Do you need a chronograph to get your velocity to set up a ballistics app or can you shoot various distances and tweak numbers to figure the velocity?
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Setting up a Ballistics App
- Thread starter matchbook454
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Zero your rifle at 100.
Capture you zero conditions.
Use an app and the velocity from the box or website
Shoot at a target in the 500 yard range using the dope from the app.
have a spotter give you adjusted calls up or down moa or mil whatever you are using
Once you are vertically dialed in at that range, go back to the app and change the MV to match the adjusted drop
Verify at different ranges using the app dope after adjusment
Box mv 2688 fps
App say says up 3 mil @500y
You have spotter tell you to adjust down 0.3mil
Dead center 5 hits
Adjust MV up in app until it shows 2.7mil @ 500y
Test at 1000y if you can or any other longer and shorter distances.
Shoot a lot, Smile a lot!
Capture you zero conditions.
Use an app and the velocity from the box or website
Shoot at a target in the 500 yard range using the dope from the app.
have a spotter give you adjusted calls up or down moa or mil whatever you are using
Once you are vertically dialed in at that range, go back to the app and change the MV to match the adjusted drop
Verify at different ranges using the app dope after adjusment
Box mv 2688 fps
App say says up 3 mil @500y
You have spotter tell you to adjust down 0.3mil
Dead center 5 hits
Adjust MV up in app until it shows 2.7mil @ 500y
Test at 1000y if you can or any other longer and shorter distances.
Shoot a lot, Smile a lot!
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This works, but it's fundamentally flawed to a degree. It will give you reasonably accurate data for distances around there, but without truly calculating a BC you are just sort of "getting there" versus calculating your way there.
A muzzle velocity should give any ballistics calculator a starting point, along with the published BC. BC calculations (and other variable adjustments) are preferred over MV adjustments, by far.
You just do the same as close to 1.2 as possible and tune the BC no magic..
D.O.P.E. Is always more solid than a in the same conditions than a projection..
DOPE is, but a ballistic calculator isn't going to let you adjust MV to match the curve at multiple distances. A ballistics calculator isn't DOPE.
I.E: You might be dead on at 900 yards but high at 650 yards without a trued BC.
My point is that if you just shoot a KD and true off of that it's going to lead to disappointing results if you don't true the BC.
Don't confuse DOPE with a ballistics calculator.
DOPE is empirical data collected during repeatable conditions.
Ballistics calculators are tools that predict what DOPE should be based on the conditions. Two fundamentally different things.
I think you don’t understand....
Gravity, specifically how the solver uses speed is adjusted if your near dope (that’s what your shot has just become) is incorrect. BC needs time to scrub speed.. once your 400-600 drop on 100% range confirmed is adjust perfectly, you step it out and work the BC.. once trans you can step the BC “if” the solver allows for it. FFS, CB, and a host of others have DK, DC or DS modifiers to aline that curve as instability causes more drag and a departure from the predicted drop.
Sure you can over jack your BC and think your magneto or whatever chrono is accurate to what the solver expects, but while you can get away with it is fundamentally wrong.
Yes, it is always the best and how you tune your solver. You always work near to far, always.
Shoot it all in the very same condition preferably with out wind, write it down. Best to do it on paper..
Oh I entirely understand, no confusion in any of this... and I entirely agree. But, before you or I brought this up was it mentioned? It was not.
I merely questioned the fact that it was suggested (before we were involved) that you can fire at a KD, plug in the MV that matches and you are good to go from muzzle to a mile.
Then again, looking back at the OP's question it wasn't really asked so I guess technically I am off-topic with this.
I merely questioned the fact that it was suggested (before we were involved) that you can fire at a KD, plug in the MV that matches and you are good to go from muzzle to a mile.
Then again, looking back at the OP's question it wasn't really asked so I guess technically I am off-topic with this.
Thanks, no worries.. I read stuff and get turned around all the time..
For those just dropping in:
I think what seansmd was implying, is you test at 800-1000 or whatever nearest trans and if incorrect, after the MV was vetted, make BC mods to keep deal with the offset.. The rub hear is that with AB custom curves or Doppler curves, you need to then use the DK, DC, DS or whatever the app calls the curve fit tool, because you can't change the drag model.
I should have added i use the custom curve so no ability to true bc, and he wasn't asking about it too a mile I think. I'm a noob too, and was answering the need for a chrono, I don't think it gets you any closer than the published mv which both need trued it the bc trued.
My understanding is you are not load developing, evaluating consistentcy of factory ammo, or how it runs in your gun, it's just a starting point that gets you close at intermediate range. Then as @Diver160651 you start the trueing. I have not gone beyond 1000y yet so have not messed with DSF in the AB engine. I guess I would have at 800 reading above, the custom curve must have not needed it for my gun, and the Hornady eldm 140g as Diver had me all dialed in using the method above out to 1000y and all ranges closer.
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I use Field Firing Solutions (FFS) primarily these days, but ColdBore occasionally also just so stay familiar with it. Both require "older" Windows Mobile 5.X/6.X hardware though. Like a Trimble Nomad or Juno.
The Kestrel 5700 series is extremely popular solver. I think the hot ticket in the Android/iOS realms are Applied Ballistics, TRASOL and Ballistic AE. Maybe a few "Shooter" users out there. I've used all of these above and they do work. FFS builds on top of the ballistics engine by adding a whole slew of other features.
For example, here is an "introduction" that I did a while back on the platform.
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I use the 5700AB and the Android app, I also use the strelok pro for some better app features than the kestrel app offers. Since I moved to Hornady ammo i am now looking at their 4dof app to see how it all correlates.
I think they all share the same process @AIAW and @Diver160651 corrected me on above. You need "try" dope, the solvers, and then real dope to calibrate MV at an intermediate distance, then potentially calibrate the BC or custom curve out at the transonic distance.
It's amazingly complex, but these tools have greatly simplified it for me. And the support of folks here.
I think re-stating the process this Noob used with support, and corrected for my errors is a good thing:
- Zero your rifle at 100.
- Capture you zero conditions.
- Use an app
-velocity from the box or website
- BC or custom curve, from the box or in the app
- Shoot at a target in the 500 yard range using the dope from the app.
- Have a spotter give you adjusted calls up or down moa or mil whatever you are using
- Once you are vertically dialed in at that range, go back to the app and change the MV to match the adjusted drop
- This is what I forgot: Thanks @AIAW & @Diver160651
- dial out to just before transonic or Mach 1.2 for your gun/ammo combination, for my gun Strelok says this is over 1200 yards which I haven't shot yet
- Verify at this distance using the app dope if adjustment is needed, for the Kestrel I believe this is the DSF
- AB also suggest you do this at the 0.9 mach distance as well.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/BallisticCalibration.pdf
"The little things matter, a lot. You can just go out and shoot a group at 500 yards, take it as gold, and input it in as a ballistic calibration. However there is a good rule to use when doing a ballistic calibration. Keep in mind, that this is contingent on you using the correct BC and drag model. If your trajectory is off in the supersonic range, then you need to true your muzzle velocity. If your trajectory is off in the transonic - subsonic range, then you need to true your BC. "
I think they all share the same process @AIAW and @Diver160651 corrected me on above. You need "try" dope, the solvers, and then real dope to calibrate MV at an intermediate distance, then potentially calibrate the BC or custom curve out at the transonic distance.
It's amazingly complex, but these tools have greatly simplified it for me. And the support of folks here.
I think re-stating the process this Noob used with support, and corrected for my errors is a good thing:
- Zero your rifle at 100.
- Capture you zero conditions.
- Use an app
-velocity from the box or website
- BC or custom curve, from the box or in the app
- Shoot at a target in the 500 yard range using the dope from the app.
- Have a spotter give you adjusted calls up or down moa or mil whatever you are using
- Once you are vertically dialed in at that range, go back to the app and change the MV to match the adjusted drop
- This is what I forgot: Thanks @AIAW & @Diver160651
- dial out to just before transonic or Mach 1.2 for your gun/ammo combination, for my gun Strelok says this is over 1200 yards which I haven't shot yet
- Verify at this distance using the app dope if adjustment is needed, for the Kestrel I believe this is the DSF
- AB also suggest you do this at the 0.9 mach distance as well.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/BallisticCalibration.pdf
"The little things matter, a lot. You can just go out and shoot a group at 500 yards, take it as gold, and input it in as a ballistic calibration. However there is a good rule to use when doing a ballistic calibration. Keep in mind, that this is contingent on you using the correct BC and drag model. If your trajectory is off in the supersonic range, then you need to true your muzzle velocity. If your trajectory is off in the transonic - subsonic range, then you need to true your BC. "
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Fyi, ammo spec is based off manufacturers test rifle in specific conditions. My measured MV was around 100-130 fps slower than what the ammo box stated.
Get out and shoot as many distances as possible. Nothing beats good dope.
Get out and shoot as many distances as possible. Nothing beats good dope.
I run CB on a Windows Phone (Nokia) and not on the Trimble, which I've sold centuries ago. It's a very accurate app and feature-loaded like no other one. You cannot go wrong with it. Used to run FFS too, very good software but limited to a very old platform (and way expensive), CB does the same but better.
BTW; always measure your MV, fudging it is a bad idea.
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