Shoulder Bump

[mzdadoc]

Good Morning,

I figured I'd take the time to introduce myself. My name is Shannon and I'm a long time listener and first time caller. I'd like to thank everyone in advance for the endless info I have found here and none of the you're dumb type of responses I see on other forums.

I have to say I was loosing my mind on this to me elusive shoulder bump until now. I did everything stated here with no results and decided to do as I found here which was send it back to Forster for them to grind it a bit based off of my fired cases. They were very kind and receptive of this free of charge. Then Saturday spending time with case prep I discovered in my haste I sent them my seating die. UGH! LOL

The one piece of advise I was hesitant on was the case lube. I thought how could that really be a problem but I ordered the Imperial Sizing Die Wax. I had been using Hornady 1 Shot and RCBS Case Lube-2 with no luck. Since I still had my sizing die I set out to try Imperial.

Well I'll be look at me with my .002 shoulder bump. My wife thought I had lost my mind the way I reacted! LOL

I thought I'd share this so if there are any nay sayers about lube affecting it and they see this post I have confirmed it was the problem the whole time. Sadly for me now I wait for them to return my seating die. Small price to pay for learning. LOL

Thank you all again!!!!

 

[rustyinbend]

Good info ... welcome ... and thanks for sharing. I was unable to solve my shoulder bump issues for a while, and decided before sending my Redding Type-S FL Bushing dies to be ground down, I'd try the Competition Shell Holder kit. The kit for each caliber has 5 shell holders labeled from .010 to .002 in two thousandths increment. Most of my shells did "squat" on the .010 setting, and as I decreased, I watched as I gradually approached by desired bump. The .004 shell-holder seems to be just about spot on for most of my reload calibers. Added the little wall-mount from Inline Fabrication ... I'm cookin' with gas. I really like the shell-holder option, as grinding the die base is great in one direction, but once done, you can never "un-grind" it.

 

[918v]

Good Morning,

I figured I'd take the time to introduce myself. My name is Shannon and I'm a long time listener and first time caller. I'd like to thank everyone in advance for the endless info I have found here and none of the you're dumb type of responses I see on other forums.

I have to say I was loosing my mind on this to me elusive shoulder bump until now. I did everything stated here with no results and decided to do as I found here which was send it back to Forster for them to grind it a bit based off of my fired cases. They were very kind and receptive of this free of charge. Then Saturday spending time with case prep I discovered in my haste I sent them my seating die. UGH! LOL

The one piece of advise I was hesitant on was the case lube. I thought how could that really be a problem but I ordered the Imperial Sizing Die Wax. I had been using Hornady 1 Shot and RCBS Case Lube-2 with no luck. Since I still had my sizing die I set out to try Imperial.

Well I'll be look at me with my .002 shoulder bump. My wife thought I had lost my mind the way I reacted! LOL

I thought I'd share this so if there are any nay sayers about lube affecting it and they see this post I have confirmed it was the problem the whole time. Sadly for me now I wait for them to return my seating die. Small price to pay for learning. LOL

Thank you all again!!!!

I tried other lubes but they ruined my shoulder bump consistency. Imperial is the best.

 

[rustyinbend]

I tried other lubes but they ruined my shoulder bump consistency. Imperial is the best.

I agree ... if you're just doing 15-to-20 cases. But sometimes after a match or ignoring my brass, I'll have 100 or more cases, and lubing each and every one is a PITA. For that, I throw 50-ish cases into a big zip-lock baggie, and spray in a bunch of Hornady Lok-n-Load case lube. Then I shake the baggie around, and add spray lube a couple more times. At this point, I've used enough spray lube, and shaken around enough cases, that everything is good and lubed. I just work that pile of brass that's been decapped, cleaned, annealed, and lubed ... and get it ready for the post-sizing cleaning. I keep track of status and sequence for each firing and process step, with the ACRO bin tags shown below. Kind of OCD, but it definitely keeps me organized. If you have a couple of different firings, on four or five calibers, in a variety of case-prep states ... staying organized is important. If you only reload one caliber ... not so much. I reload 300-BLK, 6.5-CM, 300-WM, 300-PRC, 300-NM, and 338-LM. Side note: I haven't seen a bump difference between sizing wax, and spray lube.

 

[supercorndogs]

Were you letting the liquid flash off from the lube before you started sizing? Why could you not get consistent sizing? To little lube, to much lube, not enough lube in neck? How are you managing neck sizing? What was your plus minus before and after? How many cases did you check?

 

[rustyinbend]

Were you letting the liquid flash off from the lube before you started sizing? Why could you not get consistent sizing? To little lube, to much lube, not enough lube in neck? How are you managing neck sizing? What was your plus minus before and after? How many cases did you check?

I slightly undersize with a bushing, and then slightly oversize with a mandrel, and that gives me the spring-back I'm looking for to get the seating force curve from my AMP Press (terminal force around 50-ish lbs). I map the bushing and mandrel to give me the neck tension I want during seating ... not based on measurements and predictions of seating force. For me ... the seating curve coming from my AMP Press is what tells me to adjust bushing and/or mandrel. Hope that makes sense. Others do it differently, and God bless 'em for it.

 

[918v]

Were you letting the liquid flash off from the lube before you started sizing? Why could you not get consistent sizing? To little lube, to much lube, not enough lube in neck? How are you managing neck sizing? What was your plus minus before and after? How many cases did you check?

Who are you asking?

 

[supercorndogs]

The OP specifically. But I am not unhappy to hear from others. I think a lot of people have an expectation from reading online that everyone bumps their shoulders with a plus minus of zero across the batch. I don't think many people actually do size that consistently. I don't think many people need to worry about sizing that consistently either.

 

[918v]

If you are sizing the same lot of brass fired from the same bolt gun the same number of times then that lot of brass will be equally hard and have the same shoulder length. If you set up your sizer die so that it stops hard against the shell holder with zero slack in the press linkage then you can expect your shoulder bump to be within .002” using Imperial wax. I once ran out of Imperial and the only thing the shop had in stock was Hornady wax, similar to imperial but brown in color and with a funny smell. That shit immediately doubled the shoulder bump variance and I was frustrated. I finally got some more Imperial and trashed the Hornady. Miraculously sizing went back to normal. Weird.

 

[supercorndogs]

So for example your sized case were from 1.552-1.554 and then went to 1.552-1.556? Do you think you would have noticed were you not measuring them?

How does slack in the press linkage effect shoulder bump when overcentering on the shell plate?

 

[918v]

So for example your sized case were from 1.552-1.554 and then went to 1.552-1.556? Do you think you would have noticed were you not measuring them?

How does slack in the press linkage effect shoulder bump when overcentering on the shell plate?

Prolly not. In my case with the Hornady stuff the variance shifted the other way, meaning it was bumping more than necessary and inconsistently so.

I don’t understand the second part of your question. If you only screw the die down to touch the shell holder, even if you use all your might to tighten it against the shell holder, the resistance of the case being sized in the die will cause the shell holder to spring away from the die. This will induce some variance in shoulder bump. That coupled with crappy lube will make your shoulder bump even more inconsistent.

Why is that important? Some of it is vanity. Some of it affects how nice your bolt closes.

 

[wv.citybilly]

@ 7:33
Sizing Die Setup to Match Chamber

@ 24:43
Preferred Method for Sizing Brass To Your Chamber

I'm a newbie to reloading, T3X SV .243

Tried to do what was demonstrated in the video but couldnt. After more reading (and as as mentioned above), I came across the suggestion of the Redding Competition Shell Holders, and to begin with the size .10. After going through the motions, at the .02 shell holder, and with 8 half turns, my brass now chambers much easier. It's not perfect. However, compared to the force I had to use to get a shell into the chamber before, it's a starting place.

I use Imperial Sizing Die Wax.

 

[918v]

Did you set up the die for a hard stop on the shell holder or did you just screw it down to touch? Then you had to add 4 additional turns? So that means now you have it set so the die hits the shell holder before the handle is all the way down, correct?

 

[Mk16.5]

I stand my cases up, bout .5" spacing, and use Hornady spray from slightly above in all 4 directions, let it flash off, very consistent bump every case, then tumble them again to clean.

 

[MarkyMark007]

this thread is prime example how people can't size their brass consistently and they blame lubricant for that.

Because if you read closely, one has problems with some particular lubricant and other person doesn't.

so only logical conclusion is that people does not know why they are not consistent with sizing... and they blame lubricant for that...

 

[wv.citybilly]

Did you set up the die for a hard stop on the shell holder or did you just screw it down to touch? Then you had to add 4 additional turns? So that means now you have it set so the die hits the shell holder before the handle is all the way down, correct?

f.y.i., I have the Rockchucker Supreme.

You are correct. Initially, with press arm fully down (piston fully up), I screwed in the sizer to a hard stop, then test.ed. Then the half turns, and testing, etc. Counting the original shell holder, that's 54? different positions tried to find the better fit to my chamber.

You are correct. Press arm would not be fully down at 8 half turns. In fact, the two reasons I stopped turning there were 1. the pressure needed to exert sizing is close to siezing up the press (a stuck shell), and 2. the locking nut by that point had almost no more threads. Ask me how many times I've had a shell stuck? Ha! Once was enough, but I had to do it again to be sure what I was doing was wrong.

Redding
.010 shell holder measures 0.368
.008
.006 0.372
.004
.002 shell holder measures 0.376

Again, I'm a newbie to reloading, but for my rifle then, it looks like I need a shell holder that measures 0.378 or 0.380. I'll try the piece of tape on the bottom and test.

 

[918v]

this thread is prime example how people can't size their brass consistently and they blame lubricant for that.

Because if you read closely, one has problems with some particular lubricant and other person doesn't.

so only logical conclusion is that people does not know why they are not consistent with sizing... and they blame lubricant for that...

That’s precisely what a mechanically uninclined person would think.

 

[918v]

f.y.i., I have the Rockchucker Supreme.

You are correct. Initially, with press arm fully down (piston fully up), I screwed in the sizer to a hard stop, then test.ed. Then the half turns, and testing, etc. Counting the original shell holder, that's 54? different positions tried to find the better fit to my chamber.

You are correct. Press arm would not be fully down at 8 half turns. In fact, the two reasons I stopped turning there were 1. the pressure needed to exert sizing is close to siezing up the press (a stuck shell), and 2. the locking nut by that point had almost no more threads. Ask me how many times I've had a shell stuck? Ha! Once was enough, but I had to do it again to be sure what I was doing was wrong.

Redding
.010 shell holder measures 0.368
.008
.006 0.372
.004
.002 shell holder measures 0.376

Again, I'm a newbie to reloading, but for my rifle then, it looks like I need a shell holder that measures 0.378 or 0.380. I'll try the piece of tape on the bottom and test.

Were you measuring the shoulder length of your fired vs sized cases? I’m understanding your post to mean that the +.002” shell holder is almost good. So why not try the standard shell holder which should be perfect?

 

[Rocketmandb]

Were you measuring the shoulder length of your fired vs sized cases? I’m understanding your post to mean that the +.002” shell holder is almost good. So why not try the standard shell holder which should be perfect?

This is right on - I also don't understand why they only make +sized shell holders in that set and not -sized.

 

[leclairk]

I agree ... if you're just doing 15-to-20 cases. But sometimes after a match or ignoring my brass, I'll have 100 or more cases, and lubing each and every one is a PITA. For that, I throw 50-ish cases into a big zip-lock baggie, and spray in a bunch of Hornady Lok-n-Load case lube. Then I shake the baggie around, and add spray lube a couple more times. At this point, I've used enough spray lube, and shaken around enough cases, that everything is good and lubed. I just work that pile of brass that's been decapped, cleaned, annealed, and lubed ... and get it ready for the post-sizing cleaning. I keep track of status and sequence for each firing and process step, with the ACRO bin tags shown below. Kind of OCD, but it definitely keeps me organized. If you have a couple of different firings, on four or five calibers, in a variety of case-prep states ... staying organized is important. If you only reload one caliber ... not so much. I reload 300-BLK, 6.5-CM, 300-WM, 300-PRC, 300-NM, and 338-LM. Side note: I haven't seen a bump difference between sizing wax, and spray lube.

View attachment 8407291 View attachment 8407292

Do you pull a piece of brass directly from the bag and straight into your press or do you pull out the pieces and let them dry a bit before resizing? I like the One Shot but have a hard time getting a consistent coating on my brass. I like this idea of putting it in a bag and coating all the pieces. I have found that a piece that is not totally coated will not size accurately.

 

[wv.citybilly]

Were you measuring the shoulder length of your fired vs sized cases? I’m understanding your post to mean that the +.002” shell holder is almost good. So why not try the standard shell holder which should be perfect?

You are correct. The standard shell holder is 0.380.

That said, using the standard shell holder, even with 10 half turns (and excessive force), I'm not exceeding 1.762 using a headspace comparator (head scratcher).

Headspace Comparator
1.770 unfired
1.763 fired once
1.760 .02 shell case holder (0.376) with 8 half turns
1.762 standard shell case holder (0.380) with 8 half turns (?)

1.760 isn't the perfect fit I was trying to accomplish, but it's much better than what I have with store-bought ammo or even the fired once.

 

[918v]

Something isn’t right with your numbers. Are you spinning the case between the comparator and the caliper jaws? The case has to settle in otherwise you’ll get different readings.

 

[rustyinbend]

Do you pull a piece of brass directly from the bag and straight into your press or do you pull out the pieces and let them dry a bit before resizing? I like the One Shot but have a hard time getting a consistent coating on my brass. I like this idea of putting it in a bag and coating all the pieces. I have found that a piece that is not totally coated will not size accurately.

I always pull them from the baggie and give them at least 30 minutes to dry. I can tell you that I've done this with many hundreds (probably thousands) of cases, and I've never had one get stuck in the die, and my shoulder bump is consistent whether using the "spray baggie" or single lube with Imperial.

 

[wv.citybilly]

Are you spinning the case between the comparator and the caliper jaws?

Yes.

Note: Up to 1000th difference when setting caliper down to take photo, but otherwise, the numbers are:

1.770 unfired
1.763 fired once
1.760 .02 shell case holder (0.376) with 8 half turns

 

[leclairk]

Yes.

Note: Up to 1000th difference when setting caliper down to take photo, but otherwise, the numbers are:

You’re using a bullet seating depth gauge not a headspace gauge. That explains your strange numbers.

 

[918v]

Yes, use the correct insert. Or if you don’t have one then find a nice round .40S&W case.

 

[mzdadoc]

Were you letting the liquid flash off from the lube before you started sizing? Why could you not get consistent sizing? To little lube, to much lube, not enough lube in neck? How are you managing neck sizing? What was your plus minus before and after? How many cases did you check?

Sorry for the late reply. I spend all day on the computer so it's not my first go to at the end of the day. I learned I was not letting them flash I was just spraying some and then going right into the die over and over trying to get the shoulder bump. It would appear I wasn't starting the whole process correctly therefore not achieving any bump at all. I use a Forstner full length sizing die with the appropriate bushing inserted. In the beginning there wasn't any plus or minus just nothing at all. I checked about 20 cases. I know this response may seem too little too late but I didn't want to ask for help then ignore responses. I'm prepping another 50 cases in my wet tumbler to start all over again. I went out to the range last night and for the first time ever hit a 8" plate at 600 yards. I ended up doing it a few times. I was ecstatic!

 

[mzdadoc]

this thread is prime example how people can't size their brass consistently and they blame lubricant for that.

Because if you read closely, one has problems with some particular lubricant and other person doesn't.

so only logical conclusion is that people does not know why they are not consistent with sizing... and they blame lubricant for that...

I'm sure you are not wrong but since I do small batches at a time and not a competitor I really don't mind the Imperial Wax one at a time method if it gives me the results I desire. Given the fact that I have a case of Hornady spray lube I guess I better figure out what I'm doing wrong with that stuff too.

 

[mzdadoc]

I always pull them from the baggie and give them at least 30 minutes to dry. I can tell you that I've done this with many hundreds (probably thousands) of cases, and I've never had one get stuck in the die, and my shoulder bump is consistent whether using the "spray baggie" or single lube with Imperial.

I will keep the 30 minute time in mind. I had know idea. I took it mostly as a spray and go thing to do.

 

[wv.citybilly]

Solved my shoulder bump problem by replacing the Lee sizing die with Redding.

Tightened the die to where it meets the press, used .006 shell holder, and it worked as it was supposed to. Ba da bing.

Thanks all.