Hunting & Fishing Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

deersniper

Protecting the Sheep
Banned !
Minuteman
  • Feb 22, 2007
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    Ok, I didn't really do that.

    Why is it acceptable practice to take shots at predators (fox, coyote, etc) at distances that don't ensure a clean kill, but it is considered unethical to shoot at a game animal such as a deer at long range?

    I respect a fox alot more than a lyme disease carrying rat also known as a deer.

    -dan
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    I think it has something to do with coyotes/foxes/cougars/etc. being predatory animals. As such you are saving the lives of whatever they would kill/attack (maybe a hiker or someones dog, cat, horse, cow, whatever) by eliminating it as a threat.

    Deer on the other hand are killed as they over-populate and become a nuisance. They don't pose much of a threat though other than to vehicles and their occupants for the most part. This apparently puts them on a different plane of elimination than predators.

    Personally, hunting wildlife has never been high on my to-do list. So take this post for what it is worth from someone not well versed in the ethics of killing things that don't shoot back.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deersniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, I didn't really do that.

    Why is it acceptable practice to take shots at predators (fox, coyote, etc) at distances that don't ensure a clean kill, but it is considered unethical to shoot at a game animal such as a deer at long range?

    I respect a fox alot more than a lyme disease carrying rat also known as a deer.

    -dan </div></div>

    In our society no matter what we do it's not so much about the act but, what is viewed as "Sociably Acceptable"
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    Who defines what an ethical kill is...

    Is it listed somewhere or is there a rule book...

    An ethical kill in my eyes is a kill that brings an end to the animal as quickly as possible...

    Ethical would have to be determined by the shooter.... One should not take shots out of his/her paygrade...

    If one can not make a 200 yd shot then a 200 yd shot should not be attempted... If you can hammer
    shit at 1k consistantly and with accuracy then by all means let the air out of 'em...

    There should be not seperation for species (deer vs. predator) IMHO.... All deserve the same respect...

    Just my .02....
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who defines what an ethical kill is...

    Is it listed somewhere or is there a rule book...

    An ethical kill in my eyes is a kill that brings an end to the animal as quickly as possible...

    Ethical would have to be determined by the shooter.... One should not take shots out of his/her paygrade...

    If one can not make a 200 yd shot then a 200 yd shot should not be attempted... If you can hammer
    shit at 1k consistantly and with accuracy then by all means let the air out of 'em...

    There should be not seperation for species (deer vs. predator) IMHO.... All deserve the same respect...

    Just my .02.... </div></div>

    +1
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who defines what an ethical kill is...

    Is it listed somewhere or is there a rule book...

    An ethical kill in my eyes is a kill that brings an end to the animal as quickly as possible...

    Ethical would have to be determined by the shooter.... One should not take shots out of his/her paygrade...

    If one can not make a 200 yd shot then a 200 yd shot should not be attempted... If you can hammer
    shit at 1k consistantly and with accuracy then by all means let the air out of 'em...

    There should be not seperation for species (deer vs. predator) IMHO.... All deserve the same respect...

    Just my .02.... </div></div>

    Ditto
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    also I think that a not so great hit on a coyote at 1k will still most likely kill the animal from the wound. Not so much a deer or elk.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    To me, it's about personal responsibility. If you are going to shoot at something living with the intent to kill it, then you should not take the shot unless you are certain you can make it.

    You owe it to the bird/animal, your fellow sportsman and yourself. Wounded animals of any species fire up the anti crowd more than anything and we have a great need in this country to preserve our freedom. "Sky busting" is called what it is for a reason.

    .....as for your disrespect for deer and your respect for foxes, to each his own but we all need to stand together if we want to perserve our shooting sport.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Elkhuntingguide as it right. I see no difference in the species. I want it DRT. EVERY TIME. </div></div>

    Big +1
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who defines what an ethical kill is...

    Is it listed somewhere or is there a rule book...

    An ethical kill in my eyes is a kill that brings an end to the animal as quickly as possible...

    Ethical would have to be determined by the shooter.... One should not take shots out of his/her paygrade...

    If one can not make a 200 yd shot then a 200 yd shot should not be attempted... If you can hammer
    shit at 1k consistantly and with accuracy then by all means let the air out of 'em...

    There should be not seperation for species (deer vs. predator) IMHO.... All deserve the same respect...

    Just my .02.... </div></div>

    Excellent post elkhuntinguide. I agree completely.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    I don't know any hunter that thinks it's ethical to take a low percentage shot. However, if I am shooting my 7mm rem-mag and a fox shows up at a range I'm not sure I can hit at I would consider taking the shot only because with that gun a hit anywhere on the head or body is going to drop it whereas with a deer it wouldn't. Most big guns are going to make a mess out of a fox or coyote, so what would be a gut shot deer will turn a coyote inside out and a fox into two peices....both DRT.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    No animal should suffer, but on animals that are not going to be havested for food or other uses, it might not be as big of a concern to the shooter. If you are a farmer that hogs are eating your crops, and you don't need anymore hog meat or whatever, then what do you care if the pig runs off and dies in 75 yards, or runs off wounded and dies the next day, he is not eating your profit. Now saying that, you should always out of respect for the animal, try to make a clean kill, no matter what kind pest it is. But maybe this is why people see different game in different classes, but we are all mammals after all. Just something to think about.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    I'm no tree hugger, but I do respect the lives and humane treatment/dispatching of animals. I feel you should take the shot when an animal's life is on the line when there's a high hit probability.

    EHG's post sums it up pretty well.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    I would shoot out to whatever distance, I felt I could kill it cleanly, in one shot at. Regardless of species

    I've killed a coyote at 771 yards, one shot. I felt very confident I would make the shot. Sure I could have missed, but I didnt. Was it unethical? I would have taken the shot at a trophy whitetail too. Or a man in war. Any game that a 300WM could take at that range.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    Looking at it from a purely objective viewpoint, 'humane' has different meanings in different contexts.

    Marksmanship and terminal performance are not the same.

    Simply making the shot is not the whole issue, it must also carry sufficient terminal effect to kill humanely, i.e, with minimal delay or suffering.

    A sniper, technically, is more effective in creating living casualties, rather then dead ones. The effect is magnified when the target is defeated without termination; thus encumbering fellows, communications, transportation, and medical facilities.

    Game animals are not accorded similar considerations, thus termination becomes more signficantly important.

    Greg
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwc001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No animal should suffer, but on animals that are not going to be havested for food or other uses, it might not be as big of a concern to the shooter. If you are a farmer that hogs are eating your crops, and you don't need anymore hog meat or whatever, then what do you care if the pig runs off and dies in 75 yards, or runs off wounded and dies the next day, he is not eating your profit. Now saying that, you should always out of respect for the animal, try to make a clean kill, no matter what kind pest it is. But maybe this is why people see different game in different classes, but we are all mammals after all. Just something to think about. </div></div>

    Even if I was that farmer I would still want to drop as quick as possible. If I had enough I would just donate the meat to the needy through the "Michigan Sportsman Against Hunger" here in MI. I am sure other states have things similiar.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    Dead animal carcasses feed scavengers and predators. I guess the question becomes, do you want to help the predators and scavengers or hinder them?

    In our area of Upstate NY Coyotes have become a genuine threat to livestock, pets, and small children. The area is literally rotten with deer, but a significant portion of the predators' diet is a result of road kills and hunter negligence. Added to the situation is the poplation of wild coy-dog crossbreeds which result when folks run their dogs free at night.

    This is not going away.

    The NYSDEC sends mixed messages about these animals; the hunters shoot at big game, wound animals which then elude them, and go home for dinner, having just contributed indirectly to the problem. The animals might not die on their own, but the predators just enjoy the easy kill.

    Personally, I think both we and the deer need the predators. The Hunters are not getting the deer population culled in anywhere near the degree that the predators once did with the help of the original native population, both of whom our predecessors drove off.

    When I hunt, I hunt for meat, and try for younger, smaller animals, which don't exhibit the strength and toughness that disappoints the diner. I figure the habitat is going to kill this animal anyway, the Winter kills in our area are extensive. Only the really big animals have the mass that allows them to conserve heat and survive the months of near and sub zero temperatures our Winters impose on the herd.

    All too many hunters will concentrate on the big ones, precisely the ones the herd needs to have survive winter's challenges and pass on their successsful genetics to the herd's descendants. The net result is an overpopulation (we get it anyway) that is deprived of its best genetic heritage.

    Killing the animal is not enough. Its biomass must be removed from the habitat, or it simply goes on to contribute to the other manmade habitat imbalance problems.

    If you're gonna hunt, complete the job.

    Greg
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    Ethics aside. My guess is that the desire for a clean kill on game animals dates back to pre-ethical concern days.

    First, if you are going to eat it, you really don't want to chase it down with your flint ax to give it the coup-de-grace. You cares about a predator as your goal was just to get rid of it.

    Second- If I am not mistaken, the adrenaline released when the flight response kicks in will drastically alter the taste/texture of the meat. Long run=crappy meat. I have NO actual data to back that up, as to my knowledge I have never eaten game that was not a quick kill.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    Scout, “pre-ethical concern days"... now that’s original and a heck of a way to look at it in comparison. We have come a long way from there these days. I remember when it was ok for Grandpa to bust a deer and haul if home on the roof of the Buick. Today that is nearly unheard of, for "ethical" reasons...
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    Believe it or not, there are idiots out there who do consider there to be nothing wrong with wounding shots on animals. I consider ethical hunting to be shooting at any range where you can reliably make a vital shot on the animal and put it down quickly. Hunting is not target shooting and things can and will occasionally happen, but an ethical hunter will learn from such experiences, not take pride in them, and work to lessen the chances they'll happen again.

    There is a joker on another site who has posted 3 years straight about crappy long range shots and bragged about his skill. The first year he set up another hunter to make the shot with his gun on an elk...at like 900 yards (debating the ethics of letting a shooter not intimately familiar with the weapon make such shots is a whole other post). The result was an animal shot in the rear quarter...twice. It took 3 shots to "walk" one into the vitals. But it was a "successful" hunt and somehow worth bragging about. The next year similar situation, set someone else up on the gun, can't remember the range but way out there as well and shot the elk in the head when aiming for the chest. Again, lots of bragging about skill with a POI several FEET off what was intended. Finally last year he decided he was going to shoot an elk at 1200+ yds and purposely set up that far out. The first animal he fired at like 3 times without making a hit, yet thought it perfectly ok to try it again without going back and doing any homework and again took like 3 tries before hitting the animal (and again a poor shot).

    Yet somehow when I point out the poor ethics of it, I'm told I'm not skilled enough to compete in his league...beside the point that I drilled my elk in the vitals four shots straight at nearly 700 yards I guess...

    For me it's a matter of the trauma relative to the body size. For small predators and varmints a non-vital hit will be so massive it'll still result in a quick kill (prairie dogs, chucks, fox, large calibers on coyotes from some angles). Short of a cannon, nothing is going to do that on big game so nothing short of a vital hit is acceptable.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    Probably because they're predators and unless you're starving, are not edible. On the lyme disease comment... Fox, Coyote etc are regular carriers of rabies and other nasties.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me, it's about personal responsibility. If you are going to shoot at something living with the intent to kill it, then you should not take the shot unless you are certain you can make it.

    You owe it to the bird/animal, your fellow sportsman and yourself. Wounded animals of any species fire up the anti crowd more than anything and we have a great need in this country to preserve our freedom. "Sky busting" is called what it is for a reason.

    .....as for your disrespect for deer and your respect for foxes, to each his own but we all need to stand together if we want to perserve our shooting sport. </div></div>

    +1 couldn't have said it better.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    Whenever possible I think you owe to the animal you hunt, whether utilized or not, to kill it cleanly. Meaning as quickly as possible.

    It used to bug the hell out of me when my cousin would torture lizards to death. Drop them in anthole or throw them in the campfire. Or when we'd shoot jackrabbits and wound one ...then the screaming began. I got used to it, but it always reminded me not to take shots I wasn't pretty sure of hitting. No one can call every shot perfectly, but we always do our best.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    You want poor ethics? Hunt on a ranch and bait the animals to your tree stand.

    Every damn hunting show on TV is of these, people, hunting on ranches and baiting the deer or bear in with food. They even cut the foliage to guide them into the area they want and use the paths they want.

    THAT ISNT HUNTING!!


    That REALLY pisses me off and it's on TV every day, all day

    Oh, not to mention they geneticaly alter the deer and GROW bucks. It's shooting fish in a barrel and they act sooo proud. Pussies....
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    A sniper, technically, is more effective in creating living casualties, rather then dead ones. The effect is magnified when the target is defeated without termination; thus encumbering fellows, communications, transportation, and medical facilities.

    Greg</div></div>



    You know this crap about "wounding is better then killing" in military sniper operations gets spouted all the time. Yet I never heard that at Benning or at SOTIC.

    Is there anyone that can honestly show me something in modern Sniper doctrine that teaches wounding is better then killing?

    I don't think Confirmed <span style="font-style: italic">Wounds</span> is kept up with. I'm pretty sure it's- One Shot One <span style="font-weight: bold">Kill</span>.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    +1 azprecision that ain't hunting
    as for the rest every hunter will have to decide for him self what is ethical and what is not. every body's abilities very greatly. Bottom line its up to every hunter to decide
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    It's a very personal thing and I would imagine everyone draws the line with hunting ethics slightly different. Even the most careful ethical hunter can still make a bad shot, crap happens.

    The worst I see are always the guys that have no respect for the animal, or anything else, and will take any shot no matter how poor, just in the hopes of killing something. They don't care about the meat, or the animal, they just want to kill stuff. They are usually the loud mouth guys driving the big jacked up trucks and drunk the night before season opens.

    I love the stories that read from guys killing animals at long ranges yards where they need a spotter and 2-3 rounds to get them on the animal, they somehow feel that's "hunting". If you can't get within a couple hundred yards of an animal you don't need to shoot better, you need to learn how to hunt.

    However, frankly I don't feel baiting is hunting either. Putting out a truckload of food for 3 weeks and then sitting in a blind or stand waiting for animals to come eat isn't hunting, it's sitting on your ass and the only skill it requires is having some land, and enough money to put food out.

    The "ranch" animals are even worse, I laugh every time I see these guys on TV, they have 3 guys with them one filming, all making noise, and they are 30 yards from a "trophy" animal and they are TALKING to each other....I wonder what drugs they put in those feeders because in the places I hunt with actual WILD animals if you did that within 200 yards of a whitetail it would be LONG gone. It's a joke, but it makes for good TV.

    As to the original question, I think part of it has to do with that fact we are not using predators for meat, so for some if they aren't eating it they don't care where they hit it as long as they get to kill something. The other part might be that if you hit a fox/coyote etc. just about anywhere with a centerfire it's probably going to die pretty quick. However a wounded deer can go for a long ways.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    I have a meager 26 acres that back up to about 3000 acres of woods that are predominately WMA.
    In the last 6-7 years, about 50 deer have been taken on my land. All have been clean kills at less than 25 yards. 25 yards because the undergrowth is too thick to see farther than that. I have walked over a large part of the WMA, and most of the forest is so thick that a shot of 50 yards is about maximum.
    Yet, I find deer skeletons every year that have been shot and managed to make it away to die.
    The range is of no great concern. Some people can't shoot.
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    Among true sportsmen the matter of an ethical kill isn't even a question. However, there will always be a group to raise a ruckus over this issue, even with the few scenarios that some would be willing to make an exception for, such as prairie dogs, coyotes, fox...
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    I find it very interesting that we use terms like 'harvest and dispatch' Boys, that is bullshit talk to appease people that you will never be able to appease.

    Those people you are trying to appease got a ballot measure to the voters here in Oregon nearly 10 years ago. The result? No longer are we allowed to hunt Cougars with dogs in Oregon. The voters made that decision not the Biologists who are charged with managing game and fish. There are now so many Cougar in Oregon that anybody is allowed to hunt them and nearly the year round. Our deer and Elk herds have been decimated.


    logic and soft words do not appease these people. They think ethics is a Cougar killing all the deer and Elk and you the hunter not hunting at all. They are not fond of you owning guns either.

    We kill deer and elk. We don't harvest them. We are not picking corn. Respect for the animal? Start by saying that you killed it . Make no apology about it.

    Image will not keep your right to hunt. Fighting tooth and nail with stupid people in large numbers is the only thing that will.

    Ethics? We should all have enough respect for ourselves to know our limits so that we do not cripple game. A coyote that is killing lambs at night gets a bullet hole in whatever part of his body that presents itself. That my friends is common sense. If it makes you uncomfortable then you have a luxury that many ranchers and farmers( and the hunters on there land) do not.

    When a coyote runs off with his guts hanging out what sort of ethical question do you think is posed to his fellow coyotes? Do you think they wait until he is dead to eat him? Do you think they eat the portion that is hanging out and then wait for him to die before they eat the rest?

    The rancher does not care because he does not have the luxury. 100 years ago we did not have the need for any of these ethical discussions. People shot predators because it made sense and people shot game closely and carefully.
    Animals were not as thick as they are now and ammo was expensive.

    Excess has made all this "ethical talk" possible. Just my 50 cents worth. Jeff
     
    Re: Shot at a deer today at 900 yards, wounded it.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who defines what an ethical kill is...

    Is it listed somewhere or is there a rule book...

    An ethical kill in my eyes is a kill that brings an end to the animal as quickly as possible...

    Ethical would have to be determined by the shooter.... One should not take shots out of his/her paygrade...

    If one can not make a 200 yd shot then a 200 yd shot should not be attempted... If you can hammer
    shit at 1k consistantly and with accuracy then by all means let the air out of 'em...

    There should be not seperation for species (deer vs. predator) IMHO.... All deserve the same respect...

    Just my .02.... </div></div>

    +1 again