Shoulder Position?

[BlkExp98]

I am having some issues getting a consistant cheek weld on my rifle in prone and from the bench. My rifle is a Rem 700 5R Special with the HS Precision stock. As for my specs just think 6' tall and lanky. I think my main issue is i cant find the right spot to put the butt of the rifle. I can easily feel my clavical, shoulder bone and what little chest muscle is there

but cant get it in a comfortable spot. In prone I end up with the butt of the rifle higher than i tend to see it in pictures around.

So can anyone help out with my positioning of the rifle stock? I am about to install a new buttpad and want to fix an length issue i may be having (if at all) as well. I just need to find a happy medium between a upright and prone length. All this goes back to the stock positioning because the bent elbow crease to the bent trigger finger doesnt seem completly accurate. Unlike a pistol grip stock, with the HS my hand is more extended so the measurements just dont seem accurate.

 

[E.Shell]

Re: Shoulder Position?

With a factory 5R stock and being "6' tall and lanky", I'd bet your stock is **at least** 3/4" too short for you.

In addition to bending your wrist and getting too much finger on the trigger, this short LOP pushes your face up too close to the scope, which then is mounted further forward than necessary. Your face is probably getting close to the point of the comb. The comb is likely too low as well.

Your LOP is a function of your arm length and is the same whether you are standing, benched or prone. Standing and benched make it easy to bend and stretch to fit the gun, and it may not seem as bad as prone. Set up for prone, your least flexible position, and the other positions will be fine.

Stock position in the shoulder in the prone is approximately the same as if you were sitting or standing, but if your rifle fit is bad, you're fighting it.

First, fix your fit issues:

1) Check & correct length of pull.
2) Check & correct your comb height to align your eye behind the scope.
3) Set your scope eye relief to your new head position. Use maximum magnification when setting eye relief.

Then, your position.

Many people set themselves up "backwards" and stage themselves to force their position to the rifle, vs bringing the rifle to the shooter. They put the bipod where they think it should go, then contort themselves behind the gun to get on target.

Do not worry about immediately putting the rifle on target and try this:

1) Position rifle in shoulder
2) Use a rear bag/sandsock to hold it there
3) Use the bipod height adjustment to bring the muzzle up/down on to the target

This should be very stable and place you comfortably behind the rifle where you can apply consistent shoulder pressure and release the shot without being in a strained position.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Shoulder Position?

Good advice from E Shell. Also, a four way butt and adjustable comb can cure the problem, but if you are forced to use what you've got, try to get a higher position in prone. First, remember to bring the butt stock to the head not the head to the butt stock. Do this by bringing the buttstock to the head before shouldering the rifle. With the higer position you will need a support for the handguard which will raise it too. Now, if you do not have a muscularly relaxed stockweld, where the eyeball is square with the eyepiece, build up the comb with something expedient. Also, if you're position is gonna be mostly prone and you cannot increase the pull, place the scope out a little futher for ideal eye relief, that's to say, where you do not need to strain to get a proper shadowless sight picture. One more thing, even if you have an adjustable pull you may want to keep it short as the longer it gets the more the balance of the gun heads towards the muzzle. That can be a problem leading to increased angular divergence from the bore at rest and the bore at bullet exit. Amd, as said in the previous post, build the position without any regard to the target. After you've built it, then adjust NPA for the hold you're seeking.

 

[Graham]

Re: Shoulder Position?

It might be that you are raising the rifle in the shoulder in order to get a proper cheek weld, like the NRA hi-power guys do with stock AR's.

You might find that it's almost impossible to get comfortable when prone with the HS stock: Many tall people with big hands also find the grip a bit cramped, with not enough room to properly rest the thumb of the shooting hand and too much finger on the trigger.

You may need a cheek piece in oder to avoid the natural tendancy to crawl the stock and end up with your chin as the weld.

What scope are you using and how far above the line of the bore is it mounted?

 

[BlkExp98]

Re: Shoulder Position?

I have a Zeiss Diavari 6-24x56 scope and tried to mount it as low as i could. The rings are Leupold PRW's but i dont recall the height. If i had to guess they would be the 30mm mediums. Ill have to get the height above bore once i get back home.

As for the cheek piece i have a eagle stock pack and used about 2 layers of the old neoprene mouse pad material. Ill tweak that tonight and see what gets my head the right height.

My issue right now is figuring out where the butt of the stock needs to be in relation to my shoulder. When im prone the stock top is pretty much level with my shoulder if im picturing it right. This means its sitting on my collar bone and on my shoulder. That isnt the most comfortable position (read no paddig except some muscle on my shoulder) but its what i do. A long range course round count would probably kill my shoulder if i still used this position.

If i mount the rifle lower im only realy making contact with the top portion of the stock so that doesnt seem exactly right either. In that position it would be right under my collar bone and somewhat trying to touch my chest but then im really choked up on the stock.

Im at a stalemate because changing the length of pull seems like it changes my cheek pad position. If i change how i place the stock against me that will change my cheek pad position. So without figuring out the placement its keeping me from attempting to get the other parts set.

Thanks for all the info so far. Its definatly helping, I just need to get the basic position corrected before i can make it right by LOP and cheek pad height. Maybe ill break down and have my wife snap a picture if that will be helpful.

Let me know what you think.

Major

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Shoulder Position?

Graham,

Interestingly, the HS Precision stocks in the manner of the type which is seen on the M-24, was modeled after the Winchester Marksman stock as seen on the M70 Target Rifles from the 1950's and 60's. It was, as the HS is, pretty good with irons but very poor, for most, when a scope is used.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: Shoulder Position?

I'm fighting the same "fitting" problem right now. I ordered some spacers for the buttpad. My plan is to remove the scope and add spacers till I get a comfortable fit with the stock. I'm removing the scope because I don't want the distraction of eye relief issues while I'm setting up LOP.

Once I have the LOP set, I can replace the scope and start working on eye relief and cheek weld spacing.

If there is a formula for LOP like there is with shotguns, I'd love to hear it. But so far, I haven't seen one anywhere. I know that with my current setup, my right elbow is bent almost as far as it can go to get on the trigger. It's not comfortable after a few minutes, and it can't be a good position.

If I'm on the wrong track with my plan above, please let me know how I should be doing it. But after thinking about it for a while, I don't see any other way.

Sled.

 

[Graham]

Re: Shoulder Position?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlkExp98</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me know what you think.</div></div>I think the shoulder forms a natural pocket when prone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there is a formula for LOP like there is with shotguns, I'd love to hear it. But so far, I haven't seen one anywhere.</div></div>because you didn't look very hard

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/DAVISON1/davison1.html

 

[Arsho]

Re: Shoulder Position?

You need a Karsten Cheek Piece. very good add on to your stock. will help with cheek weld and to secure rifle before you squeeze.

 

[Graham]

Re: Shoulder Position?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CLEVER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You need a Karsten Cheek Piece. very good add on to your stock. will help with cheek weld and to secure rifle before you squeeze. </div></div>You don't need a gadget. You need a stock that fits you.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Shoulder Position?

Smart folks are discovering factory stocked Remington rifles and most other brands have stocks which do not accomodate a shooter who is using a scope. Major manufacturers are not in-tune to their market. What's worse is most folks who buy these inappropriatly stocked rifles are too ignorant, or just simply unaware of the importance of a stockweld which allows the full weight of the head to be rested on the comb.