Signs of Brass Nearing the End of its Reloading Life?

G

gunrgood

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Minuteman
Aug 28, 2012
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#1
Are there any subtle hints that can tell you (as a reloader) that the brass you've been loading for a while is done?
Besides the obvious blown case, or cracks at the case mouth.
Could you see scoring or discoloration and determine that this case has seen the end and give it a toss?

I've heard some 5.56/.223 brass from Lake City that has made it through 6-9 reloads before the loader figured it was time to toss it.
Are there any things to look for when sorting my brass besides the obvious that would tell me "this piece is done"?
 
#2
Annealing can help extend case life.

Check for incipient case separation.

hpim0660.jpg

6.jpg
 
#6
Name Enough said:
Paper Clip trick?? Please share with the non swimmers at the shallow end of the pool.
Click to expand...

Take a large paper clip and put a point on one end. Bend that pointed end at a 90 degree angle about 1/4 of an inch from the end. un-fold the paper clip straight and drag the pointed end from the bottom to the mouth of the case inside and you should be able to "feel" or catch the pointed end on any irregularities inside the case. In most cases you can probably see a ring in there if you look with a good light.
Look a Sinisters picture 1 but the paper clip goes on the inside.
 
#8
4cyl2v8 said:
Take a large paper clip and put a point on one end. Bend that pointed end at a 90 degree angle about 1/4 of an inch from the end. un-fold the paper clip straight and drag the pointed end from the bottom to the mouth of the case inside and you should be able to "feel" or catch the pointed end on any irregularities inside the case. In most cases you can probably see a ring in there if you look with a good light.
Look a Sinisters picture 1 but the paper clip goes on the inside.
Click to expand...
relo
Thanks for that info. I usually just stop when they don't want to hold primers. I also only reload for my M1A only once. Then the cases go to my AR 10 once and then to my bolt rifle.
 
#9
I keep track of my rifle case reloads. For example, my .223 brass only receives 5 reloads. This may seem a little "out there", but here's my procedure with new brass:

- Shoot a new case.
- Clean and reload the once fired case.
- After I fire that case, it goes in a container marked twice.
- Clean and reload the twice fired case.
- After I fire that case, it goes in a container makred three.
So on and so on. I have 4 containers for brass storage. When I hit 5 firings, I take the brass home, whack the bodies with a hammer, and put them in my scrap bucket. I do this just in case they happen to find a way from the scrap guy to another reloader's bench, at least they are unusable and not pawned off as "once fired brass".

- New brass = $.27 each
- 5 reloads = $.05 +/- each brass shot
- 6 reloads = $.045 +/- each brass shot
- 7 reloads = $.04 +/- each brass shot

As you can see, is it worth pushing the brass? That's a decision you have to make, but it doesn't equate in my risk/value assessment. One last thing, the scrap guy still gives me $.02 per case back ($1.60 per pound and 70 .223 cases with primers equal a pound).

.............. I need to get out more, haha.
 
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#10
What do you guys do with brass that has short necks? Is this a sign of someone else trimming it several times? I have a lot of "once fired" brass in LC 5.56 for an AR but after a FL sizing the length is 1.740, 1.744 etc....... I only load it if its 1.750 and go to a minimum 1.748. Can I still shoot the brass that has that much variance? I apologize if I hijacked this thread gunrgood, I thought it would relate to the question.
 
#11
I never had faith in using a bent paperclip, nor in counting how many times a case has been fired. The RCBS Case Mastering Gauge will tell you far more than a paperclip about thinning in the base web area and the condition of the case.

RCBSCMG_zpsb95d3710.jpg


Case life is based on the quality of the brass, shoulder bump/head clearance and chamber pressure.

The cases below were resized with the die making hard contact with the shell holder with press cam over. No attempt was made at controlling shoulder bump and the dies were set up as per the instructions.

308fail-1_zps30d387ab.jpg


The "stretching groove" noted below is the case stretching and thinning in the base web area caused by excessive shoulder bump/over resizing the case.

308fail2-1_zps3ca31f6b.jpg


Over resizing the case meaning excessive shoulder bump controls the cartridge cases head clearance or the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face. Setting your dies to contact the shell holder and the press reaching camover can create excessive shoulder bump and case stretching in the web area.

Brass is elastic and has the ability to spring back to its original shape, when you exceed the elastic limits the brass will stretch and thin. The shoulder bump/head clearance effects how far the brass has to stretch to meet the bolt face when fired and the more the case stretches the shorter it usable life will be.

HeadClearance_zpsf30a3af1.gif
 
#12
Ultraman550 said:
What do you guys do with brass that has short necks? Is this a sign of someone else trimming it several times? I have a lot of "once fired" brass in LC 5.56 for an AR but after a FL sizing the length is 1.740, 1.744 etc....... I only load it if its 1.750 and go to a minimum 1.748. Can I still shoot the brass that has that much variance? I apologize if I hijacked this thread gunrgood, I thought it would relate to the question.
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't pick up range brass for precision rifle. But I would surely not be worried about short necks on pick up brass if you are not worried about different mfg. and different head stamps, different neck thicknesses and brittleness or lack of annealing of unknown cases. Worrying about the difference between an OAL of 1.750 and 1.740 is just playing head games. And, if you are really concerned, (think it matters) why not trim all of it to 1.740?

However, if your goal is accuracy, buy your brass in one lot, and grade it and keep it separated in groups based on capacity. I only have bolt guns so none of my brass hits the floor and case life is routinely more than ten reloads, primarily because I stay away from excessive pressure. It starts getting economical, after initial outlay, if you discount my labor. BB
 
#13
I also think the focus on "incipient case separation" is a distraction. It should never happen, if a barrel has been headspaced properly, AND the cases resized properly. I have not had an incident involving case head separation since 1972, caused by a very well known gunsmith by the name of P.O. Ackley then corrected by another well known shop, Bain and Davis. It should be a rarity, and in my experience it is rare, caused by "pilot err". I suspect more people are incorrectly resizing their cases resulting in case head separation, than are caused by incompetent gunsmithing. But, I could be wrong, I guess? BB
 
#16
Proper setting of your sizing die will vastly improve brass life. Types of dies are also important to brass life. I really like body dies, properly set to minimize headspace to .001", and following up with a Lee collet neck sizing die to eliminate over working the neck. I have lost count of how many loading I have on my Winchester 308 brass. If you find yourself trimming your brass all the time, something needs to be corrected in your loading process... Other then that, loose primer pockets are all I look for.
 
#21
Bit of a bummer Lake City brass was not included in that brass endurance table. As heavy as that brass is, I would think it would perform similar to the Remington and Norma Brass.

I will say this though, I was surprised how the Remington brass performed, I have generally thought of Remington brass to be somewhat poor quality compared to Winchester. I have never been able to get 15 loads out of Remington brass. Makes me wonder how old that info is.
 
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#23
You know your brass has "Signs of Brass Nearing the End of its Reloading Life" when your shooting a mad minute with your Enfield rifle, have a hangfire and open the bolt before you should. And then you blow the ass end of the case off and the front end of the case is sucked into a black hole.

headspace-1_zps97d95b60.jpg
 
#24
jdgray said:
Proper setting of your sizing die will vastly improve brass life. If you find yourself trimming your brass all the time, something needs to be corrected in your loading process...
Click to expand...

Would you mind expanding on this? I ask because I seem to be trimming after almost every reload. Thanks!
 
#26
One way that necks get stretched is the sizing doe makes the next too small, then the expander ball being pulled through the neck stretches it.

This is where bushing dies are good. You adjust the bushing size to properly size the neck, and you may not even need the expander ball. Or for consistancy, just have it touch the neck as you pull the case out of the die.

Check your loading manual for the max length and trim to length. For a.308, the max case length is 2.015", the trim to is 2.005"

Make sure you are not trimming too soon and are trimming far enough.
 
#27
RHunter said:
Bit of a bummer Lake City brass was not included in that brass endurance table. As heavy as that brass is, I would think it would perform similar to the Remington and Norma Brass.

I will say this though, I was surprised how the Remington brass performed, I have generally thought of Remington brass to be somewhat poor quality compared to Winchester. I have never been able to get 15 loads out of Remington brass. Makes me wonder how old that info is.
Click to expand...

RHunter

The cases in the test I posted were resized with the press reaching cam over or maximum full length resizing/shoulder bump. What was missing in this test was the actual rifles headspace, meaning we don't know how far the shoulder was bumped back from its fired length.

The longevity of your cartridge cases depends on chamber pressure or how hot you load, the amount of shoulder bump, quality of the brass and quality of case construction. If you look at the chart Federal Military brass failed very early, Federal is known for soft brass and thinner cases. Lake City cases have harder brass in the base of the case to withstand larger diameter and longer military chambers.

556hard-a_zps7570e6b0.jpg


hardness-a_zps8d54ad66.jpg


Now look at the chart again and when the cases started to stretch listed in thousandths of an inch stretch, this is the quality of the brass and how the case is constructed during manufacture.

308fail2-1_zps3ca31f6b.jpg


I have 30-30 cases over 25 years old and they fail of cracked necks and never stretch in the base web area because the chamber pressure is only 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi.

Below is a animated image of a commercial SAAMI .303 British cartridge fired in a military Enfield chamber. The case is not made to military specification and it stretches badly in the longer headspaced chamber. A case thicker or harder in the base would not stretch as badly and would be able to handle the longer head gap clearance.

headspacestretch-c_zps8f362fcb.gif


Minimum shoulder bump and shooting reasonable pressure loads will make your brass last a long time. If I load and shoot Remington .223 cases and Lake City 5.56 cases with the same load in my AR15, the Remington cases will fail sooner than the Lake City cases because of the way the military cases are made. This doesn't mean the Remington brass is defective, it just means that commercial SAAMI .223 cases were not designed to be fired in fatter and longer military chambers.
 
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#30
todd said:
Would you mind expanding on this? I ask because I seem to be trimming after almost every reload. Thanks!
Click to expand...

The part of my quote you left out, is what helped me.
Lee sizing dies work the neck, and shoulder so bad, I quit using them. Body die set to .001" headspace, along with using Lee collet neck dies, really cut down on my trimming.
 
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#31
Didn't read the whole thread so this maybe covered. The paperclip trick for the guys that can't feel the low spot in the brass. I also had a hard time feeling the low spot with a paper clip the material of the clip was not stiff enough to translate the low spot back to my finger. My local gunsmith helped to get the feel I was looking for by making me a feeler(paperclip) out of spring steel rod of about the same size as a paperclip with the stiffer rod I can easily feel the rod drop down and come up out of the groove in the brass now. for the guys with the paperclip not working may want to try this.
 
#32
the Remington cases will fail sooner than the Lake City cases because of the way the military cases are made. This doesn't mean the Remington brass is defective, it just means that commercial SAAMI .223 cases were not designed to be fired in fatter and longer military chambers.
Click to expand...

I certainly agree with this, my comment was more in line with all things being equal.

Assuming the same chamber length, non military, my assumption has always been LC brass will far out-last the Remington brass which is basically what you concluded.

My curiosity lies in how various brass performs when all things are equal. A test I simply would never have time to do properly... and I am not sure all things could be considered equal when you have the pressure differences between cases with larger/smaller capacity and identical charge weights.. It would make a test where identical pressure is so very difficult to create across all manufactures. That is where empirical observation and some basic physics forms the basis of the end opinion for many.

Great post, this one qualifies as a sticky.
 
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