Sig Kilo 3000 vs Vortex Fury 5000 vs Nikon Laserforce

[JM4590]

Soooooo.....looking at these 3 LRF Bino’s. They will be used for PRS and no hunting. I do not have a BDX scope and will not be purchasing one. not getting the Kestrel 5700 either. This is my budget, so although I know Leica, Zeiss, Swaro have better glass, this where I’m at $$$wise.
If you have one of these and care to post, I would very much appreciate your input. If you have one of the High $$$ models and can make a legit case as to why I should abandon my budget and move up, I’ll listen.

 

[b6graham]

I much prefer the sig to the vortex. Glass is much better across a wide sampling. Havent seen the nikon but it ranges about half the distance

 

[tlsmith22]

I hope this thread gets lots of replies, I am exactly where JM4590 is on this. I want to go Vortex but I’m not set on it. I haven’t looked thru either one yet.

 

[sam4886]

I'm interested in these as well, primarily the SIG and vortex. Glass quality is a consideration, but ranging ability is the priority. How do the range finders compare?

 

[Yerman]

I looked through a Kilo 3000 and I was not impressed with the glass.

For the price, I would buy a 5700 and 2400BDX. The BDX will talk to the Kestrel and range out to 2500+ yards.

I know I have one for sale so this is a bias opinion, but to me, the only better combo is a Terrapin X and Kestrel which is why I’m selling my BDX. I need to range over two miles and the BDX can’t get there. If you are not ranging that far, it’s your best option.

 

[sam4886]

Personally, I'm trying to consolidate gear. If the low $1000 range of LRF binos will range 1500 or so on steel and have acceptable glass, I'm all for it. My primary binos are 10x Nikon somethings I paid about $250 for a long time ago so anything should be an upgrade.

I would use them on the range, obviously, but I don't need the software onboard. I use my phone. I would use them hunting, too, and like the idea of one less thing to carry around. Shots long enough to require dope will have enough time to punch it into my phone.

 

[TexasGunSlinger]

I have the Leica Geovid HD-B 3000 and while they are amazing, I spent some quality time behind the Fury a few weeks ago and they are pretty close. I can definitely recommend the Vortex at that price point.

 

[GySgt Smith JE]

While on an elk hunt a month ago, I had the opportunity to spend a decent amount of time behind the Fury 5000. While sitting around midday we were messing around and were easily able to range trees and bigger rocks/boulders out to 1700 yards. The glass in them is extremely nice in my opinion and would serve you well for your price range.

 

[Mk32784]

Got a pair of 3000BDXs for $900, they talk to my Garmin 701. Glass is good enough to see vapor trails out to 1000 yards and spot impacts. Couldn't be happier, espically for all in one unit to take with me to field matches.

 

[MosesTheTank]

I have no experience with the Vortex or Nikon. I've had this 3000BDX for about a month and I have only 1 complaint, the holdover readout is one digit short of what it should be (if I'm missing a setup step here please let me know). I have bino glass that is better (and more expensive), but these get the job done just fine. They are easy to set up and use and it is more comfortable spending time glassing with binos over a monocular. The 10x was also a plus for me.

I set up at the top of a building in Atlanta and found out what could and could not be done with these. It was no problem to sit behind them for about 90 minutes.

I use them with a 5700 and I would have gladly paid more for the 3000 to get the same AB Elite software along with environmental sensors. This is something to keep in mind if you don't have a 5700 or 701, the 3000BDX has the lite version of the software. This may be limiting for you.

I have tested Sig's distance claims and I don't think this unit really lives up to them. The reasonable limit is about 2500yds (buildings/a sports stadium) unless it is a massive (like a mountain) non-reflective object, then you can get a bit further. As for deer/sheep/goats it seems maybe ~1500 is the limit. I got a cow at 1800 but I would not want to bet my life on doing that reliably. For me and the reason I bought these this is all I need.

The use case for these is a team match that will have us ranging steel no further than 1200. These will absolutely get that job done. I have enough time with them with a variety of steel to be confident in saying that. The 5700 integration is seamless and the next test is to see if they can quickly and easily switch between the 5700 and the 701 my buddy has.

 

[JM4590]

I use them with a 5700 and I would have gladly paid more for the 3000 to get the same AB Elite software along with environmental sensors. This is something to keep in mind if you don't have a 5700 or 701, the 3000BDX has the lite version of the software. This may be limiting for you

How much benefit do you find this to be? I currently use a Leica 1600B and a Kestrel 4000? with AB. Is the $$$$ investment worth it? As I understand it, you range your target and the ballistic data is then displayed in the Kilo from the 5700. I love the AB program in the Kestrel. I can make first round hits always with the solution it provides. I’m guessing accuracy remains the the same with the Kestrel and Sig paired up?

 

[b6graham]

While on an elk hunt a month ago, I had the opportunity to spend a decent amount of time behind the Fury 5000. While sitting around midday we were messing around and were easily able to range trees and bigger rocks/boulders out to 1700 yards. The glass in them is extremely nice in my opinion and would serve you well for your price range.

i've seen both the fury and sig range to 3000+yards on non reflective targets

 

[P Hig]

I’m very impressed with the Sig, I find the glass and range capabilities work well for me.

 

[MosesTheTank]

How much benefit do you find this to be? I currently use a Leica 1600B and a Kestrel 4000? with AB. Is the $$$$ investment worth it? As I understand it, you range your target and the ballistic data is then displayed in the Kilo from the 5700. I love the AB program in the Kestrel. I can make first round hits always with the solution it provides. I’m guessing accuracy remains the the same with the Kestrel and Sig paired up?

That is exactly it, the BDX does the ranging then the Kestrel does the math. I just keep the kestrel in a pouch on a shoulder strap. I had it there few a few hours today and I didn't once have to take it out and swing it. The only need to touch the Kestrel was to change profiles when switching guns. I really like the way it works. For me the benefit is significant.

As I said above, my one complaint is that the BDX only gives me tenths while the Kestrel gives me hundredths. Below this is the 0.8 vs 0.82. I'll contact Sig to see if there is something that can be done.

 

[GySgt Smith JE]

i've seen both the fury and sig range to 3000+yards on non reflective targets

I have no doubt that they’re both capable of those ranges. The 1700 yards was the top of the mountain next to our camp. I’m sure if we would have had a chance to range further they would have easily.

 

[sam4886]

I've gotta know.... You can actually hold to the hundredth? Or it just one of those things that bugs you for no real reason?

 

[MosesTheTank]

I've gotta know.... You can actually hold to the hundredth? Or it just one of those things that bugs you for no real reason?

A question back at you: does 1/3 of a MOA matter?

The absence of the hundredths place does not mean +/- 0.01. It means the range of 0.00 to 0.09. This is a significant difference.

We saw an output of 0.82 from the Kestrel reflected as 0.8 in the BDX. Without looking at the Kestrel how could we interpret 0.8? We just need to understand how numbers are rounded, in this case from hundredths to tenths.

0.8 shown in the BDX represents the range of outputs from 0.75 to 0.84 in the Kestrel.

In the below chart we see the angular measurement in inches as we go from 0.75 to 0.84 mils from 100 to 1,200 yards. At 100 yards an output of 0.8 in the BDX can mean a range of 2.7" to 3.0", or 0.34 MOA. The target ranged was 253 yards and the range of values is still 0.34 MOA.

How do we do this? By observing the rules for rounding decimals to the nearest tenths:

- To round a decimal analyse the digit at the hundredths place.

- If the hundredths place value is 5 or more than 5, then the digit at the tenths place increases by 1 and the digits at the hundredths place and thereafter becomes zero.

Does it matter? YES! My match rifle is an honest 0.5 MOA gun. The range of values shown above indicate I can add up 0.34 MOA to that based on the imprecision of the hold presented. At 0.84 MOA I am back to the reloading bench to figure things out.

I am sure some reading this have already figured that I should be measuring the distance from 0.8 to get a +/- loss of precision for bullet placement and not the whole range. This is true and is why I have chosen to keep the BDX.

In all fairness I haven't spoken to anyone at Sig about this.

 

[sam4886]

Fair enough. Very thorough explanation. I didn't realize the SIG was rounding up or down, I assumed it was just leaving off the hundredths digit. .70 to .79 would display as .7, etc.

You are right though, .89 is pretty different than .8 when you get out there a ways.

 

[b6graham]

Fair enough. Very thorough explanation. I didn't realize the SIG was rounding up or down, I assumed it was just leaving off the hundredths digit. .70 to .79 would display as .7, etc.

You are right though, .89 is pretty different than .8 when you get out there a ways.

i assume it does not round .89 down to .8 that goes against all math

so assuming a reading of .8 is somewhere between .75 and .84 which is normal rounding, how would you dial/hold the ends of those? dial to .8 and hold high/low? can you hold 1/2 of one tenth of a mil?

 

[sam4886]

I sure as hell can't, that was my original point, but I'm guessing that most of the issue with the guy above is because he's anal, not necessarily holding to the hundredth of a mil. No judgment from me, but all the excel spreadsheets and stuff give me that impression.

 

[b6graham]

I sure as hell can't, that was my original point, but I'm guessing that most of the issue with the guy above is because he's anal, not necessarily holding to the hundredth of a mil. No judgment from me, but all the excel spreadsheets and stuff give me that impression.

for reference. ballisticsARC (chart mode) and strelok both round to the .1 as well

 

[MosesTheTank]

i assume it does not round .89 down to .8 that goes against all math

so assuming a reading of .8 is somewhere between .75 and .84 which is normal rounding, how would you dial/hold the ends of those? dial to .8 and hold high/low? can you hold 1/2 of one tenth of a mil?

You are correct in the rounding. Apologies if I was unclear about that. My point was that without looking at the Kestrel you have no idea where you are between 0.75 and 0.84. I can definitely hold that difference. Would it make a difference to you if your Kestrel read 0.75 vs 0.84?

I feel like I'm tearing apart this unit, which is not at all what I intended.

What kind of math are you using to get 0.84 - 0.75 = 1/2 of a tenth?

 

[MosesTheTank]

I sure as hell can't, that was my original point, but I'm guessing that most of the issue with the guy above is because he's anal, not necessarily holding to the hundredth of a mil. No judgment from me, but all the excel spreadsheets and stuff give me that impression.

Same question, how to you get 0.09 = 1/100th? I promise you there is a difference. That spreadsheet and the rounding lesson only existed for you.

 

[b6graham]

You are correct in the rounding. Apologies if I was unclear about that. My point was that without looking at the Kestrel you have no idea where you are between 0.75 and 0.84. I can definitely hold that difference. Would it make a difference to you if your Kestrel read 0.75 vs 0.84?

I feel like I'm tearing apart this unit, which is not at all what I intended.

What kind of math are you using to get 0.84 - 0.75 = 1/2 of a tenth?

.8-.75= .05 = 1/2 a tenth = center dot on milxt
..84-.8 = .04 = 4/10 = roughly line thickness on milxt (.033)

 

[sam4886]

Same question, how to you get 0.09 = 1/100th? I promise you there is a difference. That spreadsheet and the rounding lesson only existed for you.

Don't worry, I'm fully aware of how to round. I didn't say 1/100th, I was referring to the hundredths place on the decimal.

I don't know of a scope that has markings on turrets or reticles for .0x mils. If you can hold that precisely, cool beans, you're a better shooter than me.

I think the message here is that the difference between .76 and .84 mills is so damn miniscule it shouldn't matter a whole lot. If having the extra digit displayed makes you feel better that's fine too.

Most mil scopes have subtentions of .2 mils, right? So take that, cut it in half, and you've got .1. I can see holding in the middle of that just fine. If you take that .1 and cut it into 10 sections you can get .11 or .17 or whatever. I don't see being able to hold those differences.

So we take that back to our example - .76 to .84. You (or maybe just me) could hold at the crosses at .6 or .8, or hold the middle at .7. Anything more precise than that is just a WAG somewhere on the line towards one side or the other.

So, long story short, you like the sigs? The glass is good enough and you didn't have any problems with the range function besides the dope display?

 

[davere]

Most mil scopes have subtentions of .2 mils, right? So take that, cut it in half, and you've got .1. I can see holding in the middle of that just fine. If you take that .1 and cut it into 10 sections you can get .11 or .17 or whatever. I don't see being able to hold those differences.

I read through the whole thread and was thinking this same thought. I can dial to a tenth. I can maybe hold to .05 at best, given that my reticle is subtended in .2 MRAD. So, when using my Kestrel, I generally round per general math rules - and I maybe hold just ever so slightly high/low if needed. But, for the most part, this is like measuring with a caliper and cutting with a chainsaw (to make an extreme analogy). Any hold inside of a tenth of an MRAD is essentially a guesstimate and not what I'd call precise.

 

[ThisGuy]

Do the sig also give wind hold?

 

[Mach U]

I just ordered the sig, the fury was 1st choice, but the sig will do more for $70 less than the fury

 

[Kane0519]

To clarify, the Fury does not sync with a Kestre correct?

 

[sam4886]

Correct.