Shopping for a 308 bolt action

[JMM]

Good day!

I am looking at getting into a 7.62X51/308 auto loader, just not real excited about the results I am getting with my 5.56 at 100 yards - from a bench, 3-4 inch groups using Lake City or Federal 855 ammo. I have seen quite a bit on the DPMS rifles but mostly the 556, any critique on the 7.62/308 flavors of the DPMS - was looking at one of those in the local shop next to a SIG 716 at half the cost. I believe it was a Sportical I have never had an AR platform but am familiar with the SIG (556) realize that the SIG is gas/piston and the AR is just gas and that is a whole discussion in itself. When I asked the fella at the gun store his opinion on the matter, he asked me "are you going to war?" Not really sure what he meant by that only thing he followed up with is our military uses the AR and that it was good enough - so I kind of got the impression that he considered the piston better but that the gas was adequate - good enough for our military should be good enough for me - and he is probably right there.

I see a lot of folks saying that they like the DPMS stuff but that they consider them as a "starter" platform. I am looking for something that will give me reliable service with the capacity for a decent level of accuracy - yea - I know I am the weak link there ;-). I am not looking to see if I want to get into 7.62X51, I have pretty much decided that is the round I want to standardize on and am not really looking for something that is going to be a "starter" I would like to be getting into something that as my skill grows, I will not grow out of it. I figure that this will be my sub-100yrd tool. I do not mind spending the money to get something that is going to give me years of reliable service that has options down the road so that if I want to make changes to it that there are options available. That is something that I have come to realize about the SIG - there is really not that much available aftermarket for them. That seems to be a driver towards something on the AR platform.

Any feedback on the DPMS or recommendations on other choices welcome! Still looking at what is out there and have been shopping a little and my long list looks something like this (not in order of preference):

SIG – 716 Patrol
DPMS – Sportical, Oracle, Recon, Reaper, AP4,
FNH – FNSCAR MK17
FNH – FNAR
H&K – MR762A1
Rock River – LAR8
LaRue – Predator 7.62 Tactical
Springfield - M1A SCOM II, Scout Squad, SCOM16
Armalite – AR10 A4 Carbine (10A4CBF or the 10A4CBF-2)
Knights – SR-25 EC or ECC I really like M10 SASS CARB (259891) the but I think that is out of my price range…

 

[MAJ2SGT]

So are you shopping for a bolt action or semi-auto??

 

[hlee]

You do not say what the twist is on your 556, but if it is a 1:9 then I suggest hornady 55gr zmax to bring those groups in. My ar15 was shooting minute of pie plate- on a good day- with pretty much everything I put through it until I broke down and grabbed the zombie ammo. It is easily minute of angle (10 shot group) with this. It also shoots American eagle 50gr varmint slightly worse, but not so much that I won't be stocking up on that too.

My dpms lr308 shoots lights out with my hand loads, and is moa with FGMM 168 bthp and hornady match 168 bthp. But, of the factory offerings, it shoots the hornady 168 zmax best. But,it is heavy and probably best suited to longer ranges than 100 yards.

Zmax ammo is hornady match ammo loaded with a green tipped bullet (vmax in 223 and AMAX in 308).

Why would you limit a 308 to less than 100 yards? The caliber is capably of clean kills on deer sized game out to several hundred yards and good hits on targets hundreds of yards beyond that.

The beauty of an AR pattern rifle is that you can buy a starter rifle then add and replace parts as you grow/learn. Eventually, you have the 3 or 4 rifles of your dreams...

 

[GlockBlock]

I suggest using quality precision ammo in your AR for better results. LC and Fed 855 are "combat accurate" and super reliable but target rifle accurate is something they are not. Use different ammo and see what your results are before going off the deep end with a .308 AR.

 

[CRT2]

As others have stated, ammunition may be your variable for accuracy. Going to the 308 you will still need to find the ammunition your particular rifle likes. And, for best accuracy you will need to shoot MATCH ammunition or load your own.

 

[JMM]

Semi-auto

 

[smokebomb]

Being that you titled this "Shopping for a 308 bolt action" and you're looking for a semi-auto... Im gonna go out on a limb here and suggest you spend some time with your 5.56 and reading.

What 5.56 do you have now?

Is the recoil of a .308 going to be easier for you to manage tighter groups?

Read more, you sound like that guy gun shops around here like to take advantage of.

 

[ORD]

My head is pounding just from reading your above post, OP!

Look...you really need to take a LONG step back from the keyboard and do some quality reading on the multitude of different options you are throwing up (I mean out...) at this point in time. You are considering a host of wildly different options (aside from the basic premise of a .308 semi-auto). There is a wealth of information already in existence on this site regarding ALL of the laundry list of stuff you are thinking about. Search for them and see for yourself the reports of shooters on this site (and others for that matter) as to what the ups (and downs) are for each, as well as the level of performance (both in terms of reliability and accuracy are concerned).

There are hosts of DI vs. piston threads as well and it more or less boils down to a whole lot of fuss about nothing much for the average shooter (and I'm saying that as both an owner of multiple DI and piston-based rifles/carbines).

As for accuracy...you'll find as you have already noted that YOU are the weak link. With most common commercially available semi-auto .308/7.62 ARs these days...if you can't get it to around MOA with decent ammo (not the surplus @#$% you are running now)...then YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. DPMS, Armalite, RRA, Sig, etc. all have very reasonable accuracy for what they are designed to do...some models will afford you more and some less depending on how they are set up from the factory with items such as FF barrels, quality FCGs vs. your average mil-spec heavy, gritty, POS FCG, etc., etc.

Finally, don't get put off by reading someone saying that something is a good "starter rifle" or the like. Simply put...as with all things AR...there are rifles that are built for sub-MOA precision, reliability, etc. right out of the box and others that will simple put lead downrange with reliability but aren't much for precision levels of accuracy. A good, solid, DPMS basic rifle may well be a good balance of both worlds, but thankfully, at least for the large-frame ARs you have mentioned, they are VERY easily upgraded in a host of different manners down the road so as you become more proficient at properly running an AR, you are easily able to upgrade/make changes to your rifle/optics/etc. as you so choose. Don't get all hung up on buying "the perfect" rifle at this point but instead get something that as you grow and your skills/needs/wants change, you can modify as you require.

 

[JMM]

Thanks for the responses! This is exactly what I needed - questions back that make me define and think through what it is I really want to do!

One thought was to standardize my ammo purchases - I have a couple of bolt actions in 7.62X51/308 and when I got the 556 it was more for close up work and I like it fine for that. When I bought the 556 I was debating the same question then, 7.62X51/308 or 5.56 and went with the 556 because ammo for it was much less expensive than the 7.62 out there but they are much closer now. If I could get a 7.62X51/308 to do the same job that I had in mind for the 556 I could just shop for one caliber round.

Secondly, I am thinking about standardizing on the 7.62X51/308 because of the performance of the round itself. While I am not so much as disappointed with the 5.56 round I am definitely impressed with the 7.62X51/308's punch/penetration over the 5.56.

Thirdly, I really like the idea of having the 7.62X51/308 set up for the close up stuff, when in a situation where having more than 5 rounds available that I can send down range quickly would be handy. Something that can be quickly reloaded via a magazine like the 556, and knowing that it can reach out and provide the "umph" (yea - back to the performance thing again) of the 308 if need be is appealing.


It looks like I will be going with 168 match ammo for the precision bolt action and the little FR8 "brush" gun will have to eat whatever I go with on that one. I am currently using Federal and am going to try some of the M118 LR and see how that goes in the precision rifle.

But maybe as GlockBlock says, I already have what I really want with the 556 and the rounds that I am using since they are "combat accurate" and have pretty much demonstrate that with what I have done with it. I do enjoy shooting it and maybe I just am asking more than the ammo that I have been using can deliver.

 

[JMM]

ORD - You are absolutely right - there is a huge amount of information available and I am slowly plowing through it which has pretty much gotten me where I am now - I have pretty much convinced myself that I want to go with the 7.62X51/308 in an AR platform. However, I am not there yet and wanted to get a dialog going from folks that have already gone through this decision and learn from their experiences. You are also right - I need to do more homework for sure! Thanks!

 

[ToeBall]

I own AR's in both AR-10 and AR-15 which all shoot sub MOA so I speak from experience. Your first problem is ammo. As everyone has suggested, get something better than M855. Take a look at Black Hills blue box at the very least if you want cheap ammo, or get some decently loaded stuff, especially while trying to figure out, and sight in the rifle. Also, make sure you're getting the right weight of bullet for the barrel you have. If you have a 1 in 12, you can't go over 55 grains or the bullet won't spin fast enough to stabilize in flight. If you have a 1 in 7, anything less than 55 grains will over-stabilize and not fly well either. Past that, I'd need more info about the specific rifle you have.

 

[ORD]

ORD - You are absolutely right - there is a huge amount of information available and I am slowly plowing through it which has pretty much gotten me where I am now - I have pretty much convinced myself that I want to go with the 7.62X51/308 in an AR platform. However, I am not there yet and wanted to get a dialog going from folks that have already gone through this decision and learn from their experiences. You are also right - I need to do more homework for sure! Thanks!

The best advice I can give you at this point is:

1) Decide what you absolutely feel you MUST have out of any .308 AR platform rifle (i.e. and in no particular order a- what are the min/max ranges you want to shoot? how much do you want to spend...just the rifle itself...not counting addt'l mags, optics/mounts/rings, bipod, etc., etc.? what level of accuracy do you want/need with it in the condition it arrives from the factory? (2MOA - i.e. - "battle rifle accuracy"? 1.5MOA? 1MOA? Sub-MOA? What features do you want such as fixed/collapsible stock, upgrades like a SS Match barrel vs. a standard CM barrel, carbine-length barrel (14.5" to 16") or longer 18" to 24"+, FF handguard or nay, etc., etc., etc.? Then, once you have that list narrowed down, you'll be in a far better position to "narrow" the field of consideration...especially on price since you have some $1k rifles right along side some $4k rifles in your list above.

2) STOP LISTENING TO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING YOU ARE TOLD BY ANYONE WORKING BEHIND THE COUNTER AT YOUR LGS!! 99% of the time, with obvious exceptions to that rule, they don't give a damn, nor to they have a @#$%ing clue, about what you need/want or what is a "quality" item vs. a total POS. They want to sell guns...PERIOD. If they can push you to a $3k POS and promise you the world with it vs. a $1.5k excellent rifle...they'll generally push the POS every single time because chances are, its more money in their pocket. I know it sounds harsh, but it is what it is. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need and go into any purchase from any LGS with that information...you'll be glad you did later!

3) Prepare yourself for the cost of ownership. Just like going from a Ford to a Porsche...the cost of ownership increases accordingly. With a 5.56, you'll spend less on your average rifle, you'll spend less on ammo, less on reloading components, etc., etc., etc. Quality ammo, if bought commercially loaded and ready to go, for a .308 gasser is going to cost you. Sure, you can run the same sort of crap in a .308 gasser as you have been in your 5.56 (except the crap will now cost you ~$0.60 or so per round instead of half that or so), but to get the most out of it in terms of both accuracy and terminal performance at longer ranges...you are going to spend ~$1-1.25+ per round.

 

[GlockBlock]

My head is pounding just from reading your above post, OP!

Look...you really need to take a LONG step back from the keyboard and do some quality reading on the multitude of different options you are throwing up (I mean out...) at this point in time. You are considering a host of wildly different options (aside from the basic premise of a .308 semi-auto). There is a wealth of information already in existence on this site regarding ALL of the laundry list of stuff you are thinking about. Search for them and see for yourself the reports of shooters on this site (and others for that matter) as to what the ups (and downs) are for each, as well as the level of performance (both in terms of reliability and accuracy are concerned). There are hosts of DI vs. piston threads as well and it more or less boils down to a whole lot of fuss about nothing much for the average shooter (and I'm saying that as both an owner of multiple DI and piston-based rifles/carbines). As for accuracy...you'll find as you have already noted that YOU are the weak link. With most common commercially available semi-auto .308/7.62 ARs these days...if you can't get it to around MOA with decent ammo (not the surplus @#$% you are running now)...then YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. DPMS, Armalite, RRA, Sig, etc. all have very reasonable accuracy for what they are designed to do...some models will afford you more and some less depending on how they are set up from the factory with items such as FF barrels, quality FCGs vs. your average mil-spec heavy, gritty, POS FCG, etc., etc. Finally, don't get put off by reading someone saying that something is a good "starter rifle" or the like. Simply put...as with all things AR...there are rifles that are built for sub-MOA precision, reliability, etc. right out of the box and others that will simple put lead downrange with reliability but aren't much for precision levels of accuracy. A good, solid, DPMS basic rifle may well be a good balance of both worlds, but thankfully, at least for the large-frame ARs you have mentioned, they are VERY easily upgraded in a host of different manners down the road so as you become more proficient at properly running an AR, you are easily able to upgrade/make changes to your rifle/optics/etc. as you so choose. Don't get all hung up on buying "the perfect" rifle at this point but instead get something that as you grow and your skills/needs/wants change, you can modify as you require.

ORD, my head is pounding at your wall-o-text.

 

[ORD]

ORD, my head is pounding at your wall-o-text.

That may...or may not...have been done purposefully!