Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

[Onemoretime]

I remember reading a WHILE back, something about drawbacks using a semi auto for the tactical precision rifle matches. Can't remember where I read it...

Something about making the weapon "safe" while moving from position to position. Where with the bolt rifle you are simply required to leave the bolt open and with the Semi Auto you would be required to lock the bolt to the rear and (maybe?) remove the magazine?

Resulting in lost time and having to go back to police up live rounds dropped during the process. Ending with most feeling that the bolt rifle had an advantage because of the rules.

With George's GAP-10 Match Rifle idea cooking... this made me think about this again.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

Not too big of a problem. Just run the mags with the required number of rounds and it will lock itself back on last round in mag. Then when you get to your next station, you put a fresh mag in and get back to work. The speed of the follow up shots offsets the manipulation of changing mags. All in all, bottomfeeders are equal to the real rifles with manually operated bolts. Not that I favor one or the other?

 

[mattmcg]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

For anybody to allow and support a gas gun in competition and require that a competitor must maintain the BCG in a locked back position for transitions is ridiculous.

That is exactly what the safety is for. Safety engaged during the transition should be more than acceptable. If an MD doesn't allow safety on transition types of rules for gas guns, then he/she is biased against gas guns or simply isn't supporting them properly as part of their match. If that's the case, and you want to shoot a gas gun, find another match or fall in line with shooting a bolt gun since the rules are obviously biased.

I personally think George and crew are onto something (no surprise there as they are always on it). Innovation from the bolt gun to the semi-auto platforms WILL happen in competition as the equipment becomes ready for prime time. With the more complex systems, more engineering is involved to deliver performance commensurate with the simple bolt gun.

Personally, I was very appreciative of the rule set at the OR Sniper Challenge in this regard even though I shot a bolt gun. The gassers were lighting it up for that match......

 

[Mustafa]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

Matt, I know at RO matches they require the bolt locked back, not because the safety doesn't work, but because it is a highly visable indicator that the rifle is incapable of firing. Bolt guns are required to have the bolts up, whether they have safeties or not because again, it is a visual indication that it cannot go off. Plus, the safties on AR's can easily be switched from safe to fire by rubbing on equip. I've had it happen to me a few times, luckily with no adverse effects, but it'd really suck to have your safety come off and a round fire when it shouldn't because you didn't just lock the bolt back before moving. Bad way to end a match!

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

I agree, flip on the safety and move. A lot of what we do at comps is based on a combat scenario, when a ground pounder moves from one room to another he doesn't remove the mag and lock the bolt back. If the combat shooters IPSC IDPA three gunners can run around like they do and not kill everyone in a 3 mile radius I think we can do it safely.

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, flip on the safety and move. A lot of what we do at comps is based on a combat scenario, when a ground pounder moves from one room to another he doesn't remove the mag and lock the bolt back. If the combat shooters IPSC IDPA three gunners can run around like they do and not kill everyone in a 3 mile radius I think we can do it safely. </div></div>

I personally agree with this ^^ but I've heard that the standard rule is "bolt to the rear" or up in the case of a bolt gun.

I've thought about the possibility of loading the rifle with the required rounds per stage and doing a mag change at each stage/station. I haven't competed at a precision match as of yet so I was wondering if there was an answer I hadn't thought of since George is obviously considering shooting one.

 

[shane45]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

I havent shot any sniper comps but I have shot some 3 gun style comps. The thing about the 3 gun style comps was that the muzzle was always in a safe direction. I always assumed that in sniper comps the transitions were requiring movement where the muzzle could not always be pointed down range thus the open bolt requirement.

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

We down in Phoenix allow semi-autos to put the safety on and move. I think other match directors dont do this because not all shooters are equal. Some don't have the concept of taking their finger out of the trigger guard and run and sometimes its hard to tell if a competitor puts their safety on. With that said, we'll continue to run and gun with safety's on.

I think it helps most of us here in PHX have a background in 3 gun.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

yeah i have a bit of time on gas guns and shot this last PMG, it was a slight hassle but nothing that impeaded me to remove source and put bolt back. I completely know the reason they do it so i have no issues, we would like to think all people shooting these matches would be equal but that is not the reality.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

the problem with a bolt gun is that the bolt won't stay back if you are moving much, it slides forward, so in the up position is more realistic

with AR platform , open is best , i have seen personally, in a match a shooter finish a stage and forget to clear a AR, mag was removed but last round loaded was still in the chamber, and began moving,

safeties fail, , but the nice part about the AR is it's way easier to mechanically operate and show clear, remove the mag, etc., and the bolt LOCKS back

running and gunning introduces stress and accidents happen;

this year more LE swat officers were shot in training than in line of duty

 

[adam1122]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

I agree....as a swat guy we definately were never required to have the bolt back and safety engaged when moving.

The two most important rules I was taught when moving and shooting is that
1. Barrel is always pointed in a safe direction unless you are firing at a target, Muzzle sweeping someone will get your ass tossed off of a team if you become known as a safety liability
2. Safety is engaged anytime you are not on the line or preparing to immediately start engaging targets and finger is ALWAYS off the trigger until a target pops and then its finger on the trigger, disengage safety and engage.

Military and LE guys are mostly taught that their finger is the safety (and yes, accidents do happen and people get killed in training but its and unfortunate reality so thats why you train..over and over).

You should always know what condition your rifle is in...bolt gun or AR. Even down to the round count you have left at any one time. If you can't call your last round before it leaves the chamber you might want to do some basic training on counting rounds as you shoot them. That way you never run out of ammo.

Shooting a 3 gun course or IPSC course is different only in that you have to follow there rules...bolt or action is required to be back when moving then learn to do it effeciently. Either way, know the rounds left in the gun at all times and get your finger off the trigger and muzzle in a safe direction. Safe your weapon and move. Just don't whine about the rules...they are what they are for safety reasons and everybody has their two cents on folks running around with rounds in the chamber and just a safety on.

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

I don't think anyone is "whining" just stating their opinions.

I was just asking about what techniques are used when running a semi-auto vs. a bolt gun. Not complaining about the rules.

Although, in a perfect world where everyone is a pro we would run it like we would for real. We do not live in a perfect world. I've been to enough IDPA events to have seen loads of guys/gals who are there to "try it out".

Safety is paramount, I don't want my obituary to read, "died while standing on deck at a firearms competition".

So far, the best seems to be... "load the required number of rounds for the stage and drop the mag/place on safe before moving."

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

Shot several comps with a Larue OBR, usually got at least high 308. Most required mag out, bolt back, no big deal. You have such an advantage with the gas gun anyway, that ain't no thing as we would say.

Being able to stay on the gun, watch trace and impact, correct and reshoot, beats running the bolt everytime.

Accuracy of the better gassers gives up little to any bolt gun other than a pure bench rifle.

Mag capacity is better on the gassers, some comps ask you to limit rounds in mag, others don't.

Timed or par events, gassers finish faster every time.

First for real, ready to shoot 6.5 CM or 6.5x47Lap in a sub MOA gas gun is gonna make it very hard to shoot a bolt gun in comps, all rules the same for both rifles, forget about changes for gas vs bolts, the advantages of the gas gun outwiegh the "inconvenience" of dropped rounds or having to lock the bolt back. You have to drop mag and open bolt guns, no difference there. Gas gun, might even be a bit faster to make hot again.

rumour has it, Larue is testing the 6.5x47 already. Not as simple as changing tube and going to the range.

 

[Sumpter Steve]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

Our 2010 Oregon Sniper Challenge was won by "NOMAD" who was shooting a POF. It has more to do with the driver than the gun.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

they should just have zero tolerance for errors in muzzle control and call it good. you fuck up and your done for the day possibly sit out a few matches and think about what you did.

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
with AR platform , open is best , i have seen personally, in a match a shooter finish a stage and forget to clear a AR, mag was removed but last round loaded was still in the chamber, and began moving,

safeties fail, , but the nice part about the AR is it's way easier to mechanically operate and show clear, remove the mag, etc., and the bolt LOCKS back

running and gunning introduces stress and accidents happen;

this year more LE swat officers were shot in training than in line of duty

</div></div>

If the chamber wasn't checked, shame on the RO. Millions of rounds go down range during 3 gun matches where there is more running and gunning than any precision rifle match and very few accidents happen.

This isn't bashing on cops, please don't take it that way, but most can't shoot or don't have the discipline competition shooters have. They never have to practice the 180 rule like competitors. Its unfortunate any of them get shot by themselves, team mates or bad guys.

 

[mattmcg]

Re: Semi Auto in Tactical Precision Rifle Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mustafa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Matt, I know at RO matches they require the bolt locked back, not because the safety doesn't work, but because it is a highly visable indicator that the rifle is incapable of firing. Bolt guns are required to have the bolts up, whether they have safeties or not because again, it is a visual indication that it cannot go off. Plus, the safties on AR's can easily be switched from safe to fire by rubbing on equip. I've had it happen to me a few times, luckily with no adverse effects, but it'd really suck to have your safety come off and a round fire when it shouldn't because you didn't just lock the bolt back before moving. Bad way to end a match! </div></div>

Notice that my message was specifically about transitions during a stage. Once the buzzer goes off, the shooter has converted from a safe bolt locked back and chamber open (or flag in) to a "ready to shoot" mode. If a transition occurs while shooting the COF, then a safety should be more than adequate as all other safety protocols are already in effect (no breaking 180, finger out of trigger until firing, etc.)

Prior to and after shooting the COF, bolt locked back (with or without chamber flag) should be the standard protocol as it is with a bolt gun.

At Norcal steel matches, we run an offhand box drill where a shooter must shoot a 200 yard target while standing and once hit, transition to a second box to hit a second 200 yard target offhand. Once both are hit, then the shooter drops to prone to finish the round count at a target 400+ yards away. If the shooter misses the offhand target, they must go back and forth transitioning between boxes until both are hit or time runs out. With the barrel already down range and COF safety protocols in place, a safety here on a semi-auto is equivalent to a bolt to the rear bolt-gun.