Sig P320 Fires in Holster? : Sig's Response to Montville CT Police Dept.

[Milf Dots]

Here is Sig Sauer's official response to the Unintended Discharge that occurred with an improperly holstered p320 at Montville, CT police Department:

SIG SAUER Statement on Montville, CT Police Department Incident

www.sigsauer.com

​

SIG SAUER Statement on Montville, CT Police Department Incident​

July 31, 2023


NEWINGTON, N.H., (July 31, 2023): SIG SAUER has the following statement relative to a reported unintentional discharge from an officer at the Montville, CT Police Department on Monday, July 24, 2023:
“We have seen the news reporting of the incident involving a P320 discharge at the Montville (CT) Police Department. We are confident, as is the case in all instances, that when the factors and evidence are reviewed this will be proven to be an unintentional discharge as a result of inadvertent contact with the trigger, and that the pistol did not fire without a trigger pull.
In reviewing the video footage of this incident currently available, it appears that the involved firearm was not fully seated in its holster and the holster retention hood was not fully closed over the pistol at the time of discharge (images below). This improperly holstered condition would have left the firearm’s trigger exposed and vulnerable to actuation. Even if properly holstered, the features of the involved holster allow for foreign object intrusion and interaction with the trigger, as has been seen in other incidents.
We regret that the involved agency jumped to conclusions regarding the cause of this discharge without first carefully examining the footage of the incident and providing SIG SAUER with an opportunity to assist in the examination of the involved firearm.

The P320 model firearm is used effectively and safely every day, by both civilians and armed professionals. Despite years of litigation and extensive discovery, no one has ever been able to replicate a condition under which the P320 could discharge without a trigger pull, and experts who have attempted to assert such a claim have been repeatedly thrown out of court as unqualified and/or unreliable. Three separate federal courts (in the matters of Frankenberry v. SIG SAUER, Mayes v. SIG SAUER, and Hilton v. SIG SAUER) have concluded that the two experts who have proffered a theory of uncommanded discharge are unfit to testify in court because they are unqualified and/or their opinions are untested and unreliable. In the only case regarding a P320 discharge to proceed to a full trial (Guay v. SIG SAUER), a jury of 12 rejected these experts’ unproven and unscientific theory, and found unanimously in favor of SIG SAUER. SIG SAUER stands behind the proven safety and reliability of the P320.”

 

[WhoIsPat]

How many times have they been sued? How many police departments have had safety concerns/issues and switched away from Sig?

Of course this is preaching to the choir but this isn't the first time the p320 has been in the spotlight for issues and I don't feel like its the last.

 

[Milf Dots]

How many times have they been sued? How many police departments have had safety concerns/issues and switched away from Sig?

Of course this is preaching to the choir but this isn't the first time the p320 has been in the spotlight for issues and I don't feel like its the last.

Did you NOT see the photos above showing the incorrectly holstered p320 as the cause?

Sig hasn't lost any of the suits, and three were dismissed outright, and they've only settled one suit in which the plaintiffs didn't prove their case.

If Sig hadn't screwed up with the p320 by allowing the trigger assembly mass/weight to creep up, causing the drop firing because of inertia, I don't think anyone would be claiming the p320 has issues firing on its own untouched by human hands.

I think Sig should've offered the bladed trigger safety for drop firing like on most if not all other poly striker pistols.

 

[WhoIsPat]

Did you NOT see the photos above showing the incorrectly holstered p320 as the cause?

Sig hasn't lost any of the suits, and three were dismissed outright, and they've only settled one suit in which the plaintiffs didn't prove their case.

If Sig hadn't screwed up with the p320 by allowing the trigger assembly mass/weight to creep up, causing the drop firing because of inertia, I don't think anyone would be claiming the p320 has issues firing on its own untouched by human hands.

I think Sig should've offered the bladed trigger safety for drop firing like on most if not all other poly striker pistols.

Sure it looks like its been incorrectly holstered BUT how many glocks, M&Ps, etc have gone off from being incorrectly holstered by police? Why are we only seeing this with Sigs?

 

[M4guru]

There are nunerous accounts of improperly holstered Glocks going off. I’ve seen three first-hand in 24 years around Glocks, two were guys with drawstring hems on their jackets that hung down in the holster. One was only a UTM round, the other was live. The third was from a piece of spent 5.56 brass that landed in a Safariland 6004 holster, which was wild.

The two guys who had rounds go off from the jacket strings were adamant that you can’t look at your holster when you stow your gun FWIW…

I still carry a Glock every day, but there isn’t anything to stop the trigger if something pulls it…finger, shirt string, floppy holster, spent brass…whatever. Trigger don’t know the difference.

 

[doubloon]

I still carry a Glock every day, but there isn’t anything to stop the trigger if something pulls it…finger, shirt string, floppy holster, spent brass…whatever. Trigger don’t know the difference.

Si.

10 or so years ago Glock was in the grinder for its "unsafe" short action trigger pull (or something like that) being the "culprit" for "accidental" discharges resulting in lawsuit payouts over deaths.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Just because the SLS is down doesn't mean the ALS is disengaged.

 

[Milf Dots]

Just because the SLS is down doesn't mean the ALS is disengaged.

Based on the obvious way his pistol is sticking up high in the pics, we know the ALS wasn't engaged, and as a general rule we all know that most Safariland Light Bearing Duty Holsters have lots of necessary gaps and space- which allows foreign objects to enter the holster, and allows the pistol to move around quite a bit until it's truly locked down correctly in the holster.

 

[LawnMM]

Their response was dumb, I think the hood is up, they're pointing at a tourniquet time Velcro strap.

I like the 320, a lot. I think it's what it always is, people getting shit caught on the trigger. This particular gun is very unforgiving of careless handling.

This initially looked to me like it was riding high, I looked at where my own sits in a 6000 series holster, it's the same.

There's some guy claiming if you vise it forward of the ejection port and give it some whacks with a rubber mallet at the rear it'll drop the striker.

Tried that too, nada. There's a new version of the 6000 series that's supposed to fit a 320 with an enclosed emitter better, have one on the way I'm curious if they moved the gap inward by the trigger guard.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Based on the obvious way his pistol is sticking up high in the pics, we know the ALS wasn't engaged, and as a general rule we all know that most Safariland Light Bearing Duty Holsters have lots of necessary gaps and space- which allows foreign objects to enter the holster, and allows the pistol to move around quite a bit until it's truly locked down correctly in the holster.

No, you don't know it. And there's no "we", only your opinion. There are an equal, or greater, number of people voicing an opposite opinion to yours.

 

[JoshPutman]

Interestingly, 1911's don't have that problem.

 

[StaveyIL]

No one likes to admit when they shoot themselves. Which is the case here.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

This keeps happening and Sig keeps blaming it on the holster or user. This literally doesn't happen with any other pistol and it keeps happening over and over again with one very specific model. How many times does it need to happen before the pattern is obvious enough?

Before anyone calls me a SIg hater, I am. I was heavily invested in P320's (8 pistols and over 50 mags) and P365's (6 pistols and over 50 mags) and dumped it all at a huge loss because I started having problems with them. They were assholes to deal with on warranty issues too. Against my better judgement I still bought an MCX and a Cross afterwards. Fuck Sig.

 

[DocRDS]

Man i thought I responded to this earlier when it was in the bear pit.

Sig 320 has had a rough history and this is just the latest. Point being: This only seems to happen to Sigs, not Glocks, Springfields, CZ, Walther, S&W, etc (striker models)

I think the evidence is there its got a problem with the striker release/sear/whatever it is.

One of the respected guys in handgun shooting (or maybe not respected, but "accomplished" lol) mentioned that if this gun were a Taurus, we'd be using it as evidence of how crappy Taurus is. Sig is using its name to deflect criticism from the evidence I have seen. Its not just this once incident--there was also the early "drop fire" problem (Sure we fixed that....)

 

[doubloon]

This literally doesn't happen with any other pistol

nope, never ... fkn karens and nancys everywhere you look

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/11/18/armed-and-unready/419a50bf-23b0-4175-93ee-33211044c8df/

Arkansas cop sues Glock after shooting himself in the foot with pistol

Larry Jones, a police officer from Cherry Valley, Arkansas, shot himself in the foot as he was in a local shooting range trying to outfit his Glock 19C pistol with a tactical light.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Op-Ed: Why the police shouldn't use Glocks

Timothy Stansbury died in a New York housing project stairwell in 2004 because he startled a police officer.

www.latimes.com

Wasylow v. Glock, Inc., 975 F. Supp. 370 (D. Mass. 1996)

Wasylow v. Glock, Inc., 975 F. Supp. 370 (D. Mass. 1996) case opinion from the U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts

law.justia.com

 

[FuhQ]

 

[LawnMM]

Ever hear the term "Glock leg"? It didn't originate with Sig. The Springfields have had barrel lug failures and the XDM (19rd mags) series have absolute shit mag springs that don't last. Who's left? Smith? They can't cut a dovetail properly so optics can clamp securely and the grip straps on the 1.0 series were shit.

They all have quirks. This design is unforgiving with foolishness and PDs are not exempt from foolishness. I look at it more as an enthusiasts weapon. Not one for mass rollout but that's me.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

nope, never ... fkn karens and nancys everywhere you look

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/11/18/armed-and-unready/419a50bf-23b0-4175-93ee-33211044c8df/

Arkansas cop sues Glock after shooting himself in the foot with pistol

Larry Jones, a police officer from Cherry Valley, Arkansas, shot himself in the foot as he was in a local shooting range trying to outfit his Glock 19C pistol with a tactical light.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Op-Ed: Why the police shouldn't use Glocks

Timothy Stansbury died in a New York housing project stairwell in 2004 because he startled a police officer.

www.latimes.com

Wasylow v. Glock, Inc., 975 F. Supp. 370 (D. Mass. 1996)

Wasylow v. Glock, Inc., 975 F. Supp. 370 (D. Mass. 1996) case opinion from the U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts

law.justia.com

So your examples of Glocks going off by themselves are examples where the pistols were literally in their fucking hands and they pulled the trigger?

How is that the same as the dozens of P320's firing unprovoked INSIDE OF A FUCKING HOLSTER?

I hope you didn't procreate.

 

[doubloon]

So your examples of Glocks going off by themselves are examples where the pistols were literally in their fucking hands and they pulled the trigger?

And you apparently believe guns can fire themselves.

Obviously your parents failed to procreate.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

And you apparently believe guns can fire themselves.

Obviously your parents failed to procreate.

I guess you've never heard of a striker or sear failing. When a P320's striker fails so does the block. It's a shitty design.

 

[ToddM]

"We are confident, as is the case in all instances, that when the factors and evidence are reviewed this will be proven to be an unintentional discharge as a result of inadvertent contact with the trigger, and that the pistol did not fire without a trigger pull."

All instances.......except of course the ones Military drop testing repeatably could get to discharge that Sig was then required to modify the design of under an ECP to pass testing, and then decided not to flow those same design changes to their civilian guns until the public caught wind of it, and then only offered it as an optional upgrade........

Not saying the majority of 320's discharging are not due to user error, but I feel like at this point we've seen so many of these, there's probably a design issue at play in at least some of them.

 

[DocRDS]

"We are confident, as is the case in all instances, that when the factors and evidence are reviewed this will be proven to be an unintentional discharge as a result of inadvertent contact with the trigger, and that the pistol did not fire without a trigger pull."

All instances.......except of course the ones Military drop testing repeatably could get to discharge that Sig was then required to modify the design of under an ECP to pass testing, and then decided not to flow those same design changes to their civilian guns until the public caught wind of it, and then only offered it as an optional upgrade........

Not saying the majority of 320's discharging are not due to user error, but I feel like at this point we've seen so many of these, there's probably a design issue at play in at least some of them.

This. Idiots and guns is bad mojo and there are plenty of idiots who put the booger hook on the banger thing and the wrong time.

HOWEVER, there are documented cases of the Sig firing without the trigger being depressed. Yes, it is not spontaneous, but when some external force is applied through the gun, the striker is released with the trigger safety engaged.

In the "real good ol days" you didn't load your six-shooters with 6 because the hammer (and firing pin) rested on a live primer. Now we have a trigger bar that blocks the pin unless the trigger is pulled. What's happening is analogous to that trigger bar moving out of the way without the trigger being depressed. Trigger safety SHOULD block the striker, but it has been demonstrated via drop tests that early Sig 320 models would release the striker unimpeded upon impact from a drop. Now we have instances on bumps and jostles setting off the gun.

I'm suspicious as hell because Sig denied the first one and it was ALL OVER the internet and even became a gun meme.

skip to about 2:30 (reminder: Sig Denied this was a problem!)


sig denial: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...ment-sig-sauer-reaffirms-safety-p-320-pistol/

 

[Milf Dots]

"We are confident, as is the case in all instances, that when the factors and evidence are reviewed this will be proven to be an unintentional discharge as a result of inadvertent contact with the trigger, and that the pistol did not fire without a trigger pull."

All instances.......except of course the ones Military drop testing repeatably could get to discharge that Sig was then required to modify the design of under an ECP to pass testing, and then decided not to flow those same design changes to their civilian guns until the public caught wind of it, and then only offered it as an optional upgrade........

Not saying the majority of 320's discharging are not due to user error, but I feel like at this point we've seen so many of these, there's probably a design issue at play in at least some of them.

FIFY.
It's NOT settled fact that the military testing found the drop fire issue- it's UNsettled and there is conflicting info about it from people who were directly involved in the MHS pistol program like Ash Hess who says it didn't fail drop testing, and the fact it suddenly appeared in the later documents that the Army did find it failed drop testing. Again, that is UNSettled and not fact.

As for your second sentence- it's an opinion like any other. Only Sig may know if there are post voluntary upgrade p320s that are firing uncommanded due to some flaw/defect/QC issue.

 

[Forrest84]

Sorry but as hard as I look at it, I can only tell the hood is open that’s all

 

[Downzero]

The Sig P320 is a jammomatic piece of junk anyway. If it turns out to also be dangerous, that'd just be the icing on the cake.

There are three absolutely proven striker fired plastic pistols on the market, the Glock, the M&P, and the various Springfield Armory XD/XD-S pistols. There is no need, and no room, for any more. The P320 has acquired some kind of cult following even though it has had so many problems throughout its life. We, as gun owners, should just cut our losses.

 

[ToddM]

FIFY.
It's NOT settled fact that the military testing found the drop fire issue- it's UNsettled and there is conflicting info about it from people who were directly involved in the MHS pistol program like Ash Hess who says it didn't fail drop testing, and the fact it suddenly appeared in the later documents that the Army did find it failed drop testing. Again, that is UNSettled and not fact.

As for your second sentence- it's an opinion like any other. Only Sig may know if there are post voluntary upgrade p320s that are firing uncommanded due to some flaw/defect/QC issue.

That's cute, but when the documentation on the program and testing says it DID happen and required mechanical changes to the weapon to pass drop fire testing I'll trust that over hearsay. Not only that but if there wasn't a problem why would Sig have to make changes under an ECP. Unless the claim is now that the Army didn't direct Sig to make changes to the design under an ECP.

https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2017/army/2017mhs.pdf?ver=2019-08-19-113850-680

Sounds a lot like Sig as much as admitted to members of the gun media that there was a vulnerability at a -30 deg drop. It passed all civilian testing because none of the standard tests actually performs drops at that angle.

SIG SAUER Acknowledges P320 Trigger Issues With -30deg Drop, M17 MHS Unaffected, Announces Voluntary P320 Upgrade - Soldier Systems Daily

In response to recent internet reporting on the safety of the SIG SAUER P320, the company invited us, and other members of the gun media, to their facility in New Hampshire to address the issues. Because the US Army's new M17/18 Modular Handgun System is based on the commercial SIG P320, I...

soldiersystems.net

 

[Clob McStrunk]

Spoons make people fat

 

[Milf Dots]

The Sig P320 is a jammomatic piece of junk anyway. If it turns out to also be dangerous, that'd just be the icing on the cake.

There are three absolutely proven striker fired plastic pistols on the market, the Glock, the M&P, and the various Springfield Armory XD/XD-S pistols. There is no need, and no room, for any more. The P320 has acquired some kind of cult following even though it has had so many problems throughout its life. We, as gun owners, should just cut our losses.

Owners of the excellent H&K VP models, CZ P10 models, Beretta APX pistols, and Walther PPQ & PDP models- would beg to differ.

 

[Thump_rrr]

The Sig P320 is a jammomatic piece of junk anyway. If it turns out to also be dangerous, that'd just be the icing on the cake.

There are three absolutely proven striker fired plastic pistols on the market, the Glock, the M&P, and the various Springfield Armory XD/XD-S pistols. There is no need, and no room, for any more. The P320 has acquired some kind of cult following even though it has had so many problems throughout its life. We, as gun owners, should just cut our losses.

You forgot HK :-(

 

[hlee]

I’m hesitant to walk into this dumpster fire, but here goes. In the early days of the plastic fantastic, Glock was sued by a customer for a g17 that “fired on its own.” Potentially damning for the defense, the pistol was in its manufacturer supplied box when the incident occurred. As it turns out, at the time, the Glock pistol case had a little extension molded into either the lid or the base, meant to interface with the interior of the trigger guard and keep the gun from rattling around. Herr Glock, familiar only with the strict firearms safety of Germany, had not thought that a goober in Alabama would store a loaded pistol in that box. This is covered in some detail in Glock: The Rise of America’s Gun.

Moral? Stupidity always rises to meet the challenge.

 

[JoshPutman]

 

[doubloon]

View attachment 8196614

Completely inaccurate ... that drop angle is off.

 

[mark5pt56]

The Sig P320 is a jammomatic piece of junk anyway. If it turns out to also be dangerous, that'd just be the icing on the cake.

There are three absolutely proven striker fired plastic pistols on the market, the Glock, the M&P, and the various Springfield Armory XD/XD-S pistols. There is no need, and no room, for any more. The P320 has acquired some kind of cult following even though it has had so many problems throughout its life. We, as gun owners, should just cut our losses.

In my opinion, two reasons--it's the perfect platform to play dress up as folks can configure it in so many ways. Sig does play the market and how many SKU's are for this gun? The other is that people are lazy and either are unable or willing to learn trigger manipulation on a CARRY gun and want a light almost non existent trigger weight.

 

[doubloon]

In my opinion, two reasons--it's the perfect platform to play dress up as folks can configure it in so many ways. Sig does play the market and how many SKU's are for this gun? The other is that people are lazy and either are unable or willing to learn trigger manipulation on a CARRY gun and want a light almost non existent trigger weight.

Fair.

In some ways Glock has just as many "SKU's" but they change the model number. Glock has 9mm in the 17, 19, 19x, 26, 34, 45 ... did I miss any? I think the 19 most often gets compared to the P320 but I *think* the P320 subcompact gets compared more often to one of the others.

Agreed, the P320 has a "nice" trigger and most people shouldn't have a "nice" trigger without at least a manual or trigger safety.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The Sig P320 is a jammomatic piece of junk anyway. If it turns out to also be dangerous, that'd just be the icing on the cake.

There are three absolutely proven striker fired plastic pistols on the market, the Glock, the M&P, and the various Springfield Armory XD/XD-S pistols. There is no need, and no room, for any more. The P320 has acquired some kind of cult following even though it has had so many problems throughout its life. We, as gun owners, should just cut our losses.

This has gotten to be one of the dumbest fucking things I have ever read on this website, which is an accomplishment in itself.. Stop posting, delete your account and come back in 20 years when you have learned some semblence of firearm knowledge.

I could spend half a day explaining how stupid this post is, why you are wrong, but fuck that. Be like trying to teach a chicken calculus.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Its really hard to know why it happened, outside of a controlled environment.

SO many people have shot themselves or had an ND (Not re holstering properly is negligent because it is preventable.) due to in-proper holstering/foreign object that I can't believer every trainer and academy does not beat this into the head of every cadet or student so this does not happen. Some of the legit trainers like Pat Mac and Vickers do, but many don't. You need to visually clear and inspect your holster before you return the pistol to it. You do not wear cloths with snag hazards when you are carrying a pistol. You make sure your Kit/Armor is secure so it does not have shit that can fall or dangle into the holster.

Sig is a piece of shit company that generally makes piece of shit products bought by retards, including the DOD. With that being said, its hard to blame them when you don't know what happened. Could be the shooter, the holster, the gun or some combination of all of them. If it was a drop fire, then thats easy to blame them because it has been proven to be repeatable, so much so SIG had an RMA and re-engineered trigger for all effected guns, including all M17 and M18 issued at the time. A gun going off in the holster is almost ALWAYS the fault of the user.

 

[ToddM]

In my opinion, two reasons--it's the perfect platform to play dress up as folks can configure it in so many ways. Sig does play the market and how many SKU's are for this gun? The other is that people are lazy and either are unable or willing to learn trigger manipulation on a CARRY gun and want a light almost non existent trigger weight.

Sig's best quality as a company, by FAR is their marketing hype. Pretty much every new gun they've released in the last 10 years has had major problems that should have never made it past any semblance of pre-production quality assurance. MPX, MCX, 320, 365, Cross, 210, the list goes on. Now to be fair, lots of gun companies have issues, and there are some things that no testing will find till you get thousands of units out in the wild with high round counts. However, most of Sig's issues become obvious in the first 6 months of release, if not sooner. The MPX didn't even make a year before it needed a generational level change, and even Gen 2 was so bad they had to redesign several parts of the upper, bolt, firing pin, and gas system. The problem with Sig is by the time they get the kinks worked out, they discontinue or change to a new design that's not backwards compatible. Which again Sig loves cause you're buying a new gun.

That said, you can't blame Sig, as long as people are stupid enough to keep lining up to be alpha and beta testers for them and pay premium prices to do so, not Sig's fault.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

10? Try 20+ Ever since they were taken over by Cohen, the same guy who ruined Kimber of Oregon before destroying SIGUSA.

And lets be clear, Sig's reputation was not build from SIGUSA or US made guns. Their reputation was from guns made in Germany(west and post unification) and Switzerland. The guys rocking sigs in the 80's and 90s' were almost exclusively shooting euro guns. SIGUSA found a way to make the gun cheaper because they did not have the huge machines that could do folded slides, and its been downhill ever since. Its also why sigs made in germany or west germany sell for like twice what a US P series goes for. The market knows whats up.

But you are spot on. They come out with a new design. Do not test it and use their marketing department (which must be 10 times the size of their engineering and QA/QC) to get idiots to buy their shit. They they use those idiots as beta testers who paid full price to learn what needs to be fixed. Sig then refines the gun a few years later, leaves the gen 1 people in the dust. Many times the updated version will not be backwards compatible. They are a disgusting , abhorrent company and anyone who buys their shit deserves every fucking piece of grief they get. Idiots keep buying their shit so the cycle continues. Thats their business model.

 

[SmartDonkey]

Well- I'm not a tactical ninja.... but a few thoughts,

While it would be a good practice in theory to always visually inspect your holster before returning the gun-- but in some situations that seems a little dangerous to take your eyes off of what you are doing to look? And as far as keeping everything away from your holster- also, good-- but not really do-able. It's cold where I live- so many layers and snag points- plus your hands are either cold or you have gloves on.... so I decided to either carry a gun with a safety or a de-cocker and have my thumb on the hammer as holstering so if anything does snag the trigger- between the heavy pull and the hammer blocked then nothing will happen.

But- the amount of pushback I got for that was surprising.... people saying shit like "if you need a safety to holster a gun you shouldn't even carry one" or- "if you ever need your gun you wont be able to remove the safety under stress"....

So we send a bunch of people out with little training and tell them "good luck".....

I 100% believe that a properly holstered glock in a quality holster is not going to fire.... but have seen quite a few fire trying to get to that state. I don't have that same confidence level with sig.....

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Well- I'm not a tactical ninja.... but a few thoughts,

While it would be a good practice in theory to always visually inspect your holster before returning the gun-- but in some situations that seems a little dangerous to take your eyes off of what you are doing to look? And as far as keeping everything away from your holster- also, good-- but not really do-able. It's cold where I live- so many layers and snag points- plus your hands are either cold or you have gloves on.... so I decided to either carry a gun with a safety or a de-cocker and have my thumb on the hammer as holstering so if anything does snag the trigger- between the heavy pull and the hammer blocked then nothing will happen.

But- the amount of pushback I got for that was surprising.... people saying shit like "if you need a safety to holster a gun you shouldn't even carry one" or- "if you ever need your gun you wont be able to remove the safety under stress"....

So we send a bunch of people out with little training and tell them "good luck".....

I 100% believe that a properly holstered glock in a quality holster is not going to fire.... but have seen quite a few fire trying to get to that state. I don't have that same confidence level with sig.....

Think about what you just said. If there was any kind of threat, WHY would you be holstering? You holster when its safe. You dress around the gun, not the other way around.

This shit should be common sense but people are dumb so it needs to be taught in training classes.

And what do you consider a quality holster? Lots of retards think a Serpa is great, including the department of defense and many police agencies and departments. Those who actually are masters of the gun, do not allow them in their training courses, because they know better. Its a poor design that makes it easier for retards to have a ND.

When the baddest mother fuckers who spent 20 years in the most lethal unit in the world tell you that they were taught and they teach you to visualy look down everytime you holster, this is what we call a hint.

 

[Makinchips208]

This shit should be common sense but people are dumb so it needs to be taught in training classes.

And what do you consider a quality holster? Lots of retards think a Serpa is great, including the department of defense and many police agencies and departments. Those who actually are masters of the gun, do not allow them in their training courses, because they know better. Its a poor design that makes it easier for retards to have a ND.

This nonsense needs to die. Stop repeating it.
This is because stupid incompetent instructors don’t teach proper draw and usage with a pistol or a serpa holster.
It isn’t the holster. It isn’t the gun. It’s stupid instructors and untrained students.

I do think serpa holsters are inferior materials, prone to breakage or jamming junk in the mechanism, preventing any draw of the pistol.

 

[Downzero]

This has gotten to be one of the dumbest fucking things I have ever read on this website, which is an accomplishment in itself.. Stop posting, delete your account and come back in 20 years when you have learned some semblence of firearm knowledge.

I could spend half a day explaining how stupid this post is, why you are wrong, but fuck that. Be like trying to teach a chicken calculus.

So buy the jammomatic piece of shit if you want. Take it to a match so I can watch it jam. I'm sure yours will be just like all the others.

 

[sevensix2]

10? Try 20+ Ever since they were taken over by Cohen, the same guy who ruined Kimber of Oregon before destroying SIGUSA.

And lets be clear, Sig's reputation was not build from SIGUSA or US made guns. Their reputation was from guns made in Germany(west and post unification) and Switzerland. The guys rocking sigs in the 80's and 90s' were almost exclusively shooting euro guns. SIGUSA found a way to make the gun cheaper because they did not have the huge machines that could do folded slides, and its been downhill ever since. Its also why sigs made in germany or west germany sell for like twice what a US P series goes for. The market knows whats up.

But you are spot on. They come out with a new design. Do not test it and use their marketing department (which must be 10 times the size of their engineering and QA/QC) to get idiots to buy their shit. They they use those idiots as beta testers who paid full price to learn what needs to be fixed. Sig then refines the gun a few years later, leaves the gen 1 people in the dust. Many times the updated version will not be backwards compatible. They are a disgusting , abhorrent company and anyone who buys their shit deserves every fucking piece of grief they get. Idiots keep buying their shit so the cycle continues. Thats their business model.

Cohen? I think you might be on to something here...

 

[sevensix2]

I've been away from this forum for awhile. When did Snipers Hide become Reddit?

 

[RAVAGE88]

I've been away from this forum for quite a while and happened to trip over this thread while searching for something else. I won't say much about the subject and don't desire to join in on the antics, but the timing of seeing this thread is really interesting.

This press release came out today: https://www.theoutdoorwire.com/releases/26fdc072-c9ad-4495-bb48-485c294b9030

MB

 

[FALex]

I know of a CEO of a firearms accessory company that probably 99% of you would know (at least the company, not the CEO). This unfortunate fellow is missing both of his testicles as the result of appendickless carry with a Sig 365XL.

Unfortunately, the beans were cooked to the point of being unusable, but fortunately for him, the frank remains. This dude was also extremely fortunate that his femoral or internal iliac weren't clipped during this adventure.

And no, he did not squeeze the trigger whilst aiming at his beans. It was just a Sig doing Sig things. You know, like the newest feature that has come out in regards to their MCX Spears with the barrels bending and other awesome things.

But hey, Sig has given enough hardware, or in their case, software, to enough instaface and lamebook cool guys that the huge flaws get easily buried.

ETA - And just to be clear, I owned one of the earlier 320's, and that pile of shit would allow the striker to engage if you struck the back of the slide/tang area with the palm of your hand, dropped it at a few different angles, etc...These issues are not "new," they are simply becoming more prevalent as time has passed.

I believe @redneckbmxer24 is absolutely correct in these pistols having sear engagement issues. We already know Sig uses that MIM shit straight outta India, and that those parts wear much more easily than others (remember the 716 hammers that were "improperly heat treated"?) I think that as people use their pistols, the sear engagement just wears down to the point where it is no longer safe and any "jostling" of the pistol allows it to fire.

I have noticed many Sig owners who claim bullshit, try to put up a defense, state these issues have never occurred to them, etc...also have aftermarket triggers in their pistols.

 

[Milf Dots]

I know of a CEO of a firearms accessory company that probably 99% of you would know (at least the company, not the CEO). This unfortunate fellow is missing both of his testicles as the result of appendickless carry with a Sig 365XL.

Unfortunately, the beans were cooked to the point of being unusable, but fortunately for him, the frank remains. This dude was also extremely fortunate that his femoral or internal iliac weren't clipped during this adventure.

And no, he did not squeeze the trigger whilst aiming at his beans. It was just a Sig doing Sig things. You know, like the newest feature that has come out in regards to their MCX Spears with the barrels bending and other awesome things.

But hey, Sig has given enough hardware, or in their case, software, to enough instaface and lamebook cool guys that the huge flaws get easily buried.

Congrats on being the first I've heard of to blame a P365 series pistol for spontaneously going off on its own, unassisted, in a holster and causing serious injury- despite the millions of p365 models sold and being carried concealed.

Know that the p365 was a clean sheet design and has nothing in common with the p320 except for the lack of a trigger "drop safety" dingus.

Sorry if I don't take hearsay as credible... I'll wait for the "under-oath" facts from the owner of that pistol AND from investigation by objective experts:

1) Was the pistol totally stock, unmodded, and not damaged?
2) Can the owner of it prove he made no contact with the pistol, nor any foreign object inside the holster- or outside the holster, that would've moved the trigger?
3) Was the holster quality made and the proper fit?
4) Did the pistol have a light, laser, or optic attached that might have required a holster with bigger gaps that would allow for objects to enter more easily?
5) Is there video of it happening?

Sure it's possible, but your claim is hearsay.

 

[Milf Dots]

And, many of the FCU parts in the p365 that were made in India very early on were re-sourced to a U.S. MIM company- there are enough pics of retail parts in packaging to show that.

I need to find that security cam video of the AZ gun accessories company owner who bent down and had his g43 go off in his appendix carry holster... Reportedly part of his shirt got pushed down into his holster and caused the trigger press.

 

[FALex]

Congrats on being the first I've heard of to blame a P365 series pistol for spontaneously going off on its own, unassisted, in a holster and causing serious injury- despite the millions of p365 models sold and being carried concealed.

Know that the p365 was a clean sheet design and has nothing in common with the p320 except for the lack of a trigger "drop safety" dingus.

Sorry if I don't take hearsay as credible... I'll wait for the "under-oath" facts from the owner of that pistol AND from investigation by objective experts:

1) Was the pistol totally stock, unmodded, and not damaged?
2) Can the owner of it prove he made no contact with the pistol, nor any foreign object inside the holster- or outside the holster, that would've moved the trigger?
3) Was the holster quality made and the proper fit?
4) Did the pistol have a light, laser, or optic attached that might have required a holster with bigger gaps that would allow for objects to enter more easily?
5) Is there video of it happening?

Sure it's possible, but your claim is hearsay.

Well no shit it's hearsay. This info came from one of the dude's good friends. I know none of the answers to your questions.

With my and @redneckbmxer24's points about the softness of materials they're using, it is not outside the realm of possibility to fathom this issue occurring in other models.

 

[Milf Dots]

Well no shit it's hearsay. This info came from one of the dude's good friends. I know none of the answers to your questions.

With my and @redneckbmxer24's points about the softness of materials they're using, it is not outside the realm of possibility to fathom this issue occurring in other models.

Please substantiate with credible sources your claim of softness of materials in Sig's p365 FCU parts. It's easy for haters or fans of other pistols to take pot shots with zero facts, but it's intellectually dishonest.