Sizing Wax question

[186thFCo]

Stupid question for you guys. I know with something like Hornady One Shot and other spray type lubes you are supposed to get some of the lube in the neck but is that the same for Imperial sizing wax? I'm curious to know if the wax will mess with the powder ignition, haven't been able to find anything online saying one way or the other. I know I could just clean the brass again if I was that worried about it, but I really don't want to add a second cleaning step if I don't have too.

Thanks

 

[918v]

Wax in the neck will mess up the accuracy. What you want in the neck is graphite.

 

[Rocketmandb]

For the more "waxy" (not a word) lubes I wouldn't put inside the neck because it's difficult to get consistent application. After a fair amount of testing, I am a firm believer in neck lube. However, just use one that's easier and more consistent to apply. I'm currently using Neolube #2 and dipping the case necks into it.

 

[Baron23]

Stupid question for you guys. I know with something like Hornady One Shot and other spray type lubes you are supposed to get some of the lube in the neck but is that the same for Imperial sizing wax? I'm curious to know if the wax will mess with the powder ignition, haven't been able to find anything online saying one way or the other. I know I could just clean the brass again if I was that worried about it, but I really don't want to add a second cleaning step if I don't have too.

Thanks

Are you asking about lube when full length sizing with an expansion ball (or mandrel) or lube when seating a bullet.

I ask because after sizing my brass goes back in the tumbler to clean the lube off the cases. And I do use OneShot and I do angle the spray to get some into the necks.

After completing case prep and prior to dropping powder load/seating bullet, I lube the inside of the necks with graphite...I just use Imperial graphite neck lube...seems to work pretty well.

 

[Rocketmandb]

After completing case prep and prior to dropping powder load/seating bullet, I lube the inside of the necks with graphite...I just use Imperial graphite neck lube...seems to work pretty well.

You should try Neolube using the dip method of application. I find it to be quicker, cleaner (believe it or not), and it provides better results as measured on the AMP Press. It is more expensive and you have to allow for dry time, but so far I'm finding the other advantages outweigh those couple disadvantages.

 

[Baron23]

You should try Neolube using the dip method of application. I find it to be quicker, cleaner (believe it or not), and it provides better results as measured on the AMP Press. It is more expensive and you have to allow for dry time, but so far I'm finding the other advantages outweigh those couple disadvantages.

Thanks...added it to my Amazon cart but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

So, after case prep, you dip the necks in this liquid and let it dry? Is that right?

And, I see they tout that it blackens metal so if you dipped the neck, do you then wipe the outside of the neck down with a paper towel or something?

Would it be easier to apply to the inside of the necks with a q-tip?

Thanks

 

[186thFCo]

Are you asking about lube when full length sizing with an expansion ball (or mandrel) or lube when seating a bullet.

I ask because after sizing my brass goes back in the tumbler to clean the lube off the cases. And I do use OneShot and I do angle the spray to get some into the necks.

After completing case prep and prior to dropping powder load/seating bullet, I lube the inside of the necks with graphite...I just use Imperial graphite neck lube...seems to work pretty well.

FL sizing, I have a Redding bushing style die with the expander ball.

It should be noted that I'm not putting the imperial case wax directly into the case neck, I will inevitably get a little around the opening which may or may not get into the case neck via the expander ball being shoved through.

Also, normally all I do is wipe that case off with a drying rag (old shirt) after FL resizing. After reading some of the responses I'm guess best practice is to run the brass through another cycle of dry tumbling after sizing to get the residual lubricant cleaned off, so I'll start doing that.

 

[Baron23]

After reading some of the responses I'm guess best practice is to run the brass through another cycle of dry tumbling after sizing to get the residual lubricant cleaned off, so I'll start doing that.

Yeah, if you do that then no worries about sizing lube left in the necks, right?

Best of luck. Cheers

 

[Dogtown]

I'll throw in more support on neolube.

It's been a lot cleaner and easier to use than dry neck lube and is giving me really consistent seating force. Nowadays for precision loads, I fill my loading block with sized and trimmed cases, then I use a Q-Tip to coat the inside of the necks (don't over/under do it - takes a bit of practice) and let them dry while I prime the brass (or do something else for 10 minutes). Then I run them through the mandrel (hey, they're already lubed!) and chamfer/debur - ready to go.

 

[186thFCo]

Speaking of getting residue inside you brass case. What is up with people adding things like car wax to their dry media? How does that not leave residue behind that would effect powder burn?

Here I am worried about a tiny bit of imperial wax getting left behind in my case necks, but then there seems to be quite a few people adding car wax in while tumbling to make the brass shinier.

Even though I have been reloading for a couple of years now I feels like I don't know a thing and I'm doing everything all wrong...lol FML

 

[kthomas]

Neolube looks interesting. I currently don't lube necks, but I think I may dabble in it after seeing some of @Rocketmandb's threads with his AMP press.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Thanks...added it to my Amazon cart but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

Note that you can get larger quantities direct from the manufacturer at lower per-ounce price (by a lot).

So, after case prep, you dip the necks in this liquid and let it dry? Is that right?

I keep a little in one of those little jewelry cleaning "jars" that is roughly the same depth as the neck is long. This allows me to simply dip the case neck until it's bottomed out, pull it out, wipe it off with a rag, then put it in a tray to dry - I let it sit for an hour, which seems to be more than enough as it's graphite in an alcohol solution, so it dries quickly.

And, I see they tout that it blackens metal so if you dipped the neck, do you then wipe the outside of the neck down with a paper towel or something?

Exactly (old t-shirt rag). You'd think this would be messier than dealing with dry graphite or moly, but it's not.

Would it be easier to apply to the inside of the necks with a q-tip?

Tried it and found:

1) It did not go on as consistently
2) It took muck longer

 

[Tokay444]

I tumble after sizing, and have no problem getting Hornady Unique inside the necks.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Neolube looks interesting. I currently don't lube necks, but I think I may dabble in it after seeing some of @Rocketmandb's threads with his AMP press.

By the way, I had mentioned to you that I was going to a private range last week to run another test of lubed necks vs. not. Unfortunately, I got only half the data I was looking for (SD impact of lube vs not) because the bench I was shooting off of was wobbly and my groups were all over the place. Before you ask, I really didn't want to shoot prone because it was in the 90s and there was nowhere to shoot prone in the shade. I'm going out again next week to try again... with a sun shade this time.

On the SD side, I had the most pronounced difference between lubed-neck SDs and non-lubed-neck SDs:

Non-lubed:

Lubed:

Here are the AMP Press plots for these (blue=lubed, green=non)

On the previous two trips I had the following data:

Trip 1:
Non-lubed:
15 shots, SD 8.4
Lubed:
15 shots, SD 6.6

Trip 2:
Non-lubed:
14 shots, SD 7.7
Lubed:
15 shots, SD 6.4

I wasn't ready to say that lubing necks has an impact on SD, but after 50+ shots of each lubed and non-lubed, I'm comfortable in saying that lube does have an impact on SDs.

Still need to play more on group size.

 

[918v]

Speaking of getting residue inside you brass case. What is up with people adding things like car wax to their dry media? How does that not leave residue behind that would effect powder burn?

I played around with nufinish but it changed bullet release and accuracy got worse. The most ideal condition for the neck is dry lubed with graphite. Bullet seating is smooth , but not too slick so accuracy is preserved.

 

[kthomas]

By the way, I had mentioned to you that I was going to a private range last week to run another test of lubed necks vs. not. Unfortunately, I got only half the data I was looking for (SD impact of lube vs not) because the bench I was shooting off of was wobbly and my groups were all over the place. Before you ask, I really didn't want to shoot prone because it was in the 90s and there was nowhere to shoot prone in the shade. I'm going out again next week to try again... with a sun shade this time.

On the SD side, I had the most pronounced difference between lubed-neck SDs and non-lubed-neck SDs:

Non-lubed:
View attachment 8419622

Lubed:
View attachment 8419623

Here are the AMP Press plots for these (blue=lubed, green=non)
View attachment 8419643


On the previous two trips I had the following data:

Trip 1:
Non-lubed:
15 shots, SD 8.4
Lubed:
15 shots, SD 6.6

Trip 2:
Non-lubed:
14 shots, SD 7.7
Lubed:
15 shots, SD 6.4

I wasn't ready to say that lubing necks has an impact on SD, but after 50+ shots of each lubed and non-lubed, I'm comfortable in saying that lube does have an impact on SDs.

Still need to play more on group size.

It sure seems like you are on to something with lubing necks. I appreciate you sharing all your info on this.

 

[Rocketmandb]

It sure seems like you are on to something with lubing necks. I appreciate you sharing all your info on this.

Multiple videos forthcoming

 

[alfack]

Maybe the lube has something to do with the neck tension of the seated bullet? If that is the case, I would also test the dry with less neck tension scenario.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Maybe the lube has something to do with the neck tension of the seated bullet? If that is the case, I would also test the dry with less neck tension scenario.

All of this plays into what I call "Effective Neck Tension", which is a combination of all the forces in play that conspire to keep the bullet in the neck during ignition. Lube lowers that effective neck tension - or looking at another way, not using lube raises it. The main thing, however, is that lube makes it more consistent.

Lowering interference fit (I won't call it neck tension ) will lower the magnitude of the variation of the force holding the bullet in place, but they will still be there.

 

[alfack]

All of this plays into what I call "Effective Neck Tension", which is a combination of all the forces in play that conspire to keep the bullet in the neck during ignition. Lube lowers that effective neck tension - or looking at another way, not using lube raises it. The main thing, however, is that lube makes it more consistent.

Lowering interference fit (I won't call it neck tension ) will lower the magnitude of the variation of the force holding the bullet in place, but they will still be there.

That's cool. I just can't help wondering if a .002 larger bushing would have a similar effect on SD.

 

[Tokay444]

Maybe the lube has something to do with the neck tension of the seated bullet? If that is the case, I would also test the dry with less neck tension scenario.

Friction more than tension.

 

[R_A_W]

I played around with nufinish but it changed bullet release and accuracy got worse.

Did you see this only when you dry tumbled in the nufinish-treated media after sizing & then seated bullets? Or did you try dry tumbling in different, untreated media?

Curious, because I started using nufinish & have noticed a new residue

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

I lube with imperial die wax, then I resize with a full length die (expander ball removed) then clean the cases again to remove the wax. After that I use a carbide expander mandrel (no lube) and expand the case necks, then I load.

 

[tekmann2377]

Whether or not case wax inside the neck will affect your consistency depends on whether you lube every inside neck, and your post lube cleaning process.

It is possible to lube the inside neck with wax by rolling a small amount of the wax into the inside of the neck. It is not that easy to do it consistently. I have done this primarily when reloading LC 308 brass that has work-hardened for which there is significant force involved with withdrawing the expander. Yes I know annealing would be helpful here.

In terms or removal, wax (inside or out) is very easily removed by shaking the brass in a container with either acetone or brake cleaner. This will remove all traces of lube.

Neither of these observations is particularly helpful for your more-precision oriented question, and Neolube is more likely a better answer for you.

 

[Cody S]

if lubing the inside of the necks purposefully I might wonder about bullet slippage if you treat it too rough, especially in an auto loader.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

if lubing the inside of the necks purposefully I might wonder about bullet slippage if you treat it too rough, especially in an auto loader.

Pretty easy to test. And if bullets start slipping, you can increase interference fit. You'll get no slippage and still benefit from lube in neck.

 

[Cody S]

I'd like to see someone test it ran real hard in a bolt then an auto just to see if it can be made to hold. I'm all for lower SD tbh. my next load dev I'll include it in, can't just switch now and expect perfect results for the bench match in 2 weeks

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I'd like to see someone test it ran real hard in a bolt then an auto just to see if it can be made to hold. I'm all for lower SD tbh. my next load dev I'll include it in, can't just switch now and expect perfect results for the bench match in 2 weeks

I do it all the time. I'll hold the round with the tip of the bullet against a wood surface. Then I'll take the palm of the other hand and hit the back of the round and see how easily it moves. With gas gun, I'll mark the bullet with thing sharpie where it meets neck and cycle it through. Check for movement. Then change the interference if needed.

This isn't anything new.

 

[Cody S]

how much neck tension would you recommend if trying this for a future barrel load dev? was thinking 3 ish thou. I'm hoping to save a few hundred dollars in trial and error