Movie Theater Several videos on Extortion 17 Coverup

[steve podleski]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Extortion+17+Cover+Up&&view=detail&mid=E8161B8B11E4EC0CA004E8161B8B11E4EC0CA004&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=/videos/search?q=Extortion+17+Cover+Up&FORM=VDMHRS

I am almost finished reading the book. Despite being very repetitive (it is written by a JAG lawyer making a case for the gold star families), it is worth reading.

 

[HeavyAssault]

BS flag on the lawyer......There's not ONE CH-47 airframe that's NOT been upfitted/updated to current ( or at least at that time of incident) model configuration. Sure the "original" backbone of the airframe might have been a -47C, but it was WAY long ago changed to the current model. That's been common practice across multiple airframes USA and USAF.

Now I was told back in the day that the CH-46 "Phrogs" of the USN were never "updated" from their original build years. So those USN aircraft which might be a 1960's airframe would STILL carry a 1960's tail number but could have been modded with updated avionics and other systems.

 

[steve podleski]

BS flag on the lawyer......There's not ONE CH-47 airframe that's NOT been upfitted/updated to current ( or at least at that time of incident) model configuration. Sure the "original" backbone of the airframe might have been a -47C, but it was WAY long ago changed to the current model. That's been common practice across multiple airframes USA and USAF.

Now I was told back in the day that the CH-46 "Phrogs" of the USN were never "updated" from their original build years. So those USN aircraft which might be a 1960's airframe would STILL carry a 1960's tail number but could have been modded with updated avionics and other systems.

What BS are you talking about?

Special ops use the MH47 which is a totally different bird piloted by specially-trained pilots and crew. The argument is that Extortion 17 went into a hot LC using a basically a passenger/cargo bus.

PS. Are the CH-47s, that you mentioned, equipped with black boxes?

 

[HeavyAssault]

The lawyer claimed the ACFT in question was "1962 vintage", "very slow", and "decades obsolete"....check 2:11 in the video.

First: ALL the twin rotor helicopters used are a CH-47 helicopter given the name Chinook. MH-47 is a different "build out" of the same basic CH-47 hull/design.
Second: Most all modern US Army helicopters have "black boxes".
Third: The basic operation of the MH-47 isn't SO significantly different than the "regular" Army CH-47. Cause NO pilot in the US Army can go to US Army flight school to learn how to fly an MH-47. They only learn the MH-47 operational specifics after being assessed and selected for a position in 160th. So when a "regular" Army pilot wants to join 160th they can only do so with basic airframe knowledge and qualifications already completed. Which is either the OH-(-6, -58)platforms, UH-60, or CH-47. I think there are some guys that try to come over from the AH-64 platforms, but rarely do.

The argument is that Extortion 17 went into a hot LC using a basically a passenger/cargo bus.

Well.....we are SOAR.....that's what we do. BUT....160th was not flying that mission if I recall correctly.

Setting the record straight: Myths and misinformation about Extortion 17

The 6 August, 2011 downing of Extortion 17 has continued to make international headlines years after the terrible tragedy. This continued attention is due

sofrep.com

I'm not saying the above link is 100% accurate but it points out several issues with certain claims.

 

[steve podleski]

The lawyer claimed the ACFT in question was "1962 vintage", "very slow", and "decades obsolete"....check 2:11 in the video.

First: ALL the twin rotor helicopters used are a CH-47 helicopter given the name Chinook. MH-47 is a different "build out" of the same basic CH-47 hull/design.
Second: Most all modern US Army helicopters have "black boxes".
Third: The basic operation of the MH-47 isn't SO significantly different than the "regular" Army CH-47. Cause NO pilot in the US Army can go to US Army flight school to learn how to fly an MH-47. They only learn the MH-47 operational specifics after being assessed and selected for a position in 160th. So when a "regular" Army pilot wants to join 160th they can only do so with basic airframe knowledge and qualifications already completed. Which is either the OH-(-6, -58)platforms, UH-60, or CH-47. I think there are some guys that try to come over from the AH-64 platforms, but rarely do.



Well.....we are SOAR.....that's what we do. BUT....160th was not flying that mission if I recall correctly.

Setting the record straight: Myths and misinformation about Extortion 17

The 6 August, 2011 downing of Extortion 17 has continued to make international headlines years after the terrible tragedy. This continued attention is due

sofrep.com

I'm not saying the above link is 100% accurate but it points out several issues with certain claims.

Correct, the pilots were National Guard; co-pilot with 20yrs experience flying the Chinook and pilot with about 2 years.

The reason that CH47D were now used to transport SpecOps missions is that the Obama Administration decided to increase their missions by a factor of 2 or 3 and there were not enough MH47 to support all those extra missions.

Regarding your attachment about myths: it would be interesting to discuss each 'myth' but I will concentrate on one 'myth', item13 "Restrictive rules of engagement (ROE) led to the downing of Extortion 17:In order for any American or coalition forces to fire upon suspected enemy personnel in Afghanistan at that time, those suspected enemy personnel must first display hostile intent, and friendly forces needed to positively identify (PID) that hostile intent. No friendly forces—in the air or on the ground—even knew of the two enemy fighters who each shot at Extortion 17, so therefore could never have positively identified hostile intent. The only realistic way for American forces to have eliminated all potential threats in the Tangi Valley would have been to use a large nuclear warhead like the W88, which would have also killed the American forces already on the ground. The enemy fighters were by chance in the right place at the right time, and got a lucky shot."

The sensor operator on the supporting circling AC130 was monitoring the landing zone and saw these two squirters rallying enemies from nearby buildings and she asked for permission to fire and take out these threats several times and was denied and she even asked for aborting the mission. And the preposterous claim that it would take a nuke to remove hostile forces in the area makes me doubt the veracity of the author.

I have put a request to hold the book on these 'myths' and see who the authors were. I suspect apologists for the Obama administration, who leaked that Seal Team 6 killed bin Laden putting their families in jeopardy, and his military ROE policies.

 

[HeavyAssault]

Well I can't speak for the sensor operator nor will I attempt to dig into all the truths and lies.
With that said one needs to learn to listen to what people say, then dig up OTHER ways to discover an honest statement.

Maybe the -47 guys were not monitoring the radio calls, maybe they didn't have the correct radios to monitor the calls, to hear the AC-130 reports about the enemy on the ground. You might think they are going to be "tied" into the Net but not always.
Not to mention the mission profile of landing in AFG just about anywhere included dust and dirt...hence a brown-out. Either under NVGs or broad daylight it is nothing fun to be involved in. So it's even possible they were more focused on the landing profile along with the other crew members that they were not ever going to see anyone on the ground.

It was horrible all the way around, could there be some sort of "pay out" to terrorists...maybe. We will never know.

 

[steve podleski]

"It was horrible all the way around, could there be some sort of "pay out" to terrorists...maybe. We will never know."

I'm not willing to go that far but I believe the usual government coverup fubar for deadly (to our troops) ROE policies and rush to accomplish missions by disastrous planning and use of inadequate equipment.

 

[HeavyAssault]

but I believe the usual government coverup fubar for deadly (to our troops) ROE policies and rush to accomplish missions by disastrous planning and use of inadequate equipment.

So what "inadequate equipment" was used again??

 

[steve podleski]

So what "inadequate equipment" was used again??

Not using a MH47.

Are you a MH47 crewman? Did those birds have black boxes.

 

[HeavyAssault]

LOL....Not using an MH-....that's funny. Cause you want to say that ONLY the MH-47 of 160th can do that mission or support that level of personnel??? But you were just speaking to the qualifications and experience of the crew. Speaking to terms on crew experience and level of ability is a whole other conversation.

I was on both the CH-47 and MH-47 aircraft back in the day.
Let's clear up the term "black box". First off there are black boxes, and flight data recorders. Two WAY different things. "Black boxes" are more reasonably know as Avionics. They are all the nice little electronics things that are enclosed in "black boxes". Flight data recorders are an Avionics system BUT they are usually identified by special markings and highly visible orange colorings. I want to say they may even have some sort of reflective taping on them as well.

Flight data recorders are not new to the aviation spectrum.

As the military updated or modified airframes they might have added flight data recorders to the avionics systems. I don't recall if the CH-47D models had ever gotten flight data recorders. I'm pretty certain the newer CH-47F models are now using a flight data recorder as the whole cockpit was update to be a "glass cockpit" with the Multi-Function Displays.

With all that there is always some sort of radio, GPS, tracking system, whatever....that can be integrated into any airframe. It's not rocket science, it just takes some engineer to get it planned out properly, and tested of course.

 

[steve podleski]

"LOL....Not using an MH-....that's funny. Cause you want to say that ONLY the MH-47 of 160th can do that mission or support that level of personnel???"

So what's the difference between a MH47 and the CH40D?

 

[HeavyAssault]

I guess you need to be much more specific. Cause while the differences can be extensive, they can also be no different.

Does a BMW X3 have four wheels, an engine, a transmission, and a steering wheel?? Then it's no different than a Ford F350.
Can a BMW X3 haul 3,000 lbs of mulch inside?? No. Then it's WAY different than a Ford F350.
Can an F350 go 120MPH and handle with ease on corners?? No. Then it's way different than a BMW.

Not sure what aspect you are trying to cover. To fly in the air the two aircraft are the same. To haul a bunch of people around, they are the same. To land in an LZ, they are the same.

 

[steve podleski]

disregarding pilot ability:

which model is more survivable?
under enemy fire?
able to infiltrate a hot zone and survive more easily?
get to the landing zone more quickly?
able to fly in low viz conditions more easily?
able to suppress the landing zone more effectively?
able to determine a threat more easily?
able to communicate with supporting aircraft or ground troops or headquarters more easily?
able to fly/maneuver/control more easily?
able to take hits and fly more easily?

If there are no significant differences then why the MH40?

 

[HeavyAssault]

Able to suppress the landing zone more effectively?

Both of these are for all intent "cargo" aircraft. They are NOT designed to "suppress the landing zone" as to the same nature as an AC-130. Now with what types of weapons are typically carried on the aircraft as "crew served" weapons you can't disagree that a GE Mini-gun running 3k rounds of 7.62mm a minute can help.
Win: MH-47

which model is more survivable?
under enemy fire?
able to infiltrate a hot zone and survive more easily?
get to the landing zone more quickly?
able to fly in low viz conditions more easily?
able to communicate with supporting aircraft or ground troops or headquarters more easily?
able to fly/maneuver/control more easily?
able to take hits and fly more easily?

These are still WAY too broad.
Tie: CH-47 and MH-47

able to determine a threat more easily?

While a tad too broad. The avionics aspect of equipment on an MH-47 is more than capable but it does depend on what "threat" you are thinking.
Win: MH-47

 

[steve podleski]

...



While a tad too broad. The avionics aspect of equipment on an MH-47 is more than capable but it does depend on what "threat" you are thinking.
Win: MH-47

any threat by the ENEMY that want to shoot down a helo? (not a hurricane or some other force of nature).

BTW, from some website:
"The MH-47 differs from its CH-47 sister model with its incorporation of combat systems designed to make the helicopter more survivable on missions deep in enemy territory and during nighttime, low-level flight."

BTW:"...These are still WAY too broad."

concentrate on the words "...more EASILY"

 

[HeavyAssault]

I can engage any rotary aircraft with a .338 Lapua rifle....there's VERY few if any aircraft at all that would know it's about to go off.
String some high tensile wires in the right area that can get hung up in the rotor system......they aren't always going to know.

Now use an radar/laser guided missile/device.....they are going to know.

Any threat is still very broad.

That website statement is VERY broad as well. More survivable to you may not be to me. Is having 1,000 gallons of fuel a survival element?? Maybe others want a BBQ grill built into the airframe.

 

[steve podleski]

Wow. Talk about being evasive!!!

So there is not need for a MH40?

ok, let's stop playing games. WHEN would you fly a MH47 over a CH47?

 

[HeavyAssault]

BTW:"...These are still WAY too broad."

concentrate on the words "...more EASILY"

Still too broad....sorry but you are REALLY getting into really fine details.

 

[HeavyAssault]

Wow. Talk about being evasive!!!

So there is not need for a MH40?

ok, let's stop playing games. WHEN would you fly a MH47 over a CH47?

Not being evasive. Just trying to get you to realize there's A LOT more than just "can it do X better".

What mission are you trying to accomplish?? Cause your questions are...once again VERY broad.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Neither of those models/designations are any better at surviving the other when we are talking about a RPG up its ass end.

We should blame Reagan for the entire Afghanistan issue as it was partly his backroom deals with USSR as to why USSR left Afghanistan as it did back in 1989.

The irony of helicopter debates between avatar of a guy riding a horse and a guy with helicopter as avatar, lolol

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[steve podleski]

Still too broad....sorry but you are REALLY getting into really fine details.

and you want finer details in the que

Not being evasive. Just trying to get you to realize there's A LOT more than just "can it do X better".

What mission are you trying to accomplish?? Cause your questions are...once again VERY broad.

Nothing more to learn here so I am going to stop chasing a shiny object.

 

[HeavyAssault]

BTW we are S.O.A.R. We are supposed to be evasive. That's what we do. Do you want me to call you ahead of time to tell you we are landing with the hounds of hell??

 

[steve podleski]

Hi,

Neither of those models/designations are any better at surviving the other when we are talking about a RPG up its ass end.

We should blame Reagan for the entire Afghanistan issue as it was partly his backroom deals with USSR as to why USSR left Afghanistan as it did back in 1989.

The irony of helicopter debates between a guy riding a horse and a guy with helicopter as avatar, lolol

Sincerely,
Theis

What backroom deal?

 

[steve podleski]

BTW we are S.O.A.R. We are supposed to be evasive. That's what we do. Do you want me to call you ahead of time to tell you we are landing with the hounds of hell??

Yeah, I know, you would have kill me after divulging state secrets.

 

[steve podleski]

BTW we are S.O.A.R. We are supposed to be evasive. That's what we do. Do you want me to call you ahead of time to tell you we are landing with the hounds of hell??

You don't have to tell me. Afghan government spies probably did several times

 

[THEIS]

What backroom deal?

Hi,

Well, the VRA (Voluntary Restraint Agreement) for starters.
Ever wonder why the USA cannot get new model firearms from former Soviet Countries even though those companies were not even in existence back then.....because the VRA lists SPECIFIC firearms that are allowed into the USA from countries that were under USSR back then.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[HeavyAssault]

Yeah, I know, you would have kill me after divulging state secrets.

No, we like to give you a chance. We dump you in the desert. That way when they find you they all look at each other asking "How did he get out here and die?"

LMAO

It's not state secrets. It's as I stated earlier:

I can engage any rotary aircraft with a .338 Lapua rifle....there's VERY few if any aircraft at all that would know it's about to go off.
String some high tensile wires in the right area that can get hung up in the rotor system......they aren't always going to know.

Now use an radar/laser guided missile/device.....they are going to know.

Any threat is still very broad.

Using an analog system you could do damage to either airframe. Using something that is guided EACH has their own system to alert the crew.
Now maybe a CH-47 can't see/alert to some uber new CCP radar system while the MH-47 can alert. Now if you wanted to know what CCP system the MH-47 can alert on would get you a ride to the desert.

 

[roostercogburn98]

What’s going on here? Are the CH and the MH are so drastically different we are saying one will stop shit better than the other.

OP, if this is your argument then I suggest you go look at Takuh Gahr and that MH platform that was no less helpful in pulling Chapman off that mountain top after it was pummeled by enemy fire and RPGs. Those high altitudes are already overtaxing those aircraft lift capabilities wihthout coming under heavy fire and needing extra power to do evasive maneuvers. I don’t think an MH would have made ANY difference in the Extortion mission.

 

[HeavyAssault]

Yeah, I know, you would have kill me after divulging state secrets.

Just remember no matter what the stripper tells you, your IP address isn't hidden.

What’s going on here? Are the CH and the MH are so drastically different we are saying one will stop shit better than the other.

OP, if this is your argument then I suggest you go look at Takuh Gahr and that MH platform that was no less helpful in pulling Chapman off that mountain top after it was pummeled by enemy fire and RPGs. Those high altitudes are already overtaxing those aircraft lift capabilities wihthout coming under heavy fire and needing extra power to do evasive maneuvers. I don’t think an MH would have made ANY difference in the Extortion mission.

^^Yep. That's fine talk from a one-eyed fat man. LOL

 

[steve podleski]

What’s going on here? Are the CH and the MH are so drastically different we are saying one will stop shit better than the other.

OP, if this is your argument then I suggest you go look at Takuh Gahr and that MH platform that was no less helpful in pulling Chapman off that mountain top after it was pummeled by enemy fire and RPGs. Those high altitudes are already overtaxing those aircraft lift capabilities wihthout coming under heavy fire and needing extra power to do evasive maneuvers. I don’t think an MH would have made ANY difference in the Extortion mission.

I am aware of those incidents. The first two MH47's did survive: the one that dumped Roberts and the other that dropped the ST6 to retrieve Roberts were hit by RPGs and small arms and survived. The third MH47 that dropped the Rangers to help ST6 team did not because now Al Queda was fully aware.
That whole Taku Gohar operation was a fubar from the beginning.

 

[steve podleski]

Hi,

Well, the VRA (Voluntary Restraint Agreement) for starters.
Ever wonder why the USA cannot get new model firearms from former Soviet Countries even though those companies were not even in existence back then.....because the VRA lists SPECIFIC firearms that are allowed into the USA from countries that were under USSR back then.

Sincerely,
Theis

What does the VRA have to do with Reagan's backroom deal with the Soviets leaving Afghanistan?

 

[steve podleski]

Where do I say that one model can take a RPG hit better than another?

 

[roostercogburn98]

The third MH47 that dropped the Rangers to help ST6 team did not because now Al Queda was fully aware

And you don’t think those fuckheads were “fully aware” those or some aircraft were inbound to retrieve that element they were engaged with? That should be the stop talk point in this whole discussion. They KNEW what their equipment did to what we had by this mission time. They spent the first few years testing that to gather information on what equipment they had could do damage to our stuff.

 

[steve podleski]

And you don’t think those fuckheads were “fully aware” those or some aircraft were inbound to retrieve that element they were engaged with? That should be the stop talk point in this whole discussion. They KNEW what their equipment did to what we had by this mission time. They spent the first few years testing that to gather information on what equipment they had could do damage to our stuff.

"by fully aware" meant that the enemy called in reinforcements to surround the drop zone on 3 sides.

 

[HeavyAssault]

We had one aircraft take an RPG, thru the outer frame, thru the ammo can, and it's pieces were all over the place on the inside.

If I recall right the guys that got hit who had Roberts onboard took one to the aft pylon area and flew out. That might have been the same one as I described above.

Now here's why "survivability" is SO subjective. Rifle shots that hit the driveline....she's done. Shoot an RPG blow off the rear ramp....she's flying home.

There's flying home, then there's flying to a "more secure" LZ and landing. There's repairable damage, then there's we got to smoke it where it sits.

I busted my hump on 475.....RIP

 

[roostercogburn98]

I am aware of those incidents. The first two MH47's did survive: the one that dumped Roberts and the other that dropped the ST6 to retrieve Roberts were hit by RPGs and small arms and survived. The third MH47 that dropped the Rangers to help ST6 team did not because now Al Queda was fully aware.
That whole Taku Gohar operation was a fubar from the beginning.

The bird carrying Roberts did not survive. Call sign Razor 03 (the first bird) crash landed and the crew was picked up by Raxor 04 and returned to Firebase Gardez. Razor 04 was also rendered mission incapable but didn’t crash land.

 

[HeavyAssault]

That might have been 475. It wasn't so much as a "survivable" aircraft as it was deemed not able to be recovered. Cause we left one, got one back VIA the good ol' Russians.

I think it was a "rental" MI-26.....LOL

 

[lonegunman762x51]

They have been killing the killer over and over again. They had Oswald murdered before the press could get a good look at him or the story.

Why use a pile of crap 1962 airframe to fly them into their deaths? That is an easy answer, it had the highest frame hours of any helicopter in the region. When the military wants to destroy an airframe, they pick the oldest air frames first.

During Desert Storm, the USAF scoured air bases for the oldest bombs, we used thousands of WWII era bombs and worked hard to use them all up. We used B-52G's and flew them way past their phase hours to get the most out of them before they shitcanned them as part of the SALT treaty.

They had to kill these guys to stop them from cashing in on Osama's death or talking about how they found a STU-3 in Osama's house and the phone number to the Obama White House on speed dial. The guy who agreed to go along with the lies is probably the guy who is always on TV claiming he killed him.

Seriously, OBL was literally living in the town where the Pakistani military academy is located, living a hundred yards from their most powerful and well connected muslim leaders, people who directly support terrorism and kill Americans. It would be like finding him living West Point, New York. 100% chance something seedy as hell was going on.

 

[ubettcha]

 

[ubettcha]

Makes DJT's interview in 2000 about OBL being a boogeyman before 911 even more interesting. The media and Clinton wh had him as a worldwide threat. Yet the CIA with its massive budget couldn't find him. Even after CNN went to his cave and interviewed him lol

 

[akmike47]

View attachment 7714632

That picture on the right looks like it was made on photoshop from the left picture.

It's as shitty as the pic of his supposed corpse someone photoshopped.

 

[THEIS]

Cause we left one, got one back VIA the good ol' Russians.

I think it was a "rental" MI-26.....LOL

View attachment 7714481

Hi,

BUT....does it have a better survival rate and if so why was it not used for the rescue mission instead???

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[sinister]

An MH-47 is a vanilla Chinook with more stuff bolted on. It's still a Hook, it just has more accessories. It is NOT a flying armored vehicle.

RPGs and aircraft usually don't mix.

I saw a California National Guard Hook that another aircraft collided with in mid-air. Incredibly, it flew home. I believe it was rebuilt and returned to service

========

91-00234, Boeing D model kit number M3383, was a CH-47D helicopter. The U.S. Army acceptance date was 29 November 1991. As of 28 June 1998, 91-00234 had accumulated 918.1 D model hours and 4,124.1 total aircraft hours. 91-00234 was a conversion from the original C model Chinook 68-15814.

On 8 January 1991, 91-00234 was inducted into the D model program, converted, and initially assigned to Company G - "Delta Schooners", 3/140th, Army National Guard, located at Stockton, California.

On 11 February 1998, 91-00234 was involved in a mid-air collision with a civilian light aircraft. As of 1 January 2002, this aircraft was 33.14 years old. As of 13 February 1998, the last known location of 91-00234 was Stockton, California, assigned to Company G - "Delta Schooners", 3/140th, Army National Guard. Aircraft status: Flyable.

On February 11, 1998, at 1525 hours Pacific standard time, a Beech J35, N8343D, collided with a California Army National Guard Boeing CH-47D, S/N 91-0234, the flight lead ship of a two helicopter formation flight near Morgan Hill, California. The lead and trail aircraft were using the call signs Schooner 14 and Schooner 44, respectively. The Beech was destroyed and the certificated commercial pilot, the sole occupant, received fatal injuries. Schooner 14 sustained substantial damage; however, neither the pilot, copilot, nor the two flight engineers were injured.

The pilots of Schooner 14 and 44 reported that they both were on a heading of 004 degrees, cruising at 2,500 feet MSL, with an indicated airspeed of 115 knots, when the westbound Beech J35 collided with the lead ship. The pilot of Schooner 44 reported that he was 7 to 8 rotor disks to the rear of the Schooner 14 at the 5:30 position.

 

[HeavyAssault]

MH-47D aircraft were the "vanilla" CH-47Ds with cool guys stuff bolted ( in short) onto the airframe.
The newer MH-47E aircraft were purpose built S.O.A.R. aircraft not in any way like the CH-47D with the knowledge that some back bones were previous -47D aircraft.
I want to say of all the -47E models there were two that were true "new" backbones with no previous flight hours or maybe they were Italian CH-47Ds.

With the newer MH-47G variant those should all be new back bones with zero flight time at time of the builds if I recall.

We did have armor plates and such for the floor and cockpit seats. The side skins aren't bullet proof that's for sure. The -47E fuel tanks are huge with the ability to self seal from punctures, not 100% against all calibers. It's takes a big round to NOT self seal the fuel tanks.
If you were seated on the installed seats or sitting on the floor would say it's possible that rounds entering the fuel cell would not hit a person or enter the airframe. There's too many other variables of course. Again....the bigger the round the bigger the hole, the higher chance it gets thru to the inside the airframe.

@THEIS : We didn't have our awards points available on the S.O.A.R. AMEX to qualify for the "rescue mission" upgrade option.

We just used the other -47Es that were in country. Getting the people out wasn't the problem, lifting out another heavy aircraft was just a bit more than the mighty -47D or -47E could muster.

Below....475 before the decisions to let her RIP.