Shoulder pressure in prone...

[whoizrob]

I just attended an Appleseed a few months ago and am glad to say that I qualified and got myself a patch. I learned quite a bit reading tips on shooting form here and probably wouldn't have come close without it.

Having said that, I noticed a few things about my gun fit and form which need correcting. The biggest issue I had was in regards to my shoulder position. We were shooting slung up and in order to get a nice pocket I had to roll my shoulder forward a little bit. This was fine for short strings but as the day wore on I felt my shoulder getting tired and repeatablility began to suffer as my shoulder pocket grew slack. So my question is (for those who shoot using a sling in prone), how do you position your shoulder to ensure consistancy?

Thanks!

Rob

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

does the stock of your rifle have a hard or soft end? If its hard like plastic or steel it may be more likely to slip. Also you can move your trigger side elbow more forward - that might give you more pocket - rather than forcing your shoulder forward to create the pocket - using your whole arm will use the bone and not muscles to move the shoulder forward. Also, I know its blasphemy - but you can try to index your body at less angle which may help some as well. All the body mechanics that Appleseed teach are approximations and you need to fit the instruction to how your body works. If you can get a good support side and have a more straight body position behind the rifle that might help with the shoulder fit.

Also, I know its summer time - but make sure you shirt/jacket isn't slippery fabric - I sometimes wear Nylon UPF fabric to keep the sun off me, and that is slippery - which can cause a similar issue.

Oh, and by the way... Congratulation on scoring Rifleman !

 

[Enough Said]

Sling too long. Shorten sling slightly and roll into a solid position.

 

[whoizrob]

Herofish:
Soft rubber recoil pad. I will try moving my shooting elbow forward. Initially I had a problem with too short of an LOP. I am making up some spacers to try and lengthen that out which may buy me some space to move forward. As far as indexing goes, I went from a pretty wide angle to a much narrower one. The instructors initially asked me to try try wide but I was scoring far better with a more squared up position.

Enoughsaid:
I will also try a bit more sling tension but it was pretty tight to start off with. I had to wedge the buttstock with my firing hand into my shoulder, it just felt like the stock didn't sit as securely as it should (I can only compare it to when I shoot my carbine with my shoulders hunched quite a bit forward). What do you mean "roll into a solid position"? I was rolling slightly to my left side, locating the buttstock, and then plopping back down to my right elbow. Is that what you are refering to? Or is my technique off?

Thanks!

Rob

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

First, bring the stock to the head, not stock to shoulder, with body at rest on left side off chest. Place the firing hand on the butt, rather than with hand on pistol grip, pushing the rifle forward to clear the shoulder/arm pocket yet to be formed. The idea is to get proper eye/sight alignment. Upon release of the butt stock, sling tension will force formation of a pocket. With elbow still in air, place firing hand on grip and then let elbow fall to where ever it is muscularly relaxed. Move non firing hand forward or backward on handguard to get rough elevation. Then pivot entire body to get desired sight picture, making minor adjustment to position of non firing hand on handguard or by stretching body to get desired hold.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I suspect from your mention of bringing the shoulder forward to meet the butt that the LOP is too short. The traditional method of gauging LOP is to lay your forearm under the buttstock with the butt in the crook of the elbow. The length is right when you can reach the trigger comfortably with the trigger finger. As with many traditional methods, this is a rough estimate only, and can probably be refined somewhat to find the most comfortable LOP.

I am above-average tall, and am most comfortable with an LOP of about 16.5". It can be difficult to add that 2"-3" of LOP. I start with a Limbsaver Slip-On Recoil Pad and improvise from there. As I say, it can get difficult to find ways to provide the rest of the additional LOP. My match rifle has a McMillan stock with the Stacker butt pad, and a slew of inserts. I needed to replace the pad mounting screws with longer ones. My Garand and Mosin-Nagants have butt extensions.

Another tip-off that the LOP is too short is when the scope is all the way forward in the rings and the eye relief is still too short. BTDT-LOL!

Greg

 

[George63]

I have recently evolved to a dual LOP for position shooting with fixed stocks - shorter for standing/ longer for prone + seated - it gives the similar advantage of an M4 adjustable stock

since I need to extend the LOP, I leave a notch at the bottom with the original LOP for standing

photos are a PITA here - if anyone really wants to see this PM your email

 

[Onehunglow]

One piece of advice. Go to a few matches and watch how the best shooters set up their positions. There is nothing better to separate the wheat from the chafe when it comes to positions, guns , slings , ammo, etc.

Posting on the Internet for advice is a good start, but in your education as a shooter the responses you get are akin to elementary school education. Seek out a NRA high master or master in high power and see if they will help you along the path a bit.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

One piece of advice. Go to a few matches and watch how the best shooters set up their positions. There is nothing better to separate the wheat from the chafe when it comes to positions, guns , slings , ammo, etc.

Posting on the Internet for advice is a good start, but in your education as a shooter the responses you get are akin to elementary school education. Seek out a NRA high master or master in high power and see if they will help you along the path a bit.

I think you are right about the shooter's need to find a qualified coach; but, HM, Master, and/or DR credentials alone does not assure results. This is because those that can do it may not know how to teach it.

When I first got into HP I sought out someone to mentor me and found a HM, DR, and President's Hundred All Guard shooter willing to assist me. He is one of my best friends today but honestly he did not teach me anything, and reaching HM in LR was a journey for me not having much of a road map. It seemed I just willed it to happen, applying knowledge I thought was important to good shooting.

After I had earned credentials, I was trained by the USAMU to assist in the delivery of the SDM course, essentially learning how to present the SDM/TTT curriculum. Thing is, this curriculum, which covered everything important to good shooting, revealed concepts important to good shooting which I had not yet recognized as being important. I learned from the training not only how and what to teach but also that, even though I had shooting credentials, prior to the USAMU training I really had no knowledge of anything important to good shooting. You could say, I did not know that I did not know.

At any rate, now, having been properly trained, I am a better instructor, as well as a better shooter. The bottom line for the novice shooter is seek out formal training from those that are professional trainers, as well as credentialed.

One more thing, if the coach is skilled at observation, call/strike corollary, and grouping assessment the novice shooter can get off to a really good start building motor memory, an essential building block to the best results. If the coach cannot make a diagnosis of error, then focus must be placed on what needs to be accomplished, i.e. sight alignment and trigger control, which will be a little more work for the student.

 

[Onehunglow]

What's sdm?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

What's sdm?

Squad Designated Marksman

 

[Onehunglow]

That's great for military. It's tough to find civilian "mentors" other than Appleseed or "tacti-cool" classes that train for the end of the world. But for learning positions, wind reading, loading techniques, and gear selection mentors outside of the sport are rare.

Maybe F class is more teachable but even than half the people I've met who offer advice could shoot a 400 on a 600 point course.

I'd love to get advanced high power training in a structured environment I just haven't seen it offered.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

That's great for military. It's tough to find civilian "mentors" other than Appleseed or "tacti-cool" classes that train for the end of the world. But for learning positions, wind reading, loading techniques, and gear selection mentors outside of the sport are rare.

Maybe F class is more teachable but even than half the people I've met who offer advice could shoot a 400 on a 600 point course.

I'd love to get advanced high power training in a structured environment I just haven't seen it offered.

What I see as training issues:

Folks who need training but think they already know how to do it.

Folks who think they need LR training when they actually need basic marksmanship.

Folks who associate good shooting with ownership of specific equipment, unknowledgeable that better scores would be possible with some basic marksmanship training.

Appleseed, CMP Clinic, or USAMU Small Arms Firing School would be a good start for any if you could get them to see what they think is important to good shooting is not what is really important.

 

[Onehunglow]

I agree. Basics are most important. A HM with a m1a is always going to beat an expert with a Tubb gun.

Most of my issues are position related. After 7 matches I've plateaued just below expert with a service rifle. I have fits in off hand and at 600 yards. I believe off hand is concentration and npa related and 600 is wind reading related as my scores fall as the winds get heavier and more variable.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I agree. Basics are most important. A HM with a m1a is always going to beat an expert with a Tubb gun.

Most of my issues are position related. After 7 matches I've plateaued just below expert with a service rifle. I have fits in off hand and at 600 yards. I believe off hand is concentration and npa related and 600 is wind reading related as my scores fall as the winds get heavier and more variable.

Yep, I see it as you do. BTW, better scores at 600 came for me by just holding fire for prevailing wind and holding hard for elevation. A hand load with a low ES will also help holding elevation, with both measures collectively and effectively making the target bigger so as to not let a minor wind error have a consequence. I'm only about a 94.8 percent shooter at standing, yet what advancements I've made I attribute to motor memory development from dry firing, a rifle balanced for weight between butt and grip, and a trigger with faster lock time.

 

[Onehunglow]

Yep, and not using max loads with temperature sensitive powders on a 100. F day. All rookie mistakes and I made all of them.

 

[RTH1800]

Sterling,

Why do you edit every post? I am really curious.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Sterling,

Why do you edit every post? I am really curious.

I type on a laptop which does not have a back lit keyboard in a very dark room where I am performing other tasks simultaneously. I write in stream of conscious style. I often leave a program before completing all thoughts on the matter. These distractions and more usually means my posts could be more articulate, more accurate, or better composed; therefore, I try to polish. This saves some time later when I incorporate these thoughts into text for the shooting manuals I produce.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

I'm almost totally on board with Sterling, and all shooters are known to have individual opinions. Here's what I'd like you to consider: The location of the forward hand will determine the "true" force applied to the shoulder. The further forward on the forearm you place that hand, the more pressure you'll ULTIMATELY apply to the shoulder. Conversely, the more rearward you place that hand, the less pressure you'll ultimately apply to the shoulder (by way of the butt).

The sling is used to support the weight of the rifle, and to AUGMENT the tension applied from the butt of the rifle, into your shoulder.

If you don't get the placement of your forward hand correct, you'll never gain advantage with the sling.

So, here's what I recommend: Get down in prone. Bring your forward forearm up to ABOUT 30 degrees. Probably a little bit less is OK. Now, keeping your forearm at that angle, introduce the rifle, and SLIDE it back along your forward palm until the butt is solidly into your shoulder. Take note of your hand position. Remember, KEEP YOUR FOREARM AT ABOUT 30 DEGREES. AS YOU SLIDE THE RIFLE BACKWARDS, YOUR FORWARD HAND TRAVELS FORWARD ALONG THE FOREARM OF THE RIFLE.

Now, add the sling. Put your forward hand back where you found it when you took note of the position. Tighten the sling until the rifle is supported, and the force applied to your shoulder is reasonably augmented by the sling.

Take note of all those settings, and then get to shooting.