Shot Show

[sass2924]

Any ELR events, talks, seminars etc being held at the show this year?

 

[Lowlight]

Yes, a bunch

we have the ELR Shoot at Front Sight on Sunday with the AB guys,

There are the meetings that will be held inside SHOT about these "World Records" attempting to standardize the requirements, etc,

 

[THEIS]

There are the meetings that will be held inside SHOT about these "World Records" attempting to standardize the requirements, etc,

Hi,

All these World Records are just about the most controversial and silly part of the ELR world there is. Because bottom line is that NONE of them are actual World Records.....they are personal records, team records, organization/association records but none are proper world records. The World Record thing has been going on since the original cheytac & associates days, it just has never stopped lol.

Nobody has put the time, effort and money into having any of those "records" sanctioned by Guinness and even when someone does it will not hold much weight because at that point it doesn't become "O lets beat that record", it becomes "O lets rewrite that criteria to match what we want"....it will become a world of "record" rewriting vs "record" breaking.

The "World Record" claims of this and that are nothing more than marketing fodder at this point....they hold no water. It really is all a mute point at this time.

Here are a few examples of just how silly rewriting an "Official World Record" criteria can get.....
Something like these "changes/differences" not only can, BUT WILL make for "Different" New World Records. All depends on how you want to write the criteria for Guinness to validate. That can get as detailed and "cluttered" as patents can lol.

Suppressed
Unsuppressed
Optic with magnification over 20x
Optic with magnification under 20x
Rifle with weight over 20lbs
Rifle with weight under 20lbs
Rifle with threaded on muzzle brake
Rifle with clamped on muzzle brake
Projectile over 350gr weight
Projectile under 350gr weight
Projectile over 3in long
Projectile under 3in long
Case capacity over 175gr
Case capacity under 175gr
Case length over 4in long
Case length under 4in long
Rifle with 2 stage trigger
Rifle with single stage trigger
Rifle with double set trigger
Rifle with magazine
Rifle without magazine
Magazine with 5rd capacity or over
Magazine with 5rd capacity or under
Rifle with folding stock
Rifle with right side folding stock
Rifle with left side folding stock
Rifle with fiberglass stock
Rifle with aluminum chassis
Rifle with carbon fiber stock
Rifle with ejector
Rifle without ejector
Rifle with fixed bipod
Rifle with folding bipod
ASL of 3000+
ASL of 3000-
Wind speed of 10mph+
Wind speed of 10mph-
Target angle of 30deg+
Target angle of 30deg-
YADA YADA YADA


Can't shooters just go out and push their desired distances further and further without claiming this is a record and that is a record?


Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[Lowlight]

By creating a standard you begin to shoot all this bullshit down.

A lot of it is one group claiming records, as noted, for marketing purposes.

But an organization/committee is forming to address this stuff

Has nothing to with Guinness

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

An unbiased organization and committee would be great. Issue is getting it unbiased....

I can be of assistance in regards to international locations and venues for 2 mile comps if wanted. We have locations in Ras al Khaimah, ZA, Ukraine, Poland, Jordan and Austria.
We can also swing Big Sandy if needed.

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[Quickshot]

Where are the records based on this year's requirements?

Please consider allowing records to be set using targets smaller than the established target's area.

Thanks,

 

[sass2924]

There are the meetings that will be held inside SHOT about these "World Records" attempting to standardize the requirements, etc,

Are these open to anyone interested or by invitation only?

 

[Hoffer]

Please make it a separate organization and website with no affiliations

 

[LastShot300]

Please make it a separate organization and website with no affiliations

+10 and no marketing or commercial BS.

 

[sass2924]

Please make it a separate organization and website with no affiliations

Who besides AB is stepping up to do this?

 

[Hoffer]

Stepping up to what?

Nothing happened except more AB advertising.

There are many people contributing into it which is a good thing. I think a $30 website could be done without an association to one company. It just looks bad the way it was set up.

 

[Lowlight]

It's a combination of people

The Applied Ballistics Guys are spearheading this using ELR Central

There is no such thing as "Unbiased" as this is a financial issue just as much as any other issues. The point is bringing more people to table so we can bring in a group that is not affiliated with anyone making the attempts. I am going to the Ritter & Stark Shoot this weekend.

As an example, I am not shooting I am acting as a range officer / Proctor for the SHOT SHOW Shoot as noted, R&S shoot

AB is a part, Warner, McMillan, it's a lot of people, however, AB is running point but it is open to many.

You have the guys behind Ko2M, you have Oscar with his CA group, you have many different factions working together. AB just created ELR Central, but there are a lot of hands in the pot

 

[Hoffer]

A separate website would at least create the illusion of an independent association

 

[Lowlight]

that is because they are mainly using Facebook,

The fact AB stepped up and created a website should not be looked at as if they are the only player.

The problem is people using FB

 

[_Windrider_]

The problem is people using FB

SO MUCH YES HERE. I left that wasteland and never looked back.

 

[ELR researcher]

Frank - Paul says the gun has been jumped. He's waiting on more reviewer comments.

Please delete until Paul says OK. Thanks.

 

[Mark V]

There is already a Rev 10 with a few changes. You can delete Rev 7 above to avoid confusion -- thanks

 

[ELR researcher]

Paul has released a PDF - a few minutes (10) ago. I'm unable to add it here but here is a link - http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/elr-central-world-record-event.3939327/#post-37100808

 

[steve123]

This is an exciting event!

I can see why any cartridge can be used for the world record attempt, the logic of it and that's fine, but I do wish there were at least cartridge class divisions. I wouldn't even know how to define the classes but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be competitive against, say a 375 Lethal mag, with my little 30-375R.

It'd be like bringing a 223 to shoot against the 6mm's and 6.5's at a long range match starting at 500Y and ending at 1000Y. Well, maybe in this case it'd be best to opt out or resolve yourself to be a casual competitor knowing full well going in you'll finish lower unless you get lucky. Well, the easy answer is don't bring a 223, right??? in my case, "pun intended" a 30 cal, or do I have it wrong?

I'm not trying to start a argument but what do you guys think about the pro's or con's either way, at least for the future?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I think if you start putting "classes" onto ELR you are limiting its' growth. ELR has ALWAYS been about pushing the boundaries, not about allowing lesser capable cartridges to be "included" but in their own "class".

"Classes" start to clutter the end goal/results real fast...just as my example list of changes that Official Guinness WRs can go through to get new record without breaking old record. Once you open the door to weapon/cartridge classes then you open it to classes based off support equipment, classes based off quantity of support personnel, etc etc.

IF you are going to "class" anything in ELR genre, then I suggest classing the shooter..not the weapon, cartridge, etc.

ELR in its' simplest form......An ANY/ANY format is what is going to drive the bus of progression. IF you show up to a PRS match with a lever action 30-30 you do not expect to be in your own class right??? You pretty much expect to be at bottom of standings. IF you show up to a 2 mile ELR match with 270 then you should not expect to be in your own class.

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[LastShot300]

Hi,

I think if you start putting "classes" onto ELR you are limiting its' growth. ELR has ALWAYS been about pushing the boundaries, not about allowing lesser capable cartridges to be "included" but in their own "class".

"Classes" start to clutter the end goal/results real fast...just as my example list of changes that Official Guinness WRs can go through to get new record without breaking old record. Once you open the door to weapon/cartridge classes then you open it to classes based off support equipment, classes based off quantity of support personnel, etc etc.

IF you are going to "class" anything in ELR genre, then I suggest classing the shooter..not the weapon, cartridge, etc.

ELR in its' simplest form......An ANY/ANY format is what is going to drive the bus of progression. IF you show up to a PRS match with a lever action 30-30 you do not expect to be in your own class right??? You pretty much expect to be at bottom of standings. IF you show up to a 2 mile ELR match with 270 then you should not expect to be in your own class.

Sincerely,
THEIS

+10. I don't see what's the rationale as posted by AB (rev10). Would like to see some sort of explanations because some are simply not making any sense, at least to me.

 

[Hoffer]

Looking into my crystal ball .....
No matter what the rules might be the records most likely will stagnate after the first 2 years. Probably maxxing out around 3k for a long time thus slowing participation. You will then see very small increments in distance with newsworthy achievements getting smaller and farther in between. Then only meaningful advances will be in electronics at prices too high for private citizens. After 5-7 years we will remember the good times that were.

(Originally posted for some of the limiting rules. After some thought I don't know how you could change the rules to keep ELR going for an extended time besides 1 moa targets ... at least the record part of it)

 

[Lowlight]

Guys

Relax, I spoke to Paul, I am traveling, I get it shit is changing you don't need to run around with your hair on fire.

It's not like this is happening next week.

Las Vegas, NV – Sunday, 21 Jan 2018

Front Sight Range, 1 Front Sight Road, Pahrump, NV 89061 Registration: 0600-0700 Range Brief: 0700
Morning Relays: 0800-1000 Afternoon Relays: 1400-1600 Awards Dinner: 1800 – 2000 at Pahrump Valley Winery $50.00

INAUGURAL WORLD RECORD EVENT

Entry Fee:
Registration, contact: [email protected] (231) 468-1231

RULES (Rev 10)

The following rules have been established to standardize the requirements for a recognized ELR Central World Record attempt, while managing 50 shooters in an efficient manner. Multiple shooters will be on the line simultaneously, waiting their turn to shoot. The order of shooters will be selected randomly prior to the beginning of the relay.

1. The World Record will be 3 out of 3 direct impacts on a 36-inch square plate with no practice shots or sighters.
2. One rifle per shooter for both attempts. Two shooters cannot share one rifle.

3.

1. No limit on caliber, cartridge or bullet. No restriction on optics or aiming devices.
2. Rifle weight limit of 50 pounds including anything attached to the rifle (optics, bipod,
   
   sling, etc.) No heavy Rail Guns or bolted down shooting systems.
3. Shooters can shoot alone or may have one spotter, but the shooter and spotter must
   
   stay as a team. Spotters can work with only one shooter for the day.
4. Shooters are permitted to shoot and spot only once in a 4 hour period. A shooter from
   
   the first relay can spot for his spotter in the second relay so that both can shoot.
   
   Shooter and spotter cannot shoot in the same relay.
5. There must be a minimum of 4 hours before shooters can attempt another World
   
   Record. For example, once in the morning, once in the afternoon.
6. No more than two (2) World Record attempts in one day.
7. The target will be 36 inches square. If there are hits on the target and there is a way to
   
   mark them on the monitor, it will be at the discretion of the Match Director to decide when the target should be re-painted.

Shooters will not shoot their rifles within 4 hours of this ELR World Record attempt;


except for a 100-yard confirm zero.

1. Targets will be located at distances from 1500-2500+ yards. Distance to the target will be announced on the day of the match and measured from the center of the firing line. The range will be verified +/- 5 yards with at least two (2) laser range finders.
2. Shooters are still responsible for ranging their own targets from their shooting position on the line. ELR Central will provide Laser Range Finders if you don’t have them.
3. The Match Director will be impartial and will not coach or assist any shooters.
4. The ROs will establish the shooting order and give range commands. The shooting order
   
   will be established by random draw.
5. Shooting will be done from the any position, to include prone, sitting, kneeling or
   
   standing with a bipod or tripod. Shooters may have one rear bag to support the toe of
   
   the stock.
6. Accommodations will be made for individuals with physical restrictions at the Match
   
   Director’s discretion.
7. Shooters will be divided into relays. On command, all shooters and spotters in the relay
   
   will line up on the firing line behind their rifles and spotting scopes.
8. There will be a time limit of 3 minutes per shooter once the individual command to fire
   
   is given.
9. Once the shooter has been given the command to fire, no other person can assist or
   
   communicate with the shooter except the spotter.
10. The next shooter on the line should be prepared to shoot immediately following the
    
    previous shooter and when commanded by the RO.
11. “Impact” will be clearly announced by the Match Director or his designate for everyone
    
    to hear.
12. Impacts on target must be a direct hit. Skip shots or ricochets will not be scored.
13. Every attempt will be made to video all shooters for World Records. World Records
    
    must be witnessed and verified by 5 witnesses including the Match Director.
14. Any existing record must be broken by at least 10 yards.
15. If a shooter has a spotter, they will both be named as the “World Record Team.”
16. If a shooter shoots without a spotter, he or she will be named as the “World Record
    
    Individual.”
17. If more than one shooter scores 3 for 3 at a given distance, those shooters will hold the
    
    World Record until another shooter goes 3 for 3 at a longer distance.
18. After a World Record setting performance, the exact range will be re-measured from
    
    the shooter’s shooting position to the target. The shooter’s rifle may also be weighed at
    
    this time to ensure that it is under the 50 pound limit.
19. All shooters and spectators will be required to sign a liability release waiver.
20. It is encouraged to pre-register and fill out a waiver.

31. Additional administrative and range safety rules will be given at the pre-match range brief. Rifles will be cased or actions open with an empty chamber indicator flag.

32. Match Director and ROs reserve the right to remove any shooter from the line and from the event for unsafe rifle handling.

ELR Central Personal Best Record Attempt
1. If a shooter misses the first shot, he or she will be given two (2) more attempts to make an impact, but still within the 3 minute time limit. This will not be for record or certificate.
2. Certificates will be awarded for making 3 for 3 impacts at the shooter’s longest distance. For example, 1500, 1600, 2000, etc.

Please contact the event organizer with any questions: Paul Phillips (734) 347-8024

 

[sass2924]

There has been discussion about classes based on caliber or case volume. There will be meetings during Shot Show to discuss the future and direction for ELR. To grow the sport it is important to be inclusive and not exclusive.

When is the meeting and who can attend. I would like to attend just to listen and see where things are going.

 

[Clearlight]

I was at 2 meetings at Shot last year , hopefully next years meetings
will be more productive with less interruptions.

Regarding classes , why not ‘ open class ‘ , which is any caliber
( IE : Mitch’s wildcat ) , and ‘ field class ‘ which is any SAAMI
spec cal up to 50 . No F class bipod in Field class , just 5H , LRA ,
Elite Iron , Barrett etc etc .

I like what Paul has done with the 3 Shot rule , keeps the walk on
factor low and will certainly sort out the pecking order .

 

[V-Ref]

The reason to encourage classes is to encourage participation and develop the ELR market. Without classes the current vector of ELR "competitions" will likely be Exhibition/Promotion events like they largely are now (I.e. small subset of industry connected & sponsored shooters) as these shooters will show up with 50# systems that will simply be out of the financial and technical reach (to tune and implement) of 99.9% of shooters. The facilities and logistics associated with putting on a ELR "match" are prohibitive and intensive.

 

[V-Ref]

A single Space Gun/Sponsored/Unlimited class may generate 10 systems on the shooting line for a regional "match", whereas the addition of a <25# .585 Bolt face class and now you have 3 times as many shooters at your event.

 

[Mark V]

ELR Central World Record poster and sponsors