I'm fairly new to NV and thermal technology. I am wondering if NV and thermal are usually used in a "one or the other" type of way or if its more ideal to have a thermal scanner and a separate NV sight. Like to spot using the thermal then change to NV on the rifle if there is something interesting. Of course that could be pricey setup and maybe just the thermal sight is plenty good enough. My use would be night varmints in the woods or edge of fields. Without much walking, just observe and shoot from a stand.
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Night Vision simple question nv + thermal
- Thread starter tacotim
- Start date
Sounds like thermal would suit your needs the best. Easier to spot prey with thermal, dont have to stare at shades of green for hours. I have used both extensively and prefer thermal for looking for and shooting at warm blooded things. Make sure you know your state laws.
I've been out with plenty of people that just use thermal scope on rifle ... self included. Having a PVS-14 on your head is useful for scanning the terrain while moving, especially if on unfamiliar, rough ground, especially if very little ambient light present.
Thermal to spot and NV to shoot is really ideal. Reason being is you pick up far more scanning with thermal than you ever will with NV and then shooting with NV allows to to ID far better than you ever can with thermal.
If you get a badass 640 thermal however and your engagements are close (inside of 100 yards) then you can ID just fine 90% with thermal even on pretty humid nights even for varmints.
A lot of people will say you can ID much further with thermal based on movement and that works some times but it’s not 100%. I’ve miss ID’d plenty with thermal and relatively reasonable ranges. I even miss ID’d a groundhog at only about 80 yards once, I assumed it was a possum based on size and because when do you see a groundhog or other similar size/shape critters at night and because of the vegetation I knew I couldn’t see it’s tail, I was shooting with a thermal clip on too so same story... smoked it and sure enough it was a groundhog out in the middle of the night, probably going to another den to get some ass or something.
Another time I watched what was a small herd of 5 deer come out out a wood line and across a road in a valley moving very fast and erratically much like a pack of coyotes. They bedded down in a field about 600-700 yards out (coyotes lay down too) where I watched them for a good 15 mins with both thermal monocular and clip on and one would get up and walk around the others and then lay back down. Again very unusual behavior for deer and more like coyotes. I contemplated sending rounds and almost did, they then started making their way towards me and sure enough it was deer.
My point is that animals are wild creatures and you can’t always depend on their movement to ID them and the smaller you’re talking the harder it’s going to be to ID with thermal.
If you get a badass 640 thermal however and your engagements are close (inside of 100 yards) then you can ID just fine 90% with thermal even on pretty humid nights even for varmints.
A lot of people will say you can ID much further with thermal based on movement and that works some times but it’s not 100%. I’ve miss ID’d plenty with thermal and relatively reasonable ranges. I even miss ID’d a groundhog at only about 80 yards once, I assumed it was a possum based on size and because when do you see a groundhog or other similar size/shape critters at night and because of the vegetation I knew I couldn’t see it’s tail, I was shooting with a thermal clip on too so same story... smoked it and sure enough it was a groundhog out in the middle of the night, probably going to another den to get some ass or something.
Another time I watched what was a small herd of 5 deer come out out a wood line and across a road in a valley moving very fast and erratically much like a pack of coyotes. They bedded down in a field about 600-700 yards out (coyotes lay down too) where I watched them for a good 15 mins with both thermal monocular and clip on and one would get up and walk around the others and then lay back down. Again very unusual behavior for deer and more like coyotes. I contemplated sending rounds and almost did, they then started making their way towards me and sure enough it was deer.
My point is that animals are wild creatures and you can’t always depend on their movement to ID them and the smaller you’re talking the harder it’s going to be to ID with thermal.
I don't disagree thermal is more difficult. But I don't look to thermal to fix itself. I look to more practice and more experience.
By going out night after night after night ... year after year after year ... my ability to PID with thermal has improved and improved and improved. And if in doubt I keep watching.
Lots of trees around me. Many of my spots are of critters in woods. And I can only see fragments of them. Could be either a deer or even one of my cows. Both are NO SHOOT. And not so easy to tell deer from yotes in such cases. By movement or otherwise. So I keep watching until I am sure. But NV could not even see those critters back in the woods period too many shadows. And I can't even start to ID a critter I can't even see. Hence I use thermal 97% of the time.
And the calving cows are usually near the woods, so yotes can approach thru the woods, hence critter to watch that approach vector. But when they cross the fence, that is a big clue. Deer usually go over, yotes usually go thru. And yotes movements after coming thru fence are usually different and yote shapes are usually different, etc. But again, I can't see these critters at all with NV, too much vegetation.
By going out night after night after night ... year after year after year ... my ability to PID with thermal has improved and improved and improved. And if in doubt I keep watching.
Lots of trees around me. Many of my spots are of critters in woods. And I can only see fragments of them. Could be either a deer or even one of my cows. Both are NO SHOOT. And not so easy to tell deer from yotes in such cases. By movement or otherwise. So I keep watching until I am sure. But NV could not even see those critters back in the woods period too many shadows. And I can't even start to ID a critter I can't even see. Hence I use thermal 97% of the time.
And the calving cows are usually near the woods, so yotes can approach thru the woods, hence critter to watch that approach vector. But when they cross the fence, that is a big clue. Deer usually go over, yotes usually go thru. And yotes movements after coming thru fence are usually different and yote shapes are usually different, etc. But again, I can't see these critters at all with NV, too much vegetation.
Thanks. This is great info. I am looking forward to seeing critters. One thing I was thinking about for NV, was how much illumination would be effective in the woods with the leaves on? If any? I had an ATN 4k pro for a few months. Thats a digital unit, my first attempt at NV. It really needed strong illumination to work, but then that was only feasible out in the open. Nearby things were too bright in the woods with the light blasting like that. That got me thinking that a purely passive NV could be the best for preserving depth. For example looking at something through the trees. But again I have never used any of the nicer units, maybe they are better at taking advantage of illumination.
The simple answer is to get both if you're serious and have the budget. However if your budget can only afford one...go thermal. There is absolutely no contest in detection and recognition.
I used NV for over 20 years in the Corps, and while a PVS-14 (or better) is superror for movement ... especially in unfamiliar terrain... there is no way that you are picking up critters at 1K plus yards with them, or quickly ID'ing specific animals on the move in shadows etc...
As a rancher, I only need thermal on my land. I know where the holes are. However as a hog hunter on my friend's properties, I have actually walked face-first into a barb-wire fence while putting a stalk on a boar in a no-illumination situation. Not my finest moment, but I killed his problem hog a few minutes later.
To argue with a perspective mentioned above, a decent 320 unit will allow you to identify the difference between deer, hog, cow, coyote, and calf at a solid 500 yards or better. It might take a little practice, but the first time you're out hunting EVERYTHING looks like a hog. I have an 1100 yard and 800 yard pasture, and I have no problem figuring out what I'm looking at as I enter them. THE BIGGEST problem is identifying a lone boar that is near a group of young calves, but it is not hard within 250 yards.
That keeps initial cost to between $3-4K.
Good luck.
I used NV for over 20 years in the Corps, and while a PVS-14 (or better) is superror for movement ... especially in unfamiliar terrain... there is no way that you are picking up critters at 1K plus yards with them, or quickly ID'ing specific animals on the move in shadows etc...
As a rancher, I only need thermal on my land. I know where the holes are. However as a hog hunter on my friend's properties, I have actually walked face-first into a barb-wire fence while putting a stalk on a boar in a no-illumination situation. Not my finest moment, but I killed his problem hog a few minutes later.
To argue with a perspective mentioned above, a decent 320 unit will allow you to identify the difference between deer, hog, cow, coyote, and calf at a solid 500 yards or better. It might take a little practice, but the first time you're out hunting EVERYTHING looks like a hog. I have an 1100 yard and 800 yard pasture, and I have no problem figuring out what I'm looking at as I enter them. THE BIGGEST problem is identifying a lone boar that is near a group of young calves, but it is not hard within 250 yards.
That keeps initial cost to between $3-4K.
Good luck.
Some great info here....I have no experience with thermal, but theres been times I can hear coyotes out back behind my house and just cant spot them with my Gen 3 PVS14.
Thought I would follow up to close out this thread. There was lots of good advice here, which I didn't take 
, and ended up getting a drone with a thermal camera. My thinking was I can scan a big area really quick for spotting then move closer with a NV device on the rifle. This was alot of fun for awhile but there were some big problems and it was kind of an error. I'll start with the good. The drone was a DJI marketed as search and rescue. It has a FLIR and visual 4k camera that the software can combine for an image on your controller / phone. I thought that was really nice, being able to integrate the cameras in the daytime. Also, its steady in wind and flys for around 1/2 hour as high as 350-400 ft. In a way its really a tremendous flight time. It was able to scan some key fields and wooded spots spread over 400 acres in about 10-15 mins, so not much worry about the battery if I knew where I was going. Also it could detect coyote-size or larger things clearly in fields and often in the woods. Not resolve them clearly, just detect. I did think it was hard to navigate with only the thermal, especially in the winter when the leaves were off and there are trees to watch out for during take off and landing. To compound that problem, the auto-avoidance features didn't seem to work very well or maybe not at all at night. Long story short, it took a hard crash with a tree and there is one less drone in the world. In the future I won't be buying any more expensive flying cameras. That said I did like the thermal technology alot and will probably get something else thermal.
*All of the usual caveats apply. Drones not legal for game hunting, must be line of site with the pilot, etc, etc.
, and ended up getting a drone with a thermal camera. My thinking was I can scan a big area really quick for spotting then move closer with a NV device on the rifle. This was alot of fun for awhile but there were some big problems and it was kind of an error. I'll start with the good. The drone was a DJI marketed as search and rescue. It has a FLIR and visual 4k camera that the software can combine for an image on your controller / phone. I thought that was really nice, being able to integrate the cameras in the daytime. Also, its steady in wind and flys for around 1/2 hour as high as 350-400 ft. In a way its really a tremendous flight time. It was able to scan some key fields and wooded spots spread over 400 acres in about 10-15 mins, so not much worry about the battery if I knew where I was going. Also it could detect coyote-size or larger things clearly in fields and often in the woods. Not resolve them clearly, just detect. I did think it was hard to navigate with only the thermal, especially in the winter when the leaves were off and there are trees to watch out for during take off and landing. To compound that problem, the auto-avoidance features didn't seem to work very well or maybe not at all at night. Long story short, it took a hard crash with a tree and there is one less drone in the world. In the future I won't be buying any more expensive flying cameras. That said I did like the thermal technology alot and will probably get something else thermal.*All of the usual caveats apply. Drones not legal for game hunting, must be line of site with the pilot, etc, etc.
You can add a COTI clip on thermal imager to your current NV and have a fusion set up. Still have the advantages of the I2 for navigation, etc. and have the heat detection of the thermal in an overlay.
The thermal camera is very likely salvageable from your wrecked drone. Don't give up hope on it yet.
