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Advanced Marksmanship Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

A

acttacus

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 6, 2009
166
16
38
NC, Wake
#1
Hi all, I have issues, please save me!!

I am a very dominant lefty, and have been shooting for 10+ years left handed and have competed in many competitions this way. I consider my left index finger well trained for pulling triggers and can shoot 1/4 MOA all day long.

However, today, through an eye examination I found out that I am very right eye dominant. So here is my big question:

Do you guys think I should start shooting right handed? will this in the long run improve my shooting ability? or should I stick with shooting left handed and not worry too much about eye dominance?

Thanks all in advance~
 
#3
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CalmlyDeMented</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are shooting 1/4 MOA all day, why do you want to switch? Do you think you can do better?</div></div>

well, I do find that at longer distances I sometimes have difficulty keeping focus, and the target would go in and out of focus depending on my concentration. and also I always have to have an obsticle in front of my right eye for me to look clearly through the scope (I have a piece of black cardboard taped over the right side of my shooting glasses).

I guess what I'm asking is, how difficult will it be to switch from shooting lefthanded to righthanded? and being a dominant lefty, will my right index finger ever be as sensitive and well controlled as my left index finger? Has anyone else experienced this problem before?

Thanks a million!
 
#4
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I am left-handed, but right eye dominant. I grew up shooting rifles left-handed, and pistols right-handed. With iron sights on a rifle, it was easy to work the bolt on the right side with my left hand just by reaching over the sights.

However, when I got into precision rifle shooting a few years ago, I found it was not so easy to reach over a scope, and few rifles I wanted to have were available with left-handed bolts.

So, I switched to shooting rifle right-handed. I also learned to shoot rifle, pistol, and carbine with both eyes open all the time.

Now, I can shoot either side with everything, which is very handy when you need to work around cover on one side. And it makes no difference to me which way it is.

Short answer? Go for it. And the key to getting that done is dry fire, dry fire, dry fire.
 
#5
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am left-handed, but right eye dominant...
Short answer? Go for it. And the key to getting that done is dry fire, dry fire, dry fire.
</div></div>

Thank you Lindy for that heads up. I might just go and do some bench rest shooting right handed tonight, and see how it feels. Just of curiosity thou, how long did it take you to adjust to shooting right-handed from left? and does trigger pull ever "feels" as controlled as before?

Thanks, it just might be worth learning to shoot both hands~ never know when I'll lose a finger or two haha.
 
#6
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

A few thousand dry fires, and you'll never remember that you only shot the other way. And practice getting behind the rifle, too. IIRC, it took me longer to get used to that than the trigger.

Lots of cross-dominant people around. Watch Larry Vickers shoot pistol some time, and you'll note that he shoots right-handed, but lines the sights up with his left eye. Didn't keep him from winning national championships, though.

No one came out of the womb with a gun in his hand. It's a learned skill, and it can be learned either way.
 
#7
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I'm with Lindy on this one. When I see someone have a shooter change sides because they are "cross dominant" I shake my head. The whole subject is quite vague. My left eye is still 20-15 and my right is changing faster, now 20-25 with a half diopter of astigmatism on a 15 degree cylinder (on average). They used to both be 20-15 and when I shot Skeet I had to put a small patch of scotch tape on my left lens to blot out the front bead. Does this mean somehow I am cross dominant? Does cross dominant have to do with visual acuity or something else? Go read the Army sniper book, a well known highpower shooter's book, etc. and find me a true definition of what it is, what causes it, and what the effects are. I mean, come on - with a scope, who gives a rat's ass about this ill-defined, vague "eye dominance" thing? Scope or irons, you can only focus on one thing at a time. Play with the Bindon Aiming System capability of the ACOGs some time and see how what your brain sees and what your eye sees can be two different things.

There are 5 key elements that put shots where you want them. Vision is just one of them. With a powered optic, one can have pretty poor eyesight and it have no impact on his ability to put shots where he wants them. On the other hand, the thinking that one cannot see well enough can make a person neglect the other 4 elements that put shots in the middle of the target. I see this often with iron sight shooters. This exacerbates their poor shooting because they become so disturbed by their shooting that they let the other elements go away and scores go straight into the toilet. You don't have to see WELL, you just have to see WELL ENOUGH. For the context of this site, with a minimum of 3 power of optic involved, you can see well enough to do a whole lot of good shooting with "poor" eyesight, cross-dominant or otherwise.
 
#8
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Try what Ninehotel recommends. Put a piece of translucent tape over the right eye glass instead of black. The black confuses the constriction reflex of the pupil. The translucent allows almost the same amount of light into both pupils reducing strain.
 
#9
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Let's rephase your question: "I am a very successful shooter, but should I change my hold and possibly negatively affect my shooting to fix a non-problem?" Well, duh, no!!

A number of people on SH will tell you that you should be able to shoot from both sides of the rifle, so you can start to practice with your right eye when you do and see whether you can develop useful ambidexterity.

Unless you are having a problem, I don't see a reason to convert from left to right except to gain experience from the other side, but not as your dominant position.

You didn't mention whether you shoot left or right-handed rifles. Shooting a right-handed rifle from the wrong side can be an advantage if shooting prone, but it's a disadvantage if shooting offhand. So far, you haven't described any problems that would be solved by permanently switching to the other side - except removing the black tape from your glasses.

PS If it took an eye exam to determine that you're right-eyed instead of left-eyed, I wonder whether you are strongly right-eye dominant or only slightly so. I am left handed and "very" left eyed, shooting rifles as a lefty and pistols in either hand. I've known since I was a kid that I was left eyed.

PPS I just tried to switch over and came to the tentative conclusion that it would be easier for me to use my dominant eye but switch position, even though it would be the "wrong" hand. I am so left-eye dominant that using my right eye instead would take a lot of practice. So forget what I said at the beginning - you have to decide how dominant your right eye is.

 
#10
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

While I don't have an answer to Attacus' specific situation (experience and successful scope shooter wanting to switch to dominant eye), I can offer some information regarding 9H's comment about the lack of hard data on following eye dominance.

There's a couple of studies that were done that give credence to the often repeated recommendation to follow eye dominance over "handedness".

I don't have my references hand right now so I'll try to go from memory (and come back and edit if necessary).

One researcher had college students naive to competitive rifle shooting shoot following either the eye dominance or handedness. This was done apparently back in the days when 3P Smallbore was offered as an intramural sport (makes you wish for the good ole days don't it?). The shooters that shot with their their dominant eye did significantly better in score than those that followed their handedness. There was more to it such as the awkwardness that the cross dominant shooters described while shooting that way, but I hesitate to get too far intot hat without my reference handy.

There was also a study done of competitive marksmen where it was found that as the level of competition got higher, there were fewer and fewer shooters that deviated from eye dominance. The ultimate end was at the Olympic level where there were none.

More relevant to Attacus' situation, 9H and I know a shooter named Baker DelCotto who shoots at a very high level in his 70's. Age had caught up with him and his vision in his right eye had degraded to a point where he needed to switch. Rather than apply the "easy solution" and shoot off the left shoulder with his Service Rifle AR, he had a special set of offset sights made. He shot of the right shoulder but with his left eye that year. And he got a waiver from the CMP to do it.
 
#11
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I am right-handed and left eye dominate. I am not graceful enough, nor patient enough, to switch after 4 decades of successful shooting.
I have one long-distance left-handed rifle for bench use; another (a HBR gun) is right bolt, left port, and right eject. I shoot them as a lefty - using the left eye; its easy on a bench, even for me.

Handguns I shoot right-handed and use my left eye.

Experiment and do what works for you. I thought I could change, not this late in the game.
 
#12
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I looked for the word, but couldn't find it. Maybe it's time to invent it.

Ambioptrous, like ambidextrous, but regarding eyes, not hands.

Greg
 
#13
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Chris - in Baker's example, again I ask the same question that seems to go unanswered. Is eye dominance about the quality of vision of one eye over another or is it from some other factor? Your example supports my position, not that of some college study you reference. BTW I was squadded with Baker's son Mark at CP NRA Week 2008. Nice folks.
 
#14
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I will write more later, as I have researched this subject in some detail. For now I'll touch on a couple of things posted earlier.

If a new shooter or very novice shooter is started, it should be done with the dominant eye. Most often they will be able to shoot with less distraction from the non-aiming eye. It makes using a spotting scope, seeing wind flags, etc easier.

1. The study that Chris F mentioned earlier was run by Dr Landers at Penn State back in the 1970's. Alot of the "facts" it produced are questioned today. First, was the fact that subjects that were cross dominant had their dominant eye covered with a patch. This causes an imbalance in the amount of light each eye takes in. As a result the aiming eye looses some of its ability to focus. Interestingly, covering a non-cross dominant shooters non-aiming eye causes the same affect.

2. The study was not blind, the shooters were told that the theory was that shooing with their dominant eye would allow them to achieve at a higher level.

3. When using a blinder it should be made of an opaque material if possible and as small as possible while still blocking distractions. This will allow the light the eyes take in to be as equal as possible. Cutting out the side of a milk bottle works perect.

4. What concerns me most about the original post was the part about the target going in and out of focus. This is a common error in shooting. If one is shooting with iron sights, only the front sight should be in focus. It is impossible for both the target and front sight to be in focus at the same time. If the shooter can't focus on (and hold focus on) the front sight he/she needs some type of correcting lense.
 
#15
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

My experience with eye dominance is noted above.

Here's is what I would recommend for a new shooter:

I would have a right-handed person shoot right-handed irrespective of eye dominance. That's simply because weapons set up for right-hand manipulation are easier to find.

I would have a left-handed person who is left-eye dominant shoot left-handed, because they are likely to feel more comfortable doing so.

I would recommend that a left-handed person who is right-eye dominant shoot right-handed.

Eye dominance is over-emphasized as an issue with long guns. You will line up the correct eye with the sights through cheek weld.

It's a pretty minor issue even with pistols, and no issue at all with pistol shooters who are primarily or strictly bullseye competitors.

No matter what side you choose to shoot from, you should practice regularly from both sides.

There is no guarantee that either in a competition or in a fight for your life that you will be able to shoot from your preferred side.
 
#16
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is eye dominance about the quality of vision of one eye over another or is it from some other factor?</div></div>
Sorry, I didn't address your question 9H. I was "focused" on the OP's question (har har!).

My feeling is that eye dominance is not directly related to the difference in visual acuity between eyes. I would be another example of that. My dominant eye is 2 diopters worse than the other.

In these times, most folks are able to correct their vision so that both eyes have good acuity. We shoot and use only one eye for comparitively short periods which I would guess don't give enough time to "reprogram" our brains. I would wonder if the presbyopic folks that use monovision experience a reprogramming of their eye dominance? Or maybe this is a part of the workup before doing that. I'll have to ask my opthomologist friends.

DMS, I'm interested in the additional info you presented about Landers' study. Where would I be able to find this.
 
#17
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My dominant eye is 2 diopters worse than the other.</div></div>

Mine, too, so it's not about acuity of vision.

By the way, besides being left-handed and right-eye dominant, I'm one of the minority even of left-handed people whose brain hemispheric functions are reversed.

Vision is an interesting field. If you take a person and fit them with glasses which turn the image upside down, in a few days, their brains will adapt, and turn the image right-side up. Take the glasses away, and they'll be seeing upside down again, until their brain catches up again.

Life is sometimes stranger than we easily accept.
 
#18
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

"In these times, most folks are able to correct their vision so that both eyes have good acuity."

Corrected vision means that you can focus well at one point but are compromised on others. This wreaks havoc with irons.

Current thinking by me and other iron shooters I know is that you correct as little as possible to get "good enough" focus on the sights - otherwise the target image goes to complete dog crap, be it at 10 meters or 1000 yards.

Again, I am adverse to absolutes as questioned in the original post. That is the main point of my posts here. Figure out what works for you.

Lindy, can you tell me what is better for you personally when you shoot handed that matches your "dominant" eye? What practical differences do you see in your shooting when using your "dominant eye" side? I guess maybe I'm just someone that has no "dominant" eye, hence the reason I cannot relate to it.
 
#19
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Actually, with respect to vision, there is almost no difference, except that I sometimes have to concentrate a bit more when shooting with a magnified optic and using my non-dominant eye. That's because I shoot with both eyes open, and I have to work a bit harder to override my tendency to pay attention to the dominant eye.

The difference is not significant. That may be the result of training - I've spent many long days behind a spotting scope. I keep both eyes open, and switch eyes to exercise each eye about equally. Before I starting doing that, I would have significant eye strain after one of those days.
 
#20
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you take a person and fit them with glasses which turn the image upside down, in a few days, their brains will adapt, and turn the image right-side up. Take the glasses away, and they'll be seeing upside down again, until their brain catches up again.</div></div>That explains what happens with the vertical on my sighting shots.
laugh.gif
 
#22
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I think a dot/reflex scope sight, no magnification, is a good solution for action shooting at short to mid range. It is teh easiest way I know of to align a bore ontarget using both eyes simultaneously. As such it may go so far as to eliminate the eye-dominance issue. I use it on my semi shotgun for slug shooting and wouldn't hesitate for an instant to continue using it for shot with the appropriate choke tube and loads. Raised eyebrows don't deter me. Everybody with a new idea is greeted with skepticism. If it works, use it.
 
#23
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

No place more than a trap range with a butt load of old timers. Like going to the polo club for tea and crumpets.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Raised eyebrows don't deter me. Everybody with a new idea is greeted with skepticism. If it works, use it.</div></div>
 
#24
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lindy, slightly off topic but how would you shoot trap, skeet, etc.</div></div>

I get my head on the stock and line up the sights, such as they are most shotguns, with both eyes open. Shooting trap and skeet, though, is more about knowing through experience what lead to use.
 
#25
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I would suggest trying to use a patch over your right eye for the long distance work. Now if you wanted to learn for defensive purposes switch it up and see how You do. Using a patch will help with the eye fatigue, and trying to switch the target inbetween eyes. Hope that helps some.
 
#26
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I was shooting a match the other day with one of the top shooters on the USMCR Service Rifle team. He did this really really high tech thing when he shot his rifle -

He closed his non-sighting eye.
 
#27
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Yeah some people do that enough to get used to it. For me leaving both open helps alot with eye fatigue. I'm kinda sure thats a common reason for leaving both open. Hence why a blinder works so well.
 
#28
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

seems to cause a bit of eye strain that way. Seem many with a little clear scotch tape on non shooting eye protection

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was shooting a match the other day with one of the top shooters on the USMCR Service Rifle team. He did this really really high tech thing when he shot his rifle -

He closed his non-sighting eye.</div></div>
 
#29
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Some shooters open both eyes, but place a patch of Scotch Magic Tape across the optical center of the safety/eyeglass lens of the non-dominant eye. This fogs the image available to that eye, without eliminating the amount of light that eye receives.

When we close an eye, the brain causes the other eye's iris to open further, to increase the visual depth of field (just like a camera), compensating for the loss of binocular vision. Unfortunately, this also reduces the eye's ability to resolve small details. The net overall effect is to make the eyesight somewhat less sharp.

Closing the eye, or blocking one eye's vision with an opaque light barrier is not as good as using both eyes, or simply fogging one eye's image. Even though the non-aiming eye does not process the image, the light it processes serves a useful purpose.

Greg
 
#30
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Obscuring the vision from one eye is a useful technique if all you shoot is square-range bullseye matches.

If you shoot tactical matches or on a two-way range, one would be better served by learning to shoot with both eyes open and unobscured.

The reasons on a two-way range are obvious, but it's also true in tactical matches where you may be shooting multiple target engagements with time restrictions.

The best way to line up on the next target after engaging one is to find the target in your off-scope eye while keeping your head down on the rifle, then roughly line the barrel up on the new target with same eye. Then and only then, look through the scope for the target.

I'm too dumb to have multiple ways of doing things, especially if the techniques will have to work under stress, so I try to use only techniques which I'd find useful in any situation. Your mileage may vary.
 
#31
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

IMHO I think the OP has an opportunity to do something that most of us struggle with when forced to shoot weak handed, become ambidextrous on the rifle. In an effort to learn to shoot weak handed more proficiently I spent 2 days driving a .22 left handed to some good effect at minimal cost. When transitioning to a big gun my accuracy was only minimally affected after that. I still shoot a couple rounds weak handed to maintain in some loose fashion.

On the obscuring the off side eye.

Using scotch tape or a piece of plastic milk carton to teach yourself to shoot with both eyes open is very effective. You can slowly transition from closing one eye to running both open through this method. Eventually you will be able to remove the cover and shoot both eyes open w/o the cover. As Lindy mentions it's training the eye and fooling the brain.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#32
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Lindy's observation jibes. I learned the scotch tape method from a pistol shooter.

Using both eyes unobstructed makes excellent sense in the contexts being recommended.

I don't do run and shoot, multiple target engagement, or two-way range; so I am less prone to make recommendations pertaining thus. But Lindy's recommendations make perfect sense.

My two-eye usage is essentially limited to action shooting (i.e., deer hunting drives, etc.), and I can only manage the feat with unmagnified reflex type sights. For my purposes, it's good enough.

Greg
 
#33
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Lindy, Greg I totally agree with you both about both eyes open and unobscured. That is definitely the best way.

Attacus your problem would be helped alot with the blinder/scotch tape. I just would also recomend that you don't get dependant on it,and wean yourself off of it asap. Good Luck
 
#34
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

Thanks guys for all the advice. I know I have not been replying much, but I've definitely read everything carefully, and have put much of it into practice.

I have partially trained myself to shoot right-handed, and can do so with some level of confidence and ease now. But for now my dominant shooting position will remain a lefty. Having a scotch tape over the other eye definitely helps, but I'm trying to train myself to leave both eyes open and unobscured, thus can use the non shooting eye to scan for surroundings.

Thank you all for the great advices and suggestions, I have sure learnt alot from this thread!!

Cheers.
 
#36
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I'm right-handed but was told since basic training that my dominant eye was my left...I had to remember to ask for the brass deflector whenever I had that option.
These days I visit the range 4 to 6 times a months and with all of the right-side ejection weapons in my collection I'm glad that in the middle of my military training I switched to my right eye...
Today even with astigmatism I can hold a target up to 600 yrds both eyes open without a problem.
 
#37
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

eye dominance isnt about ocular acuity. nor is it a permanent condition. i learned as a youngin that if i wanted to run semi weapons right handed as intended i would have to train my right eye so i could use both eyes open just like i did left handed. it seems to me that like most other shooting technique issues, this is a "muscle memory" thing. what really happens is people have a genetic dominant eye default, but the optic nerves and synapse connections to change this are readily available for rewiring at any time with a little dry fire. i recommend a toy pistol and some tv. it worked for 10 year old me.
 
#38
Re: Shooting Eye, too late to swap?

I'm a righty and learned to shoot that way.

Honestly, I can't really say which of my eyes is dominant; the classic test with both hands gives a different answer at different times. Also, when doing familiar manual tasks, I occasionally use both hands interchangeably. I'm weird that way in other things too, but I don't stay up late at night worrying about it. It is, sometimes it helps, worrying about it doesn't.

When I got into the Corps, I was already an NRA Smallbore Expert from being in the PAL Youth Marksman Program,and several years on the High School's Rifle Team (try doing one of those today...). The Corps had a strict policy of training Marines to shoot righty, regardless. It produced some pretty weird results, but everyone qualified. Or else.

I guess what I'm getting at is that maybe the key issue here is the implements. If you have lefty gear available, and it fits your eye/hand orientation, great. But standardizing one's skills on a rarer implement does nothing for one's ability to pick something, anything, up and run with it.

I'm kinda more of a fan of a more flexible approach.

Greg
 
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