I was neck sizing new Lapua 6.5CM brass, just to get the necks nice and round for loading. Was using a Lee collet neck sizing die. I didn't think I needed to lube the cases just for neck sizing, but I'm thinking I guessed wrong. Pulled the neck right off one of the cases. Was I wrong in assuming I didn't need to lube when neck sizing only? Should I be concerned about the other cases I sized without lube? I need to get a new die and will lube from now on. Here's a pic of the carnage.
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Sheared Case Neck Off While Neck Sizing.
- Thread starter Paul_H
- Start date
Yes ... you were wrong. Best lube for hitting the internal on the neck is the Imperial Application Media with Dry Neck Lube. Puts a light layer of graphite on the internal of the neck, preventing exactly what you just experienced.
That's what I use when neck-mandreling independent of other sizing ... like with new brass. If I'm sizing cleaned and fired brass, I lube with Hornady One Shot case lube spray, setting brass on a cookie sheet at half-to-one inch intervals, and spraying at a 45 degree angle from all four directions. That lubes the inside of the neck sufficiently to allow body sizing and neck mandreling in sequence. BUT ... if you use the spray, you obviously need to clean (I wet tumble) prior to seating. If you use the dry lube Imperial stuff, you can seat without a cleaning cycle. Hope that makes sense.
Don't be discouraged. My best lessons are derived from my biggest f**k-ups.
I was neck sizing new brass right out of the box. I suspect I was using too much pressure. I can actually see on the case neck where the 4 petals of the collet made contact, because a little ridge was left on the brass between the petals.
I was running the die until it had pressure, pushed through that and continued to run the die until it bottomed out and came to a hard stop. Will try less pressure going forward. All I wan to do is take is make the neck opening round and remove any dents.
I was running the die until it had pressure, pushed through that and continued to run the die until it bottomed out and came to a hard stop. Will try less pressure going forward. All I wan to do is take is make the neck opening round and remove any dents.
No you don’t need lube. I’ve run thousands of rounds through lee collet dies no lube
The issue your having is the collet squeezes the case neck to the mandrel. There’s no expanding process. One reason the collet die is so efficient because it doesn’t overwork brass
Your trying to size factory sized brass where the inside of the case neck is less than the diameter of the outside of the mandrel. Essentially your seating the mandrel into the case like a bullet
Lapua case is probably .003” neck tension from the factory. In my experience most collet mandrels size to about .0015” neck tension
So you seated the mandrel of your die into your case neck and tore it apart coming back on the press. If you insist on doing this you’ll need to expand the necks first
Personally I run my first load of Lapua brass directly out of the box without touching the cases. If I get one that’s jacked up or notice different tension I’ll use it as a fouler or to get on paper before load testing
I run mine in a rcbs rock chucker. Set up so it applies just enough pressure on cam over to size the neck. It doesn’t take much. You’ll notice when you cam over there will be slight resistance. The resistance will get more as you screw the die down (in small increments 1/16 turn ish) but at some point the neck will stop sizing smaller. This is because the mandrel will only let it size down that far. Mine sizes with just the weight of the handle lowering.
If you apply to much pressure you’ll see the marks your referring to which are the collet fingers (slight marks are normal but not gouges) If you apply to much or continue to do what your currently doing you’ll blow the cap off the die. That’s it’s fail safe if you apply to much pressure
When you size once fired brass you’ll feel the initial resistance on the press which is the pin pushing the primer out. After that you’ll have no resistance until the press cams over or the ram gets to its upmost position depending on the press you have. This is the point where the sizing takes place.
Likely right now you have resistance on the way up because the mandrel is seating in the neck. *edit* Judging by your pic this is the case as there’s clearly brass the entire way up the mandrel
The issue your having is the collet squeezes the case neck to the mandrel. There’s no expanding process. One reason the collet die is so efficient because it doesn’t overwork brass
Your trying to size factory sized brass where the inside of the case neck is less than the diameter of the outside of the mandrel. Essentially your seating the mandrel into the case like a bullet
Lapua case is probably .003” neck tension from the factory. In my experience most collet mandrels size to about .0015” neck tension
So you seated the mandrel of your die into your case neck and tore it apart coming back on the press. If you insist on doing this you’ll need to expand the necks first
Personally I run my first load of Lapua brass directly out of the box without touching the cases. If I get one that’s jacked up or notice different tension I’ll use it as a fouler or to get on paper before load testing
I run mine in a rcbs rock chucker. Set up so it applies just enough pressure on cam over to size the neck. It doesn’t take much. You’ll notice when you cam over there will be slight resistance. The resistance will get more as you screw the die down (in small increments 1/16 turn ish) but at some point the neck will stop sizing smaller. This is because the mandrel will only let it size down that far. Mine sizes with just the weight of the handle lowering.
If you apply to much pressure you’ll see the marks your referring to which are the collet fingers (slight marks are normal but not gouges) If you apply to much or continue to do what your currently doing you’ll blow the cap off the die. That’s it’s fail safe if you apply to much pressure
When you size once fired brass you’ll feel the initial resistance on the press which is the pin pushing the primer out. After that you’ll have no resistance until the press cams over or the ram gets to its upmost position depending on the press you have. This is the point where the sizing takes place.
Likely right now you have resistance on the way up because the mandrel is seating in the neck. *edit* Judging by your pic this is the case as there’s clearly brass the entire way up the mandrel
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Oh and FYI on the decapping pin covered in brass,
Your 6.5 CM is likely small rifle primer brass
That pin on the collet die comes to size for flash holes for the large rifle primers. If you try to slide the decapping pin through a piece of your 6.5 brass it likely won’t freely pass through the hole (try it from the case head side of the brass) Then do the same through a 308 Lapua brass or large primer 6.5 piece of brass
My buddy got into the 6.5 game (I’m a 260 guy). Bought the 6.5 Lapua brass and lee collet die. I ended up chucking the mandrel in a drill press and turning the decapping pin down
Your 6.5 CM is likely small rifle primer brass
That pin on the collet die comes to size for flash holes for the large rifle primers. If you try to slide the decapping pin through a piece of your 6.5 brass it likely won’t freely pass through the hole (try it from the case head side of the brass) Then do the same through a 308 Lapua brass or large primer 6.5 piece of brass
My buddy got into the 6.5 game (I’m a 260 guy). Bought the 6.5 Lapua brass and lee collet die. I ended up chucking the mandrel in a drill press and turning the decapping pin down
@hafejd30, I never thought of it that way. I had found a couple of cases with dents in the mouth and that started me down this path. Was just playing around and noticed a couple of more things. First, my Lapua brass is small primer and the decapping pin on the Lee collet die is apparently made for large primer. I know because I how have 35 pieces of brass with wrecked primer holes. At a buck a piece right now for brass that kind of hurts!
I also noticed that part of the sliding die was hanging up in the mouth of the die. Right where Lee stamped their name and size info. Got that polished down so it slides smooth now. Tried running some large primer Hornady brass I had and it decapped and neck sized just as smooth as could be.
Lots of lessons learned for me. This is my first foray into loading rifle. Have done lots of pistol, but finding out there are some more nuances to rifle.
Thank you all for the great feedback.
I also noticed that part of the sliding die was hanging up in the mouth of the die. Right where Lee stamped their name and size info. Got that polished down so it slides smooth now. Tried running some large primer Hornady brass I had and it decapped and neck sized just as smooth as could be.
Lots of lessons learned for me. This is my first foray into loading rifle. Have done lots of pistol, but finding out there are some more nuances to rifle.
Thank you all for the great feedback.
The lee collet die gets a bad rap from people who don’t know how to correctly use it. It’s an excellent design and produces very concentric ammo with no need to lube
Lee collet or Redding bushing are my go to dies. The Redding are a bit easier to learn on and produce equally as concentric ammo
When I get mine I initially take it apart, check for burs, lube and set up for sizing.
Lee collet or Redding bushing are my go to dies. The Redding are a bit easier to learn on and produce equally as concentric ammo
When I get mine I initially take it apart, check for burs, lube and set up for sizing.
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I'm in no way blaming the Lee die for any my problems. Only issue with the die was the rough spot where the collet comes through the die body, and I doubt very much that was the source of any of my issues.
All my problems have been self induced by not fully understanding the implications of sizing new brass and not thinking to check the primer size. Going forward I won't try and size new brass. For the primer pin I'll buy a spare and chuck it up in the lathe and sand it down to fit the small primer pockets; unless I can order for Lee an already sized one.
All my problems have been self induced by not fully understanding the implications of sizing new brass and not thinking to check the primer size. Going forward I won't try and size new brass. For the primer pin I'll buy a spare and chuck it up in the lathe and sand it down to fit the small primer pockets; unless I can order for Lee an already sized one.
You can order mandrels from lee. I’m not sure what they cost. You can also turn down yours or order custom sized mandrels if you want to adjust neck tension
Honestly if the factory collet die doesn’t work out then I’d spend the money on a Redding bushing die before ordering custom mandrels. As you’ll likely have just as much $$ into the lee
The Redding is a better die in my opinion and the bushings allow you to control neck tension. But the lee do work well for the $$
Honestly if the factory collet die doesn’t work out then I’d spend the money on a Redding bushing die before ordering custom mandrels. As you’ll likely have just as much $$ into the lee
The Redding is a better die in my opinion and the bushings allow you to control neck tension. But the lee do work well for the $$
For fired brass I'm not sure yet if I'm going to neck size only or FL resize. I keep reading compelling arguments from both camps. I'll end up experimenting with both I think, I do like to tinker.
I looked and can order mandrels from Lee for $3-$4 depending on if it's the FL or neck sizing collet die, so not too much money to get another pin and modify for the smaller primer pocket. Will experiment with the Redding bushing dies once I pick some up.
I looked and can order mandrels from Lee for $3-$4 depending on if it's the FL or neck sizing collet die, so not too much money to get another pin and modify for the smaller primer pocket. Will experiment with the Redding bushing dies once I pick some up.
I do both
Neck size with lee collet then shoulder bump shoulder .002” with Redding body die every few reloads. I’ve had great results doing this
Best results and most consistent will be fl sizing every time. .0015-.002” neck tension and bumping the shoulder .0015-.002” works for me and keeps brass working to a minimum
Neck size with lee collet then shoulder bump shoulder .002” with Redding body die every few reloads. I’ve had great results doing this
Best results and most consistent will be fl sizing every time. .0015-.002” neck tension and bumping the shoulder .0015-.002” works for me and keeps brass working to a minimum
I full-length size with Redding Type-S Bushing dies (sizing the neck), and then mandrel with a Lee Wilson Expanding Mandrel Die (expanding the neck). Both processes are lubed, and the cases are annealed (AMP) prior to any work on them. My results have been excellent with very consistent neck tension. Not sure how you'd do either of these things without being properly lubed ... but (a) to each his own, and (b) YMMV.
Thanks Rusty for sharing how you do you brass. I'm still working through new brass, but did just get my AMP so it's waiting to be put to use. I have a FL Redding Type-S and a the L.W. expanding mandrel die on the way and will also give your method a try to see how my results are. I will most definitely be lubricating my brass for those operations.
After lubing and sizing are folks running brass back through a tumbler before trimming and deburring? That seem like the most logical sequence, but my pile of wrecked brass shows my logic may be a bit off these days...
After lubing and sizing are folks running brass back through a tumbler before trimming and deburring? That seem like the most logical sequence, but my pile of wrecked brass shows my logic may be a bit off these days...
Definitely yes ... I wet-tumble (again) after all sizing is done, and prior to seating. Only caveat being brand new never-fired brass that I mandrel with dry-lube ... that doesn't require cleaning prior to trimming and seating.
I've used my Lee collet neck sizers thousands of times & never had this. I'm not sure what could cause this other than the sleeve not dropping back down to release the neck. I have had some get caught as I was pushing the case up into the die of the neck if the OD was larger than usual & a couple of those were sort of stuck for a bit on the down stroke. There was deeper sleeve markings on the outside of the neck with those cases so I just assumed that the larger neck OD was the culprit.
Exactly what HAFE said.
I have used Lee Collet Neck Die on 1000s pieces Hornady and ADI brass no problem at all.
No lube, it's fast and makes very accurate loads (til you need to bump shoulder to chamber brass).
Your OP appears to show that the Lapua brass is "crimping" at the neck to the mandrel stem and damaging the SRP flash hole with a Large Primer sized decapping pin.
I've just been down the "chuck the decap stem in drill and turn it down" so I can deprime fired Lapua brass(6BRX and 6Dasher) with a Lee Universal Depriming die.
FYI - for Lapua Small Primer flash holes aim for a deprime pin diameter appx .057-.061" to cleanly go through Lapua SRP without damage
If the neck is too soft the collet will cold weld the neck to the decapping rod. I have torn a neck off as well. It has nothing to do with the collet failing to release the neck.
I’ve loaded tens of thousands of rounds with Lee collets and I never lube the necks.
Either the taper seized (always clean, polish and lube the tapers in the die, it’s set incorrectly or something is off with the die or brass.
Either the taper seized (always clean, polish and lube the tapers in the die, it’s set incorrectly or something is off with the die or brass.
Yea
If the pin is stuck in the primer hole it would hold the top piece down keeping the collet tight on the neck and those collets can hold REALLY tight!
I believe I had two things going on at once. First, I did not realize the decapping pin was too large. Luckily I only ruined about 30 pcs of brass this way. I have a pin and will turn down the decapping pin to fit the small flash holes in my brass. Second, the sliding collar at the bottom of the die was not moving freely, as Barelstroker mentioned. I've polished up the sliding sleeve. I shifted to using an L.E. Wilson mandrel die for the time being on my new brass, but will revisit the Lee die once I need to process all my once fired brass.
I beg to differ with that assumption.
As you well know, I anneal my brass more than anyone & have no problem with the Lee collet neck die.
Do you have any proof of this finding?
From what you have stated in the past in other threads, I don't believe you would really know what too soft was. My brass is very soft &, the Lee collet neck sizer is no problem for me.
"cold Weld"...........How the hell do you "cold weld" brass to high carbon steel.
You're not up to your old tricks again 918V.
The only caveat with the Lee collet die is the initial neck OD. If that is too wide, the neck can become sort of stuck. When I resize, I can generally feel a slight resistance as the case travels up into the sleeve however, when I have used too large of a mandrel pin, that resistance can become large enough that I can tell things aren't what they should be.
What old tricks? I cold welded a Lapua neck to the decapping rod. It tore off. I had to disassemble the die, pound on the neck that was stuck to the rod with a hammer and cut a groove through it with a dremel before it let go.
You’d need a pretty opened up neck for that to happen but the lee will still handle that better than a bushing die.
I have one AR with a pretty generous chamber I load for that I can just slightly feel necks but it still sizes them down like a champ.
I use Lee collets for 223, 260, 7Saum and 338 edge.
For those using the Lee Collet die. Will it operate properly with the decamping pin removed? I’ll be decapping as a separate step before cleaning and annealing. I’ll be using a dedicated decapping die (with the correct pin size 
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)
It will although the decapping pin helps align things, otherwise the rod will follow the neck instead of the other way around.
I’d grind down the pin diameter instead of just chopping it off.
I’d grind down the pin diameter instead of just chopping it off.
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