Sidearms & Scatterguns Should lasers be trusted on concealed carry?
- Thread starter GONE BAD
- Start date
Electronic & electric stuff can fail at times you don't find convenient.
Depending on how you carry, your sweat and the salt evaporation from your skin & sweat may have corroded the inner circuit board just enough over 3 years.
Depending on how you carry, your sweat and the salt evaporation from your skin & sweat may have corroded the inner circuit board just enough over 3 years.
There are two things I require before I put a laser on a weapon.
1. That laser must be IR.
2. I must have PVS 14's.
Lasers are really a gimmick/crutch, I don't care how cool the Crimson Trace videos make them look. If you want to strap something to the front of your handgun, put a good light on it.
1. That laser must be IR.
2. I must have PVS 14's.
Lasers are really a gimmick/crutch, I don't care how cool the Crimson Trace videos make them look. If you want to strap something to the front of your handgun, put a good light on it.
I don't think a laser is detrimental...so long as it isn't your only way to aim the pistol (or the only method you train with). I agree with the medic in that I'd take a light over a laser if I was to accept the bulk on a rail. BUT, there are laser options that require little or no holster mod and do not make the gun any larger. In the hot months I carry a G43 (I am not a Glock guy) with a guide rod laser module that works well. If it fails well then I just have a pistol with tritium sights like most other pistols.
I hate them. Out to 20 yards or so I point shoot (unless I'm shooting bulls-eye) anyway. I never press to the sights unless it's a long shot. They do nothing for me but screw me up.
A laser can save you a lot of money.
A threat may not be able to see you are armed.
Painting a threat may reduce thier willingness to engage..
It works like a suppressor as well shutting up pie holes.
Thier by saving on ammo and Lawyers fee's.
If the threat continues you can still opt to use the tritium if you prefer.
A threat may not be able to see you are armed.
Painting a threat may reduce thier willingness to engage..
It works like a suppressor as well shutting up pie holes.
Thier by saving on ammo and Lawyers fee's.
If the threat continues you can still opt to use the tritium if you prefer.
Portable lasers don't have enough juice for me to consider one as a sidearm.
My Kimber UltraCarryII came with lasergrips on it. After about 3 years they failed, and they had a two year warranty. I called Crimson Trace about having them repaired and they sent me a new set right away. I appreciate their customer service, which will make me more likely to buy their products in the future.
I will note however that the failure was probably their fault. The grips that failed used a magnetic switch (probably to keep them waterproof) and it was this switch that stopped working. The new set had a different switch in them.
By the way, I recently jumped in a pool to save my daughter while I was carrying. It fried the batteries, but the lasergrips were fine.
I find that women tend to be fond of the laser. It gives them the confidence of knowing where they are aiming and not wondering if they are doing it right. For someone who shoots a decent amount, they are unnecessary but still fine.
I will note however that the failure was probably their fault. The grips that failed used a magnetic switch (probably to keep them waterproof) and it was this switch that stopped working. The new set had a different switch in them.
By the way, I recently jumped in a pool to save my daughter while I was carrying. It fried the batteries, but the lasergrips were fine.
I find that women tend to be fond of the laser. It gives them the confidence of knowing where they are aiming and not wondering if they are doing it right. For someone who shoots a decent amount, they are unnecessary but still fine.
If I face a threat to my life and I keep my eyes focused on the threat, I can see his hands and whether he drops anything or tries to draw anything. I can also see his eyes and the expression on his face which may give a split second advance warning of intentions or action.
If my eyes are focused at arm's length and the threat is twenty paces away, the threat is just a blob. I'm focused on a little metal post three feet from my eyes.
Those who still have young eyes are free to disagree. You aren't wrong (yet), but your eyes also will change with age. My EDC has CT, my hunting rifles have scopes.
If my eyes are focused at arm's length and the threat is twenty paces away, the threat is just a blob. I'm focused on a little metal post three feet from my eyes.
Those who still have young eyes are free to disagree. You aren't wrong (yet), but your eyes also will change with age. My EDC has CT, my hunting rifles have scopes.
I had a laser on my previous handgun. I considered it a niche piece of equipment as opposed to my primary sighting tool.
I would always recommend relying on your primary sights. I felt the laser comes in handy in lower light environments where it’s easy to see and when you can’t look down the sights of your weapon.
It didn’t hurt anything to have it added based on this use case so I didn’t see much downfall to it.
I would always recommend relying on your primary sights. I felt the laser comes in handy in lower light environments where it’s easy to see and when you can’t look down the sights of your weapon.
It didn’t hurt anything to have it added based on this use case so I didn’t see much downfall to it.
My opinion is based on my expirence and may not apply to others.
Lasers are fun on the range and I also use them for my predator rifle. I have no issue using one on coyotes rushing the call or running off. For CC, things most likely will happen rapidly and unexpectedly. If I have time I have time to retreat or disengage. I will also say I have never been one to have difficulty changing from one type gun or safety device to another. I was actually very skilled at it.
All that being said, simplicity and reliability are what I look for in a CC gun. Buttons, batteries, switches etc. simply confuse what should be a simple issue. I focus on the front sight.
I do like the idea of tagging as a deterrent but it does not outweigh the complications listed above.
Again, this applies only to my situation. YMMV
Lasers are fun on the range and I also use them for my predator rifle. I have no issue using one on coyotes rushing the call or running off. For CC, things most likely will happen rapidly and unexpectedly. If I have time I have time to retreat or disengage. I will also say I have never been one to have difficulty changing from one type gun or safety device to another. I was actually very skilled at it.
All that being said, simplicity and reliability are what I look for in a CC gun. Buttons, batteries, switches etc. simply confuse what should be a simple issue. I focus on the front sight.
I do like the idea of tagging as a deterrent but it does not outweigh the complications listed above.
Again, this applies only to my situation. YMMV
Coolest lazer i ever saw was on a tower with one of those eye in the skys on it. Now im not sayin you could make someone cover there eyes in fear and run at 3000 plus yards in the dark, im just saying in theory it could cause eye damage.
Personal choice.
Lasers or weapon lights or both.
If the user gains confidence by using them, who the shit are any of us to say they suck?
If iether fail it's back to irons, just where we started, a no loss situation.
Practice with your irons but if you wish to augment them you should not receive grief for that decision!
Let's take everyone's ballistic calculator from them and have them watch dust spat and get out a pencil that will not need a battery!
Maybe bipods and sandbags next?
Just a crutch for someone that can't use a sling properly right?
Lasers or weapon lights or both.
If the user gains confidence by using them, who the shit are any of us to say they suck?
If iether fail it's back to irons, just where we started, a no loss situation.
Practice with your irons but if you wish to augment them you should not receive grief for that decision!
Let's take everyone's ballistic calculator from them and have them watch dust spat and get out a pencil that will not need a battery!
Maybe bipods and sandbags next?
Just a crutch for someone that can't use a sling properly right?
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Saying that women need lasers more than men is a total shit statement.
In these days and times it's complete ignorance and demeaning.
My wife doesn't even like lasers and has a destinguished expert rocker for pistol from the nra.
Dumb ass.
In these days and times it's complete ignorance and demeaning.
My wife doesn't even like lasers and has a destinguished expert rocker for pistol from the nra.
Dumb ass.
I've been carrying a laser on my work gun for years now. Everyday, all day, concealed and tac'd up. My choice is the Streamlight TLR2-HL-G. My first TLR2 was issued to me in 2004. Absolute junk. We broke them by the dozen. I switched to Crimson Trace, which were and are also junk. Unfortunate, since they are a great idea.
The current TLR2 HL G has proven to be durable and reliable. I have a couple, as do other guys I work with, though they are not currently issued.
The SF 400 is also a good option, but I greatly prefer the switching of the Streamlight, as well as the power of the light and color of the laser. Also the size works better for me for CC.
The question is, what will you use it for? I don't consider it a necessity for concealed carry in any way shape or form, but for me at work, it is a lifesaver. I'm a small guy, and am usually the guy who gets sent into the attic, the underground crawl space, the "prepper tunnels", or whatever other small nasty places we come across. In those instances, I often have to use one hand to climb, steady myself, hold myself up, etc. A light/laser combo that you can easily activate with either hand is essential. yes, you can aim with your sights, but not nearly as often or as well as you can with the laser, when you are in a compromised position.
We also use them for shield work, but we rarely use a shield.
The point to all that is, like everything, it depends. It depends on which unit you buy. It depends on your mission. It depends on your skill level. Is it a good thing for CC? Sure, but definitly not essential.
BTW, I use a JM Custom AIWB holster, that he makes special for me, in order to conceal my full size gun and TLR2. works great, but many people are simply unable to carry such a piece in comfort and concealment. Works for me quite well.
The current TLR2 HL G has proven to be durable and reliable. I have a couple, as do other guys I work with, though they are not currently issued.
The SF 400 is also a good option, but I greatly prefer the switching of the Streamlight, as well as the power of the light and color of the laser. Also the size works better for me for CC.
The question is, what will you use it for? I don't consider it a necessity for concealed carry in any way shape or form, but for me at work, it is a lifesaver. I'm a small guy, and am usually the guy who gets sent into the attic, the underground crawl space, the "prepper tunnels", or whatever other small nasty places we come across. In those instances, I often have to use one hand to climb, steady myself, hold myself up, etc. A light/laser combo that you can easily activate with either hand is essential. yes, you can aim with your sights, but not nearly as often or as well as you can with the laser, when you are in a compromised position.
We also use them for shield work, but we rarely use a shield.
The point to all that is, like everything, it depends. It depends on which unit you buy. It depends on your mission. It depends on your skill level. Is it a good thing for CC? Sure, but definitly not essential.
BTW, I use a JM Custom AIWB holster, that he makes special for me, in order to conceal my full size gun and TLR2. works great, but many people are simply unable to carry such a piece in comfort and concealment. Works for me quite well.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I did like the laser but with the failure kinda had second thoughts. Just like ammo, I run everything I can through my CC to make sure it works. Think I'll drop the money for GOOD night sights.
I'll have to say the laser was pretty intimidating!
I'll have to say the laser was pretty intimidating!
The house guns have lasers. My wife has the .38 S&W Airweight with a grip laser (Crimson Trace?) and my Glock 21 has a TLR2. The TLR2 started as getting a light and the laser was an after thought. My wife cannot see sights without her glasses but can see the laser on a "target" across the room. My complaint about lights and lasers is finding compatible holsters. I don't see a laser as a ccw need for me but for others they may have a job related need.
Snub nose airweight with ct and a big dot tritium.
A trigger job was added to easup the pull.
The big dot tritium was done by a smith, takes some machine work but worth it. Easy to see in daylight, or total darkness.
Still fits most standard holsters.
As for weapons with the lights, more mnfg's are producing for them now.
We did not wait for some and my son and wife diyed several.
Leather / leather and some leather / kydex , lots of demo's on the web.
Be ceraful with the hot kydex I warmed some fingers in the process but was fun.
It's not much cheaper to make your own but very doable.
These 2 holsters were purchased.
A trigger job was added to easup the pull.
The big dot tritium was done by a smith, takes some machine work but worth it. Easy to see in daylight, or total darkness.
Still fits most standard holsters.
As for weapons with the lights, more mnfg's are producing for them now.
We did not wait for some and my son and wife diyed several.
Leather / leather and some leather / kydex , lots of demo's on the web.
Be ceraful with the hot kydex I warmed some fingers in the process but was fun.
It's not much cheaper to make your own but very doable.
These 2 holsters were purchased.
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I carry a 642 with Crimson Trace, and like you, I practice with and without.
I would never place 100% reliance on any battery-dependent weapon accessory, no matter what it is, but the CT grips are a worthwhile buy, imo.
True, you can't see the red dot in broad daylight, but how well can you see your iron sights in total darkness?
Maybe it's just me, but I would think a perp would have a harder time pinpointing your position with a laser, vs a flashlight.
I point shoot. I don’t need to see the sights to hit you in the dark... I don’t need to see anything but identify my target.
They put CT grips on our work guns some years back. We all sighted them in and they seemed to work well, but after years or muscle memory built into that front sight, I never could get to a place where I instinctually picked up the laser. Also, I disliked the way that had to alter my grip, when indexed, just so I didn't block the laser. That combined with the fact that they're a battery operated device didn't lend to a great deal of confidence. I ended up letting the first set of batteries die out, and I didnt replace them. The grips themselves were comfortable, so I left them on.
But, different strokes for different folks. I don't think there's a wrong answer. As long as you train with them and are diligent with replacing the batteries, I'm sure they'd be fine, save for a mechanical failure. I will say this though, while they were working, I did like the way that they would help you identify a flinch. Hand them to a person that doesn't believe they flinch, and there's no denying it after that.
But, different strokes for different folks. I don't think there's a wrong answer. As long as you train with them and are diligent with replacing the batteries, I'm sure they'd be fine, save for a mechanical failure. I will say this though, while they were working, I did like the way that they would help you identify a flinch. Hand them to a person that doesn't believe they flinch, and there's no denying it after that.
The xs site is great not sure what a smith will charge these days I had family working at the gun store and got a large discount.
https://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8375
https://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8375
Thanks.
Checked them out and I agree
Ameriglo might be the one for me. Lots to choose from.
My CZ tactical came with nights and I really like them.
Was having a little trouble shooting the gun so I remove the rear sight and mounted a red dot that I had to see if it was me.
Was a little of both so now I might put the night sights back on. Don't know for sure yet. Love the CZ with the red dot.
But the night sights are great.
Whoa! And here I thought we were getting to be pretty friendly! I was not intending to be demeaning to anyone. I was just speaking from personal experience. My wife loves lasers. My mom loves lasers and won't buy a gun that can't be fitted with one. When I did a "citizen's police academy" all the women down to the mayor's wife said they loved shooting a particular pistol because it had a laser. I didn't say women needed a laser more than men. But the women in my life have expressed a liking for them for the reasons I said. And if that's demeaning, then I'd be putting down my wife who I value much more than myself.
My reasoning for this post was simple.
To me a laser is a game changer. For the better or worse I don't know?
I can handle a handgun pretty well but under stress who knows?
Point and shoot is a last option for me!
Fact is pulling the trigger is too!
I understand that a life hangs in the balance in a matter of seconds! The laser was fast for me and would allow for more confidentance under stress I feel but that's just me.
If it failed then it would only add to the stress. This was and is my concern.
I'm pretty sure I'll go with night sights at this point!
Practice, practice and hope I never have to go there!
To me a laser is a game changer. For the better or worse I don't know?
I can handle a handgun pretty well but under stress who knows?
Point and shoot is a last option for me!
Fact is pulling the trigger is too!
I understand that a life hangs in the balance in a matter of seconds! The laser was fast for me and would allow for more confidentance under stress I feel but that's just me.
If it failed then it would only add to the stress. This was and is my concern.
I'm pretty sure I'll go with night sights at this point!
Practice, practice and hope I never have to go there!
Have a Crimson Trace laser on my Khar PM9 since 2005. Pocket carry and has been saturated by rain and at least once dunked in the ocean by a rouge wave. Only replaced the batteries last year as it was becoming dim. Not usefull in daylight but at twilight and in the dark it does put you on target.
Only recently discovered that I had been sighting it incorrectly. The directions with the CT tell you to zero the laser at 50 ft. to coincide with the pistol sights. The problem with that is the POI is only accurate at that exact distance. Further than that the shot will go low and closer it will go high. At 75 ft. that will mean your shot will be six to eight inches below the laser and at twenty five ft. four to six inches high [these numbers were from a 25 ft. zero].
The best method is to measure the offset from the laser to the center of the bore. In my case that is 1 3/8 inches. Choose a distance that you can fire a two to three inch well centered group with the iron sights. Zero the laser to impact 1 3/8 inches below the center of the iron sighted group. You will then only need to know that the POI will be ! 3/8 inches above the laser at point blank range to the longest shot rather than trying to remember to hold low or high.
Only recently discovered that I had been sighting it incorrectly. The directions with the CT tell you to zero the laser at 50 ft. to coincide with the pistol sights. The problem with that is the POI is only accurate at that exact distance. Further than that the shot will go low and closer it will go high. At 75 ft. that will mean your shot will be six to eight inches below the laser and at twenty five ft. four to six inches high [these numbers were from a 25 ft. zero].
The best method is to measure the offset from the laser to the center of the bore. In my case that is 1 3/8 inches. Choose a distance that you can fire a two to three inch well centered group with the iron sights. Zero the laser to impact 1 3/8 inches below the center of the iron sighted group. You will then only need to know that the POI will be ! 3/8 inches above the laser at point blank range to the longest shot rather than trying to remember to hold low or high.
For civilian use I think it's best to zero the laser POI=POA at 10yds max. Outside of that you're going to have trouble defending your use of force anyway, and your hits will still be combat effective out as far as you're realistically going to shoot with a defensive pistol.
Lasers are no different than any other electronic unit...they, (just like mechanical devices) can fail. Even poorly installed fixed sights can bend, break, fall off the pistol.
I think it's a pretty good idea to practice enough that you know how to point the pistol using nothing but the slide/frame. It's not really that challenging to place solid hits within typical "defensive" range.
-Nate
-Nate
The method I described above places the laser parralel with the bore and the offset is smaller than most people can shoot under stress. Eliminating the need to judge distance shorter or longer than laser/iron sight zero and make adjustments for even a large center mass hit. Precise shots under stress are impossible when the zero constantly changes in a dynamic situation.
At least one police academy used to teach close quarters, unsighted fire with the pistol held low at the strong side hip, forearm parallel to the ground, and using one's body to aim. It was surprisingly accurate and useful after some practice. For very close quarters, to protect the pistol from someone trying to grab it from you, it is actually useful.
For me I liked the laser / iron sight combo but lost confidence when it failed.
I really doubt I'd use the weapon farther then 10 yards.
The irons are gtg but at night not so much.
Night sights is probably my best option?
But if the laser hadn't failed it would have been my primary choice. Fast an accurate; POI was definitely within 1" of the beam. Irons under stress??
This is just my observation
Thanks Brothers
I really doubt I'd use the weapon farther then 10 yards.
The irons are gtg but at night not so much.
Night sights is probably my best option?
But if the laser hadn't failed it would have been my primary choice. Fast an accurate; POI was definitely within 1" of the beam. Irons under stress??
This is just my observation
Thanks Brothers
Given adequate training and practice, irons have worked well under stress for hundreds of years.
With the obvious exception of point firing and quick draw...
Are irons as fast as a dot? Maybe. Maybe not.
Are irons fast enough? Certainly.
The class of 2017 graduated just shy of 35,000 lawyers in the US.
If you feel like you have to draw and fire "defensively" fast enough that you can't obtain at least a flash sight/frame picture, just remember that this ain't Dodge City, and you ain't Bill Hickok.
-Nate
With the obvious exception of point firing and quick draw...
Are irons as fast as a dot? Maybe. Maybe not.
Are irons fast enough? Certainly.
The class of 2017 graduated just shy of 35,000 lawyers in the US.
If you feel like you have to draw and fire "defensively" fast enough that you can't obtain at least a flash sight/frame picture, just remember that this ain't Dodge City, and you ain't Bill Hickok.
-Nate
Dodge City.
A place where le enacted gun control on law abiding citizens
Because they couldn't id a bad guy for shit.
A clear violation of thier 2A rights.
A place where le enacted gun control on law abiding citizens
Because they couldn't id a bad guy for shit.
A clear violation of thier 2A rights.
No I got it, just remember that in a lot of the old westerns the le decided to
Enact gun controll on the law abiding residents due to the actions of some
Criminals.
I have over the years had different degrees of eye problems.
The adition of tritium, big dots and lasers at times kept me functional .
Eyes much better now but I will not be removing any of the augmentation on firearms I have.
Enact gun controll on the law abiding residents due to the actions of some
Criminals.
I have over the years had different degrees of eye problems.
The adition of tritium, big dots and lasers at times kept me functional .
Eyes much better now but I will not be removing any of the augmentation on firearms I have.
Snuby, sometimes all of us have a hard time avoiding leading heavily with our own perception of things, and applying that to everything we read. I do it.
I think you've done that here.
With the stated caveat of close-contact (ie: arms length) shooting by tactile reference and/or simple pointing, I was referring to the idea that no amount of fast shooting, regardless of sighting system, will ever save you if you "quick draw" at 24 feet, lose a round, a drop somebody's 8 year old....and that's BEFORE you have to learn to live with your actions.
It had not a GD thing to do with 2A, OR with the old West. I just though that would bring a little levity; I was wrong.
Many of the Internet's people seem to have ideas of "defensive" shooting that differ significantly from what actually stands up in court, even when the shooter DID legally own and carry the weapon. Trusting the sights--whatever they may be--and verifying that you can hit where they point is of the utmost importance if there's any chance you'll need to use the weapon beyond point-and-click range. For defensive carry in this country, that's EVERYbody.
It is my personal decision to use irons and slide, simply because I feel they are the least fallible.
-Nate
I think you've done that here.
With the stated caveat of close-contact (ie: arms length) shooting by tactile reference and/or simple pointing, I was referring to the idea that no amount of fast shooting, regardless of sighting system, will ever save you if you "quick draw" at 24 feet, lose a round, a drop somebody's 8 year old....and that's BEFORE you have to learn to live with your actions.
It had not a GD thing to do with 2A, OR with the old West. I just though that would bring a little levity; I was wrong.
Many of the Internet's people seem to have ideas of "defensive" shooting that differ significantly from what actually stands up in court, even when the shooter DID legally own and carry the weapon. Trusting the sights--whatever they may be--and verifying that you can hit where they point is of the utmost importance if there's any chance you'll need to use the weapon beyond point-and-click range. For defensive carry in this country, that's EVERYbody.
It is my personal decision to use irons and slide, simply because I feel they are the least fallible.
-Nate
You can take a look at post #25 and see that nothing on that snub nose
Will effect firering from retention.
With marginal eyesite or not having corrective eyeware in use the big white
"Iron" is fast to aquire in lite.
You probably won't live long enough to have to replace the tritium.
The darker it is the better it works.
The ct can fail but still is a good cussion for the backstrap when shooting +p ammo.
All that said it still has iron under the big dot in case you can figure out how to
Make it fail in some bs senario
Will effect firering from retention.
With marginal eyesite or not having corrective eyeware in use the big white
"Iron" is fast to aquire in lite.
You probably won't live long enough to have to replace the tritium.
The darker it is the better it works.
The ct can fail but still is a good cussion for the backstrap when shooting +p ammo.
All that said it still has iron under the big dot in case you can figure out how to
Make it fail in some bs senario
My family runs a lot of xd, xdm, and xds, full size and compact
In 9,40,45. Some since introduction, first 2 for sale per shop.
I remember one ftf/stove pipe with wwb crap ammo.
What bad experience did you have with xd's?
In 9,40,45. Some since introduction, first 2 for sale per shop.
I remember one ftf/stove pipe with wwb crap ammo.
What bad experience did you have with xd's?
