 75 ELDs are fine bullets. You'll have no issues with that plan as long as you properly set expectations.

A couple things to consider:
- .223 will be at a disadvantage right off the bat trying to hang with the fast 22s, 6s, and 6.5s. It's not that you can't be competitive with a .223, but it takes a purpose built gun, load, etc. which a factory Tikka is definitely not.

- Tikkas are fine rifles and you can absolutely be competitive with them, but no factory rifle is going to be optimized for competition. This is not limited to Tikka, but in general. 24" barrel is going to be a much better option of the 2, but still not anywhere close to ideal considering weight, contour, twist, chamber, and speed (Tikkas are notoriously slow).

- Plenty of custom/semi-custom options in the current climate, a lot of which would not require substantially more investment than a Tikka. Zermatt Origin or ARC CDG with prefit barrels would both be options that can be built out for ~$2k all said and done. A far cry from a $1k Tikka, but good to understand all your options as well.

Again, this is not meant to deter you from .223 or Tikka or your current plan. Just making sure you understand that while it will likely be a very good rifle, it will be far from optimized for your intended use. It will definitely be at a disadvantage compared to purpose built match rigs, and you will essentially be making this sport as difficult as possible on yourself. If you're good with all that, some recommendations:

- 75 ELDs will be perfect for the factory 1:8t barrel. They are also easily the best .224 bullet for TAC class. I would try to push them around 2900fps or as high as you can realistically go without pressure. 3k fps is TAC class speed limit - anywhere close to that is ideal.

- Wouldn't worry about a set trigger... just get a lightened spring for the factory trigger. See how you like that first, then decide if you want to upgrade.

- A stock upgrade would certainly be beneficial for positional shooting. Even if it's a Bravo with an ARCA rail for the time being, it will make your life 100x easier compared to the factory stock.

Good luck and welcome!

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

75 eld aren't even close to the best bullet for tac class. 77smk 77tmk, 77 berger even the pva solids are a much better choice. My boy runs vlds as well and he wins tac in almost every local match.

The elds are cheap as fuck practice bullets that cost about half what a good bullet cost. They can be ran in matches but they are far from optimal.

 

[mikeshaw2]

Something I know a little about: .22 PRS style shooting. I'm no expert by any stretch, but I know a little.

If you're shooting .22 PRS style shooting, you don't want a Tikka for your rifle. Start with a CZ or one of the rifles like a Vudoo et al. A CZ will take you far before you 'need' a better rifle. Right now, I went the poor route and my CZs are in KRG Bravos. I DID upgrade to Timney triggers tho. I shot a guy's Timney-equipped CZ a few months back and that super light trigger pull helped keep my rifle still. Still had wobble, but ya gotta start somewhere. Next up is probably a 1.X" straight barrel for better balance, but that'll be a while.

AFA big rifle comps, you probably want something a little less affected by wind than the .223. My Tikka is a 6.5 manbun, but I'm thinking of getting a 6BR (or variant) barrel for less recoil and being able to spot my misses better. I do know that's part of what's holding me back at big rifle matches.

Both sports are similar, but different enough that skills don't 100% transfer. For example: you don't need to manage recoil in a .22

M

 

[Old Man with Gun]

I have a Tikka T3v 223 Varmint. Factory mag limits OAL, I switched to Chassis and AICS mags to shoot longer heavy bullets closer to lands. Trigger is great, just get a YoDave spring for like $20 and 14oz clean and crisp!
77SMK shot .5 to .7 and 75 ELD-M .5 to 1.1 in mine - got fliers

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Also have the CTR 6.5C and it is a great rifle, mags are pricy but very good quality, metal not the standard plastic mag. Get 24" for the velocity if you will compete.

 

[just browsing]

75 eld aren't even close to the best bullet for tac class. 77smk 77tmk, 77 berger even the pva solids are a much better choice. My boy runs vlds as well and he wins tac in almost every local match.

The elds are cheap as fuck practice bullets that cost about half what a good bullet cost. They can be ran in matches but they are far from optimal.

Holy hell man, lay off the bourbon.

Who the fuck actually shoots PVA solids except PVA stans? Things haven’t been relevant since well… ever.

SMKs are great for gassers but did we not look at BCs? Do we understand how those work?

I can’t stand Hornady stuff, especially their bullets. But I’ll deal with lot to lot inconsistency for the performance/cost…

Let’s at least pretend like you somewhat understand this stuff instead of just shitting on certain companies and shilling for others.

 

[K80/6.5]

I have a Tikka T3v 223 Varmint. Factory mag limits OAL, I switched to Chassis and AICS mags to shoot longer heavy bullets closer to lands. Trigger is great, just get a YoDave spring for like $20 and 14oz clean and crisp!
77SMK shot .5 to .7 and 75 ELD-M .5 to 1.1 in mine - got fliers

My tikka is the same way throws fliers with 75eldm and shoots bug holes with 77smk. I tried to go with a cheaper bullet but will be going back really just wasted powder and primers trying to chase a better bc bullet.

 

[dcmdon]

Thank you all. This is all great info.

Just one thing I probably wasn't clear on. I do not intend to compete with this rifle.

I'm interested in it for a couple of reasons.
1) I can make accurate and cheap ammo for it quickly.
2) my daughters can shoot it.
3) Its going to drift more than a 308 or 6.5 so it will help me improve my wind calls since I can't really get out past 600 regularly.

Think of it as a step up from a .22 trainer.

This spring I'll compete with my .308 and if I catch the bug probably sell it and go from there.

Both sports are similar, but different enough that skills don't 100% transfer. For example: you don't need to manage recoil in a .22

M

It's interesting that you say that. Something I know more about than rifle shooting is practical pistol shooting and I like to remind people that drawing and firing from a holster with a .22 teaches you step in firing a shot for except recoil management.

But it can be a bit worse. People develop bad habits. They hold the gun too loosely and when they switch back to centerfire their recoil management was worse than before they practiced, if they don't practice gripping the .22 as firmly as they would a centerfire gun.

I'm guessing it's not quite that with rifles, but it could be things like keeping the gun tight to the shoulder. A 14 pound rifle pushing out a 40 gr bullet at 1000 fps isn't going to have any recoil to manage, so I would guess you can also develop bad recoil management habits shooting a .22.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

If you are trying to handicap yourself to better practice ranging, adjusting scope, wind, etc. at 600yds a 77 SMK is no significant handicap. It is also very forgiving in regards to recoil management and shooting from awkward positions.
If training is a strong goal, I think a 308 with a reduced load would be better. 308 with the heaviest bullet it shoots well will have plenty of recoil, drop and wind drift at 600. You can reduce all the way down to subsonic if you want, but I think velocity in 2000-2200 range would be ideal and in line with starting loads in the books.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Holy hell man, lay off the bourbon.

Who the fuck actually shoots PVA solids except PVA stans? Things haven’t been relevant since well… ever.

SMKs are great for gassers but did we not look at BCs? Do we understand how those work?

I can’t stand Hornady stuff, especially their bullets. But I’ll deal with lot to lot inconsistency for the performance/cost…

Let’s at least pretend like you somewhat understand this stuff instead of just shitting on certain companies and shilling for others.

Your entire post reeks of ignorance. Shows you know nothing of PRS or long range shooting in general.

BC doest not matter as much for PRS. Its something that can be accounted for. IE it can be calculated and accounted for in firing solutions and corrections. Comparing .223 to .223 vs comparing .223 to .308 where it does matter.

What does matter is things you can't account/control, such as BC consistency and bullets blowing up. For example, the 105 and 109 hybrids from berger. The 109 has a higher BC so everyone would flock to them right? No, the 105 is a more consistent bullet proven by tens of thousands of rounds over radar. And the 109 is still a MUCH more consistent bullet than anything from hornady, which should tell you something.

They are fine for cheap practice ammo. In fact, alot of guys including people on this site use them for cheap .223 practice. Its a .20-.25 cent bullet vs a .40-.50 cent one. They sure as hell aren't using them in matches.

Next time lets give up the pot calling kettle black routine. Ignorance truly is bliss.

 

[just browsing]

Your entire post reeks of ignorance. Shows you know nothing of PRS or long range shooting in general.

BC doest not matter as much for PRS. Its something that can be accounted for. IE it can be calculated and accounted for in firing solutions and corrections. Comparing .223 to .223 vs comparing .223 to .308 where it does matter.

What does matter is things you can't account/control, such as BC consistency and bullets blowing up. For example, the 105 and 109 hybrids from berger. The 109 has a higher BC so everyone would flock to them right? No, the 105 is a more consistent bullet proven by tens of thousands of rounds over radar. And the 109 is still a MUCH more consistent bullet than anything from hornady, which should tell you something.

They are fine for cheap practice ammo. In fact, alot of guys including people on this site use them for cheap .223 practice. Its a .20-.25 cent bullet vs a .40-.50 cent one. They sure as hell aren't using them in matches.

Next time lets give up the pot calling kettle black routine. Ignorance truly is bliss.

LOL I’d be willing to bet an overwhelming majority of TAC class guys shooting .223 are shooting 75ELD. Of the ones I know in this regional, all of them are shooting 75s.

I’ve shot a metric fuckton of 75s. Never blown one up in a .223, and that includes a 6.5 twist. I’ve blown up more 88s than I’ve hit targets with, but that has nothing to do with 75s.

BC doest not matter as much for PRS. Its something that can be accounted for. IE it can be calculated and accounted for in firing solutions and corrections. Comparing .223 to .223 vs comparing .223 to .308 where it does matter.

I agree that BC is not everything, but it’s not as simple as “accounting for it in firing solutions and corrections.” That’s actually probably one of the most elementary understandings I’ve ever heard from someone who considers themself an experienced shooter.

It’s pretty clear you’ve never shot a 77 SMK or OTM past like 600 yards, but you can take my word for it that a .190 g7 does pretty fucking poorly.

Ignorance is bliss…

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

LOL I’d be willing to bet an overwhelming majority of TAC class guys shooting .223 are shooting 75ELD. Of the ones I know in this regional, all of them are shooting 75s.

I’ve shot a metric fuckton of 75s. Never blown one up in a .223, and that includes a 6.5 twist. I’ve blown up more 88s than I’ve hit targets with, but that has nothing to do with 75s.



I agree that BC is not everything, but it’s not as simple as “accounting for it in firing solutions and corrections.” That’s actually probably one of the most elementary understandings I’ve ever heard from someone who considers themself an experienced shooter.

It’s pretty clear you’ve never shot a 77 SMK or OTM past like 600 yards, but you can take my word for it that a .190 g7 does pretty fucking poorly.

Ignorance is bliss…

And they all suck. The best TAC shooters in this region (stiner is only one who is really even competitive).

.223 is a shitty choice for PRS. Its not competitive in TAC class. Not only does it not have enough ass past 600 (with any bullet), its almost impossible to spot splash and you will loose points to RO not seeing hits.

So your argument is to start with the most cucked round there is for prs (.223) and then pick one of the most inconsistent bullets out there for it (75ELD). LOL

 

[ma smith]

75 eldm is trash in a Tikka

 

[just browsing]

75 eldm is trash in a Tikka

lol anyone that makes generalized statements like this pretty much guarantees user error.

 

[just browsing]

And they all suck. The best TAC shooters in this region (stiner is only one who is really even competitive).

.223 is a shitty choice for PRS. Its not competitive in TAC class. Not only does it not have enough ass past 600 (with any bullet), its almost impossible to spot splash and you will loose points to RO not seeing hits.

So your argument is to start with the most cucked round there is for prs (.223) and then pick one of the most inconsistent bullets out there for it (75ELD). LOL

Jfc I really hope no one listens when you spew this garbage.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Jfc I really hope no one listens when you spew this garbage.

Ok tell me who these great shooters are in the NE region shooting TAC. Or who is shooting .223 nationally and competing. I know one guy who uses a .223 and does pretty well but he just moved to Cali from NC.

There are about 10 guys in the whole nation who are even competitive in tactical division. Scott won the last 2 years in a row, stomping the piss out of everyone else. They are all using 308's.

For comparison, you could shoot bottom 25% of every match and still get ranked as a professional at the end of the season. It just happed to a few "tac" shooters who shot the finale. We don't need to name names, but you can go look it up. It is what it is.

I shoot in the NE region at almost every venue. Please bring your .223 out to WAR, MKM or Lewistown and show us how great it is. Shooting meatballs at new holland and mayberry where your further shot is like 550yards, where you would think the playing field is leveled with a .223, they are still getting beat by a significant amount. I may even run .223 at a few of the matches this year to prove a point. Sure as hell won't be using eldms.

 

[just browsing]

Ok tell me who these great shooters are in the NE region shooting TAC. Or who is shooting .223 nationally and competing. I know one guy who uses a .223 and does pretty well but he just moved to Cali from NC.

There are about 10 guys in the whole nation who are even competitive in tactical division. Scott won the last 2 years in a row, stomping the piss out of everyone else. They are all using 308's.

For comparison, you could shoot bottom 25% of every match and still get ranked as a professional at the end of the season. It just happed to a few "tac" shooters who shot the finale. We don't need to name names, but you can go look it up. It is what it is.

I shoot in the NE region at almost every venue. Please bring your .223 out to WAR, MKM or Lewistown and show us how great it is. Shooting meatballs at new holland and mayberry where your further shot is like 550yards, where you would think the playing field is leveled with a .223, they are still getting beat by a significant amount. I may even run .223 at a few of the matches this year to prove a point. Sure as hell won't be using eldms.

Now we’re talking. Let me know when, I’ll bring mine to one of the WAR 1-days and shoot 75s, bring yours and shoot 77s or whatever TAC bullet you deem superior. In the name of science and gentleman’s bets.

Don’t shoot much NH anymore and I’ll stay home before I ever go back to Mayberry, lol.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Now we’re talking. Let me know when, I’ll bring mine to one of the WAR 1-days and shoot 75s, bring yours and shoot 77s or whatever TAC bullet you deem superior. In the name of science and gentleman’s bets.

Don’t shoot much NH anymore and I’ll stay home before I ever go back to Mayberry, lol.

Passing up easy points LOL. If I do shoot .223 this year its going to be with 80.5 or 85.5 bergers at those close range venues. I don't care about TAC points but it would be interesting to see how well one could do at those venues that hardly have any wind anyway.

Sure as hell not driving 3 hours to watch my little .223 bullets go off into the woods at WAR. My buddy needed like 7 mils of wind to hit the 1250 with his shitty 308 there. Dialed 4 and it went off 3 mils left.

 

[TheDude219]

Jfc I really hope no one listens when you spew this garbage.

that dude has an opinion about everything. Seems he gets called out for them all being wrong too. At least he's consistent

 

[1911Shootist]

My first foray into PRS from NRL22 was with a Tikka 223. I got the 24" version with the great 2-stage trigger and put the barreled action into an MPA BA Comp. It was a great rifle. Shot factory ammo very well. It lasted one match before I sold it.

I went in with similar goals as you - low recoil, cheap ammo, ok with giving myself a little handicap. I quickly realized that handicap is not so little. You can't learn from your misses or your hits if you can't see them.

Ordinarily I'd recommend against a Tikka for PRS unless you already own one. In the end you wind up paying $1000+ for just the action, and that action paints you into a corner with limited used and resale markets, which are even smaller being a lefty. I'm sure you know from NRL22 shooting, your needs and wants will evolve quickly as you figure things out.

That said, I'm not sure what other lefty options you have.

No matter what you get, you'll want the longest, heaviest barrel you can get. The vast majority of competitors are using 24-26" barrels that finish between .9 to 1.25" at the muzzle. You can either get a heavy barrel, or spend bucku bucks on weights (or both). Your daughters might not be able to swing a 18-15lb rig around though (but they will appreciate the lack of recoil).

If you do wind up going Tikka, get the long barrel. They are notoriously slow anyway, so you'll want all the help with velocity you can get.

Now that I have dedicated 6/6.5 rigs for PRS and various games, I do still want a 223 for fun and will build one as soon as the action I want comes out with that bolt face. But, I'll have way more realistic expectations of what it can and cannot do, and still would never recommend trying to learn on one. 22LR right to 6/6.5 is the sensible path.