Send it electr. Leveling device -longrangearms

[Mackay]

Dear folks,

I was about to order one of these for my upcoming rifle. However since I am not an American citizen and living in ( Western and thus the civilized part of ) Europe, and as a matter of fact, we are USA’s allies, they will not ship it.

They are searching for a distributor who is willing to “ITAR” the device. Is this some kind of investigation to determine if the product should be able to be exported or not?

I am aware of ITAR, but it seems like anything that can be hung onto a rifle, one way or another, seems to be an ITAR regulated product these days.

Sometimes these regulations seem to be out of proportion, especially because of the freaking cool gadgets you guys have access to

If you are or know someone who have some knowledge about these regulations, or how to get this thing “ITARretard” please share them.

I am definitely not requesting someone to trespass ITAR, but I am just curious about your thoughts!

America first, let the Dutch be second

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Technically the device would fall under Catergory I, Subsection h of the USML Sec 121.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/121.1

This would require it to have an approved export permit from DDTC so the term "Willing to ITAR" would refer to someone completing the export license paperwork for you. That would require an import permit from Dutch Government or a statement from Dutch officials saying that no import permit required for such item.
The DDTC will charge the exporter (whom submits the export license and all other supporting documents) $250..they will then add their fees so sending single controlled items is not worth the trouble and cost 99% of the time.

However...There is a "small parts exemption" in which if the accessory item is valued at $100 WHOLESALE cost on a single transaction then it is exempt from requiring an export license and can just ship NLR (No license required).
Please see below link for exemption statute and information...
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/123.17

Maybe the WHOLESALE cost is under $100, I do not know what their cost breakdowns are.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mackay]

That’ a thorough answer, thanks for the input.

Their selling price is 229usd / Pce, so am export license is likely to be required.

These devices do not require permits of any kind to possess in The Netherlands, however they are not available. I think if I could import a couple of units, they would sell easily, but that is not my intention.

I will study your web links, to see if possibilities can be created or arranged.

If not Then I might see if I can get an export permit for 10-15 pcs for reselling. But I am afraid that reselling is prohibited by US law....

Difficult matters......

 

[Mackay]

Sorry for some of the grammar, I am not a native speaker

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Reselling is not prohibited as long as you do not re-export them without prior approval.

You could always suggest and/or ask (You may be surprised whether they know it or not) if they have thought about filing a commodity jurisdiction request in which they are requesting that product be removed from under DDTC ITAR control and placed under EAR Department of Commerce control. Then essentially no license is required for 98% of the countries in the world.
BUT they would then have to remove anything that says "Military" etc etc.

Edited To Add:
If you have to go the export license route then just do a license for a hundred or so and make agreement with company that you pay for each product before shipment but not pay for all of them at once because you want them shipped as needed.
They would just file in the AES database as to how many shipped at each time until export license quantity is met. The export license will be valid for at least 1 year. Typically they are valid up until the destination countries import permit expires but you do not need import permit so DDTC would then control the expiration of the export permit.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mackay]

Thanks again for posting.
I have shared the comments with LRA through email, I hope you don’t mind.

Maybe it will help!

 

[MarinePMI]

@THEIS ,

I'm really reaching the depth of my knowledge here, but couldn't the company also apply for a "Dual Use" exemption (since civilians here also use it, not just military)?

 

[Mackay]

Somthing like that rushes through my mind also. In my work we see just that: dual-use restrictions when exporting certain goods to designated regions or countries.

Unfortunately the paperwork is performed by an external company, and I can’t afford their hourly rates for a personal purchase. Even if a dozen items would be purchased it would lead to a significant increase per unit

As said: I hope LRA looks into this topic, since I can imagine that minimum one of their employees is present on this forum.

Let’s get those items exported to friendly nations and spread these US manufactured products globally This should tempt some high ranking officials, don’t you think

 

[Bill Fuger]

Mackay, you are correct- we at LRA love Sniper’s Hide, and are members.

We are hoping to export outside the USA someday, unfortunately we cannot until we fully complete the ITAR/Exporting process.

THEIS, I personally wasn’t aware of the potential for filing a commodity jurisdiction request. Thank you for taking the time to post! I’m going to pass all this information on to the person working the exporting details within LRA.

 

[Mackay]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the reply, please update once things are going to change

Thanks in advance for the effort!

As mentioned, I believe there is a potential overhere!

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Bill Fuger
If you or they have any questions regarding ITAR or the commodity jurisdiction whether it be a complete commercial jurisdiction or dual use exemption as @MarinePMI mentioned please feel free to contact me.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[308pirate]

If not Then I might see if I can get an export permit for 10-15 pcs for reselling. But I am afraid that reselling is prohibited by US law....

I don't know as much as Theis about ITAR, but this much I know: this isn't "our law". It's a multinational treaty (that's what the T in ITAR stands for), to which I'm pretty sure your country is a part of.

Obviously, every country has to enact national laws and regulations to implement the treaty's provisions within the countries themselves. But that is true of any treaty. I'm sure if you look, the Netherlands has a similar set of laws and regulations.

 

[Mackay]

308pirate, I think you are right about the treaty. And our legislation might be based on the same rule set as well. But it is less known or less obvious.

This might have something to do with the general consensus and pre-biased opinions towards guns and civilian possession hereof.

The US is, in most parts, very open minded in shooting and gun possession. This relates to the enormous aftermarket for gun related parts and items and therefor the uncountable number of direct references towards ITAR and export regulations.

I have not thought about it this way befor you described it in your post. Based on the same set of rules, traffic should be possible one way or another.

LRA already sent me an email and let’s see what will happen. Positive reactions from their side where mentioned and contributors of this post might be contacted by them if necessary.

Thanks again for all the help, time replies and effort.

 

[308pirate]

308pirate, I think you are right about the treaty. And our legislation might be based on the same rule set as well.

Oops, I was wrong. It IS an unilaterial US law.

I do know most western European countries have similar laws and regs, particularly Germany

 

[Mackay]

No problem, everyone has the right to make mistakes.....

 

[Mackay]

Hey LRA anarchy outdoors state regulations will change in July and export might be possible. Are you guys acting this quick ?

Regards!

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I would say that is incorrect.
Notice the Federal Register still has the Munitions List Categories I, II, and III as a "Proposed Rule" dated May 2018.
Meaning nothing has changed in regards to policy since then.
When the policy changes the Federal Register will be updated with an "R" for Rule and will provide effective date.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/search?conditions[agency_ids]=476&conditions[term]=ITAR&conditions[topics]=exports&order=newest

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mackay]

Still waiting on the “R” to show......

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Mackay

Here is the latest update as of yesterday

You will notice the following:
No effective Date
No Transition End Date
No Federal Register Final Rule Notices

DECCS Service Portal - U.S. Department of State

www.pmddtc.state.gov

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mackay]

@THEIS are those links you provided temporarily? I hoped to check in again, however I failed to do so.

Thanks in advance

 

[Steel+Killer]

I am not suggesting any laws be broken and my post is more to add a little humor to this thread and highlight how silly it is that some items make it on the ITAR list, but almost seems like you could take a little vacation to the US buy a couple units and rename them "Hang It" put them in your luggage and if asked say yea they help you hang pictures on the wall when the green light comes on you know its level. Maybe even add a couple regular torpedo levels with it for effect.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Nothing has formalized/finalized in regards to the USML Sec 121 Cat, I, II, III and their change of licensing provisions.

Notice the change over date is still TBD:

Article - DDTC Public Portal

www.pmddtc.state.gov

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mackay]

I am not suggesting any laws be broken and my post is more to add a little humor to this thread and highlight how silly it is that some items make it on the ITAR list, but almost seems like you could take a little vacation to the US buy a couple units and rename them "Hang It" put them in your luggage and if asked say yea they help you hang pictures on the wall when the green light comes on you know its level. Maybe even add a couple regular torpedo levels with it for effect.

Well, I like bending rules but some rules are not worth to try...... ITAR is definitely one I would ( and shall ) not mess with!

The risk-assesment is clear about it.
Still, I would love to have one of those thingies.

My non-electric leveller on my Spuhr mount is just a pain in the a.., since I am unable to see it once in shooting position.....

Just sit and wait obviously

 

[Mackay]

Hi,

Nothing has formalized/finalized in regards to the USML Sec 121 Cat, I, II, III and their change of licensing provisions.

Notice the change over date is still TBD:

Article - DDTC Public Portal

www.pmddtc.state.gov

Sincerely,
Theis

Thanks mate!

 

[Mackay]

Well, apparently no ITAR regulations after all, just the shopper which wasn’t able to ship overseas at the time. My level is well received and mounted on the AR temporarily. As mentioned the AXMC will be ordered soon!

 

[sharpdoug]

There is a cool optical effect with the position of your send it level. Keep both eyes open when you look through your Steiner. The led appears as if it’s inside the scope. It makes seeing the led easy and not having to pull your head away to see the level. I use mine like that all the time. Neat trick if it works for you. Good shooting.

 

[Mackay]

There is a cool optical effect with the position of your send it level. Keep both eyes open when you look through your Steiner. The led appears as if it’s inside the scope. It makes seeing the led easy and not having to pull your head away to see the level. I use mine like that all the time. Neat trick if it works for you. Good shooting.

I thought of that application that way myself, based on peripheral sight.

Unfortunately I can test it not any sooner than 3 weeks from now. However your use confirms my expectations, so successful use is expected. Keep you guys posted.

The ( british ) AXMC will show in December 2019 or Jan 2020. AINA AXMC is too much hassle and cost.

Also a 2011 mustang GT will be imported to NL shortly, eta q4 2019.

I will be importing my American dream to our rainy little country the coming months.