Should I be content with what I have....or spend a grand?

[BigG]

Hi all, obviously first post. Looking for some feedback from folks with experience. I shoot, for the most part, at a DNR range in SE MI, 100 yards. If I drive for an hour + some, I can shoot @ 300 yards.

I shoot for fun only, off a bench w/sand bags. My version of fun at 100 & 300 yards is getting the tightest group(s) possible with factory ammo as I'm not a reloader.

A few years ago I picked up a Savage Model 25 Walking Varminter in .204 Ruger. Have a SWFA SS 20x42 on it. As far as a "shooter", rifle is fantastic! Pic is, if I do my part, a normal group @ 100 yards (no wind). Now......although the rifle shoots great, the mags are AWEFUL and it definitely has the Savage cluncky action. Chambering a round has always been less than satisfying. It's rare that I can chamber a round without multiple attempts. Read a lot about it and apparently I got what I paid for....and that's fine.

Now that I'm a little more practiced at doing my part, fighting to chamber each round kind of takes some of the enjoyment out of going shooting.

I'm looking at getting rid of the Savage and picking up a Howa HCR in 6.5 Creedmoor. But, want to shoot just as tight, or tighter groups.

Questions is.....is it worth the money to step up to the Howa for the better action? Doing my part, can I get just as tight of groups out of the 6.5 CM? Asking here because I can read (and have) all the "reviews" on-line but now days have no idea what reviews are "paid for" and what are not.

Anyway....I won't ramble on anymore than I have already. Any input is appreciated. I don't want to spend a grand on the Howa if it's not going to give the same or better results than the Savage.

Thanks,

BigG

 

[NWnewguy]

I'd have a tough time putting that into a Howa personally. The other thing is that your ammo costs are going to go way up shooting the 6.5 Creed if you are moving from a 204 Ruger. I guess that is assuming you reload. I have no idea what factory fodder in either of those calibers goes for. Additionally, the paper will never tell the difference in your investment in larger powder burn and heavier projectile. I would look at the Tikka offerings in your price range and maybe the Ruger PR. I'm a bigger fan of custom guns, but you won't get there on a 1k, nor do you need to, to shoot paper at a 100 yards. For that matter, you could even get a nicer rimfire and shoot tight groups at a 100 and really save money per shot fired.

 

[STROP]

That Howa is a great value in accuracy and utility but not the ultimate in accuracy or a sure bet on extreme accuracy. I doubt better groups with non-custom ammo, maybe not even same accuracy when using factory ammo. You have a nice shooter, there.

It's all about how accurate you want to go. Extreme accuracy butthurts usually compromise economics (time and $$$), portability (25lb+ bench guns and rests) and utility (superlight triggers, shorter barrel life, single-loading, non-hunter projectiles) to attain extreme, repeatable accuracy.

You can chase accuracy just fine with a Savage action as with a BAT, plenty of guys doing that. Control as many aspects/variables as possible - brass, chambering custom barrels, etc.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

No one comes to this site because they are content.

 

[brianf]

That's pretty good shooting if that is a regular group, using factory across the board.
Like devildoc said if your here you already have the itch.
It becomes less of what shoots the best and more of what you are dreaming about.
If you could magically get a better bolt for 50 bucks and shoot groups that can be covered with the dime, would you be happy?
Think on that one for a bit, when you really know what you want then it will be a hell of a lot easier.
Saying all this from experience...I mean wasting money for years. Lol

 

[TheGerman]

Just get an MRAD.

I just saved you like 6 years of not being content while buying/selling/trading over 30k worth of shit to finally get to where you want to be.

You're welcome.

 

[Kevin1]

You only shoot at 100y, sometimes go to 300y and don’t reload. Why do you want to get a 6.5C? Get a 223 in 1/8 twist, like a Tikka. You’ll have a lot of choices in factory ammo, it’s much cheaper, you won’t give up anything at 300y and it has less recoil.....Did I mention it’s a lot cheaper?

 

[steve123]

You're reasons are exactly why I sold my salvage in less than a week.

Try to get into a Tikka T3!

So the answer is yes. HOWA is a decent platform to start over on and build from. Unfortunately buying any inexpensive rifle might get you a poor shooting one. Cross your fingers or plan on buying a nice barrel.

Or try to get into a Tikka T3.

Consider learning to reload ammo. Way back when I could turn a 1.5moa rifle into grouping half that with glass bedding and good reloads. This happened quite a bit when I couldn't afford a nice rifle.

One time I had a chance to buy a custom benchrest rifle in 6PPC with dies, brass, the loads, for $600 and I didn't make the sacrifice, it'd put 5 shots into .3" at 200Y, I've regretted it ever since. What'd I do, I bought another crappy stock rifle, lol.... Think about spending more now vs buying regret.

 

[Clearlight]

I see a lot of guys getting great results with Tikkas and Howas straight out of the
box , with ADI / Sierra ammo . The Tikka in particular has a very smooth action .
Have you tried single loading ammo if the mag is shitty ? Most BR guys running
off sandbags are doing this as they don’t have a magazine at all .

I find the extra resistance of dragging the round out of the magazine , disturbs
the rifle if it’s running on sandbags . Try single feeding .

 

[HoustonB77]

Get a Tikka and never look back.

 

[J McGriddle]

My advice is to be patient and save your money. Talk to guys at the range and they will give you (mostly) honest reviews, most will let you take a couple shots with their rifle. It's nearly impossible to recoup your money if you don't like it so choose something you are going to be happy with for a while.

 

[tree man]

Get a Tikka and never look back.

What he said ^ mine feeds so smooth that I literally catch myself opening the bolt back up just to make sure it chambered a round and my ctr with handloads all factory except trigger a trigger spring constantly shoots 1/4” 5 shot groups

 

[Spartan67]

Big G. If you want to start shooting better , more constant, groups, I would focus on making sure your fundamentals are rock solid 1st. If you dont have that, you are not going to see shit for an improvement.

 

[pineoak]

+1 on a Tikka .223 T3x Varmint

Whittaker guns had it for $659 in May of last year. Email them and ask for their current pricing on it, and mention if they can meet the price from last year. Under $750 is still worth it

You'll have to get a scope base for it, but it's a GREAT shooting gun. I can hit 10" swingers at 550 yards pretty regularly with 55gr bulk ammo once I get the wind right. Reliable feeding from the factory magazine ($35 online for extras). Don't expect to load extra long handloads in the mags, but 77Sierras and more common factory rounds load reliably in mine

never had a single malfunction of any kind in mine in over 450rds.

I tried a YoDave! trigger spring which lightened the trigger pull by a bit (still passes the drop test) but it really wasn't necessary. Tikka makes a very good single trigger

If you shoot Federal Gold Medal Match, expect 1/2" groups regularly.

Cheaper to practice/play with bulk ammo as you can get a ton of shooting in for cheap. Groups will just be larger

LOVE .223

 

[Greg Langelius *]

For paper targets at 100yd and 300yd, I honestly believe that a 6.5 is a lot of gun, probably too much gun. I save my .308/260 rifles for beyond .223 range, starting likely at about 600yd.

I had looked into the Sav 25 walking varminter, and concluded that it was really not a great rifle for shooting stuff bigger than rimfire. I've been working with Savage 10 series and 110 series rifles since the 1990's and concede that they are not as slick or beauteous as a custom action. But that has never been a requirement of mine. I'm a shooter, and the Savages I own and have owned have all been good shooters, even the 7.62x39 10FCM Scout I own. What follows is a recommendation I have made so many times, I should just do a cut and paste for questions like this one. So:

Mine was a Savage 11VT (a proprietary model handled by Dick's Sporting Goods and their subsidiary, Field and Stream). It is a Bolt Action D/M rifle with a 24" 1:9" Varmint weight barrel that stabilizes my 75gr Hornady HPBT-Match handloads. It comes with the AccueTrigger, a mounted 3-9x40 hunting scope, and a moderately shootable non-AccueStock. I remove the stock, scope, and mounts and go from there. The new scope is a Mueller 8-32x44 side parallax adjustable target dot scope with 1/8MOA clicks. The rifle currently retails for around $450,and the scope is another $259. I replace the original stock with a $229 Choate Tactical Stock. I mount it with a Weaver steel extended Picatinny rail and medium height Vortex 30mm 6-screw rings.

Each of these items has been in use by me for several years now, with no points of failure, yet are about as cheap as I can find that still meets the needs of F Class competition. The entire setup is precisely duplicated in another 1000yd capable F T/R rifle, chambered in .308. These rifles will probably not get you into the upper crust at the nationals, but for a new shooter, they are a very affordable, acceptably capable pair of rifles.

This rifle has been shot by me at 600yd in National 600yd Mid-Range F T/R Competition and was clearly adequate for the task. I believe that any of the Hornady 75gr HPBT-Match factory loads will work very adequately in the rifle.

In case my use of the word 'adequate' seems excessive, it is used to give serious emphasis to the idea that for most people here on this site, the drive to have only the best of the best is massive overkill. Factory rifles like the 11VT I cite here are capable of shooting well enough that very few people here are actually good enough shooters to be significantly restrained in their marksmanship progress by those rifles themselves. When I miss with these rifles, it's not the rifle that's causing the problem.

For 100yd and 300yd, the rifle I suggest is going to do the job as well as most non-custom bench rest rifles. Is this THE precise answer to your question? Probably; but yes or no, it's a good one.

Greg

 

[pineoak]

+1 on 6.5CM being too much for 300 yards. too much $$$ to spend on ammo for that purpose

.223 bulk if you want to shoot on the cheap
.223 match ammo is very capable

rifle:
The Savages from Cabela's on special sale are very good for the $$$, but I HATE Savage CS with a passion. Just know you get what you get and it's not worth asking anything of Savage

if you have lots of $$$, the John Hancock from Patriot Valley Arms for $2000 is a great buy as well (should be... hasn't been released yet) if you want .308

or get the barreled action and drop it into a KRG Bravo chassis



+1
Vortex branded Seekins or Seekins rings

scope:
SWFA 10x classic for $275 or so on sale (tax day coming up)

though for a GREAT deal on a scope you can always grow into,

Got to GA Precision's website. call them, put down a deposit on a $750 LRHS scope to be delivered in July or $800 for scope plus a very good tool (MUT)

Bushnell 4.5-18x MRAD LRHS

 

[Greg Langelius *]

My experiences with Savage CS date from a previous century, and are so far out of date I can't reasonably comment. It was a good experience back then.

One of the reasons for this is that I now do all the mechanical work on my Savage rifles that I have any need for, including barrel swaps. This one of the reasons why I choose Savage; because they lend themselves well, probably better than other makes, to home gunsmithing. This advantage is evolving to reach other makes, as they race to copy Savage's pertinent industry leading features.

Back in the near-previous Obama era, I had shot some Prvi-Partizan 69gr and 75gr match ammo in an AR Varmint rifle that claimed a 1/2MOA with factory match ammo accuracy guarantee. The ammo and rifle did the task with some serious care, and very convincingly.

I reloaded the brass, and it has since become my goto reloading brass, but availability has become spotty, so I'm now using Starline. I had later obtained the main bulk of my PPU (Prvi-Partizan) brass as loaded 55gr FMJ basic fodder for $5.97 a box of 20 back before Obama; I would buy 5 boxes every time I went into Wal-Mart, and still have a moderately reliable stock of it onhand. For now, it serves (first) as practice ammo at 100yd, where ammo quality is not the primary issue with my guns; and it is then rotated into my reloading brass stock.

I think the .223 is a first choice for marksmanship training and all around fun shooting out to distances of at least 600yd and probably well beyond, especially at altitudes like mine (above 4000FT). I own four rifles chambered for it (six if you count the two additional AR Uppers), and have been handloading for it and all my other rifles for going on three decades. There are valuable advantages to doing it, and the .223 chambering is a very logical choice as a first handloading chambering.

I sincerely hope you get as much enjoyment as is humanly possible from whatever you choose.

Greg

 

[Changed]

The Tikka in .223 is just what the doctor ordered. You can by factory match ammo for less than $15. It has an excellent stock. When you are ready to take a step up, pick up a KRG chassis. It's a very nice setup. Trust me the Tikka can perform remarkably well.

 

[BigG]

WOW, everyone, just WOW! I asked for some experienced perspective and I GOT IT! Really appreciate it! I've just read through all the responses while on a meeting at work....(don't tell anyone ;-)). Going to go back through and make some notes and do some more searching on-line. I'd love to be in a position to "buy once, cry once" but around $1000 is the most I want spend at this point. Hard not to scratch that itch.

If the Savage bolt action was not so clunky I would be %100 satisfied with my current setup.

I'll take a look at ALL the suggestions, the ones so far, and any additional.

I'm here to stay so I'll keep you posted. Shouldn't be too long 'cause once I get something in my head there's only one direction....and that's the finish line.

 

[pineoak]

Only finish line winner is the one smiling. The guy that got 2nd will be cursing himself for the next year. The guy that came in #1,437 but enjoyed his race is the one that got the most out of it in the bigger picture of life.

When I was running 6.5CM almost exclusively I was shooting to improve/practice for PRS style matches. Loved training and competing.

That said, my schedule doesn't allow for training or competing amymore, but when I go to the range and plink either with friends or by myself, I have more fun with a .223 or .308 using non-match ammo than I did training.

So do what make YOU happy. My buddy likes to tinker and do load development more than he likes to shoot. I'm the opposite. We'll all find our happy place if we're willing to go there instead of where we think we should be.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

If the Savage bolt action was not so clunky I would be %100 satisfied with my current setup.

I understand your concern. I would just suggest that if you are basing this observation on the Savage 25 action, that action is not what I would consider representative of the vast majority of Savage bolt actions. The 25 was an experiment in making a small centerfire/rimfire action and was based on a design that was originally intended for rimfire LR and Magnum casings. As originally offered, the advertised .223 chambering was long delayed while bugs were being worked out, and the views I got at the time was that the .223 may have been a bridge too far for the action, but that they 'made it work' anyway. So I have no doubt there is a genuine basis for your displeasure with the .204 round which is actually based on the .222 Magnum, an even larger case than the .223.

My own experience does not include the model 25, which I eventually declined because of the anecdotal info in circulation when it was a new action. IMHO, it's made by Savage, but I wouldn't feel completely comfortable including it fully within the ranks of the others.

Savage sells a lot of bolt action rifles, which means to me that there's repeat buying happening, and that pretty much all the complaints you see and hear end up here on The 'Hide. I think they are very vocal but represent only a very small segment of the Savage market. IMHO, Savages are a solid performer, and seem to be free from a lot of the discontent folks have been uttering regarding (for instance) Remington's QC for the past several decades. Savage prices have come up with the rest of the industry, but I still consider them to be a very satisfactory implement; often available at very attractive prices from places like Cabelas (the 10T) and Dick's/Field and Stream (the 11VT).

Write them off if you must, but please do it for the right reasons.

Greg

 

[Pappakap]

As someone who just purchased my first serious range gun I’d look on the hide for something new that tickles your fancy. With a little patience and some time spent corresponding you can generally get a very clean, turn key rifle for what you are looking to spend. When I first read your post a Ruger PRS with some tasteful upgrades to it that’s been for sale came to mind. If that’s not your thing keep looking until your flavor becomes available IMO.

 

[BigJimFish]

If that is a typical group you are doing pretty good in that department. .5" groups @100yd are pretty good. Sure some custom rifles will do better, even significantly better, but there are a lot more groups well over .5" than you would expect even at benchrest matches. With factory ammo you are doing great with those groups.

As for 6.5CM, what do you want with a rifle that burns though barrels in less than 3k rounds for when your only going to shoot it 300 yds? I second the thought folks have that a .223 rem would be a much better and cheaper choice. Love a .223 for shooting shorter distances.

I wonder if there is any way to get your savage to feed reasonably well. It seems to be shooting well for you. Maybe there are aftermarket mag springs, mags, or something. You might be able to clean up the feel some by taking the bolt apart and polishing this or that rough area as well. Just spitballing here.

 

[101stinfantry]

I'm gonna agree with some of the other posters, .223 Tikka will do what your wanting to do. Unless of course, you just want a 6.5 CM.

 

[260284]

I have 2 Tikka rifles, a CTR that is in a GGS Predator that I re-barreled from 260 to 6.5 Creedmoor, and a Varmint in .223. I picked up the .223 so I could shoot the same action and trigger or less $$. I reload, but the 1-8" twist on the .223 does great with 50-77 grain bullets. I am shooting 75 ELDM and they are good to 1000 yards plus. I put a stock pack on the stock and am considering a kydex cheek riser in it's place. There are lots of aftermarket stocks out there for Tikkas and they have the smoothest actions out there. I shot a couple of matches this year so far and have watched some guys with savages have feeding issues. I let them run my 6.5 Creedmoor and they couldn't believe how smooth the action was and how the trigger felt.

If I were in your place it would be a Tikka Varmint hands down. The LRHSi scope that GA Precision is a great deal. I have the non-illuminated version on my .223 and the LRSTi on my CTR.

 

[BigG]

Well, decision has been made. THANK YOU everyone!

Going with the Tikka T3x Varmint in .223. Ordering tomorrow from my LGS. I'll post some pics once I get it to the range.

When I got the Savage I did so with my eyes wide open about the action. I had read the reviews about the poor action and they are all %100 accurate. They were also all %100 that the rifle is dead nuts accurate, and the trigger is awesome. That's what sold me. It was a good entry level rifle for me to see how much I enjoyed shooting for accuracy. Gave me a chance to hone my skills on shooting tight groups. And, to find out that I really enjoy that challenge. I'll never be a competition shooter but for what I want to do it sounds like the Tikka will make me happy. If I can continue to shoot within dime sized groups @ 100 yards AND have a smooth action, I can't ask for more (for now anyway).

Now have to decide what to do with the Savage. Probably sell it for a couple hundred bucks with all the disclaimers about my experience with it. BUT, as far as an ACCURATE rifle, it is great.

Greg L. brings up great points. I'm sure Savage has some great rifles. But, once bitten, twice shy. With sooooo many mfg. out there, any company rolls the dice on potentially loosing a long term customer when they introduce a product THEY KNOW, is sub standard (in one aspect or another).

Thanks again, everyone!

 

[260284]

Well, decision has been made. THANK YOU everyone!

Going with the Tikka T3x Varmint in .223. Ordering tomorrow from my LGS. I'll post some pics once I get it to the range.

When I got the Savage I did so with my eyes wide open about the action. I had read the reviews about the poor action and they are all %100 accurate. They were also all %100 that the rifle is dead nuts accurate, and the trigger is awesome. That's what sold me. It was a good entry level rifle for me to see how much I enjoyed shooting for accuracy. Gave me a chance to hone my skills on shooting tight groups. And, to find out that I really enjoy that challenge. I'll never be a competition shooter but for what I want to do it sounds like the Tikka will make me happy. If I can continue to shoot within dime sized groups @ 100 yards AND have a smooth action, I can't ask for more (for now anyway).

Now have to decide what to do with the Savage. Probably sell it for a couple hundred bucks with all the disclaimers about my experience with it. BUT, as far as an ACCURATE rifle, it is great.

Greg L. brings up great points. I'm sure Savage has some great rifles. But, once bitten, twice shy. With sooooo many mfg. out there, any company rolls the dice on potentially loosing a long term customer when they introduce a product THEY KNOW, is sub standard (in one aspect or another).

Thanks again, everyone!

You won't regret it at all. I bought my varmint used and the previous owner shot 77 grain Fiocchi in it. Said is was 1/2" pretty easy. I considered trying the IMI 77 gr Razor Core (Sierra Matchking), but I worked up loads with the 75 ELDM and 53 gr VMax.

 

[BigG]

Just to close out this thread....

Took the new Tikka T3x Varmint in .223 to the range today for the first time. I could not be happier with this rifle!! Super smooth action, just what I was looking for. Trigger from the factory (I think set to a little over 3 lbs) was still too heavy for my taste. Dialed it all the way down when I got home, it feels much better and I think will be fine. Overall, love the trigger though, no creep, solid 'click', no over-travel.

Was cold with the windchill (12+/- mph winds left to right). Was wearing my shooting gloves, thick Carhartt winter coat. Attached pic is first group (18 shots) @ 100 yards. With the conditions, I'll take that all day long. Looking forward to some warmer weather to really see what she can do.

Thanks, again, everyone!

 

[pineoak]

The T3x .223 Varmint is a seriously underestimated rifle IMO.

YoDave! trigger spring is around $25 shipped that'll drop your trigger pull weight some more.

LOVE the trigger. Amazing single stage for a factory trigger