SK vs Lapua ammo lube

[Mr. Wolf]

From various threads in this forum, it appears that SK and Lapua ammo lube may be the same slippery frog snot.

However, when I was testing ammo on the Cz457 and Bergara b14r, I noticed something strange.
I used SK Std + and SK Rifle Match as the "seasoning" rounds before switching to Lapua when shooting for groups.

I noticed that there were POI shifts for the first 2 or 3 rounds on both rifles when switching from SK to Lapua.
This was the same when my son saddled up to shoot groups. No noticeable carbon ring on bore scope and no cooling period between the different ammo shots.

My questions:
1. Are the lube same for both ammo? They feel similar and both are from the Nammo manufacturing group and both made in Germany (their website says that Lapua rimfire ammo are made in Schonebeck, GE). Could they be using slightly different lube formulations?
2. Could other factors such as the bullet shape, crimp, or the length of brass affect the first few shots of a string when switching ammo? (The SK ammo is 1 year older than the Lapua, but both were stored in a cool humidity controlled area)
3. Anyone else experience anything similar when shooting SK and Lapua?

pfffft, here I thought I could save a few shekels by seasoning with the cheaper SK before shooting the ever shrinking stash of lot tested Lapua...

Thanks for you comments/help in advance.
Life's hard, but it's harder when I am a poor.

YMMV, happy shooting

 

[grauhanen]

The lube is the same or so very nearly the same that they season the barrel similarly. A lot of shooters use SK to season for Lapua because the SK is relatively inexpensive. POI differences between a few rounds are often the result of the inevitable variation between individual rounds -- unless of course they are all usually going into the exact same hole.

 

[striped1]

From various threads in this forum, it appears that SK and Lapua ammo lube may be the same slippery frog snot.

However, when I was testing ammo on the Cz457 and Bergara b14r, I noticed something strange.
I used SK Std + and SK Rifle Match as the "seasoning" rounds before switching to Lapua when shooting for groups.

I noticed that there were POI shifts for the first 2 or 3 rounds on both rifles when switching from SK to Lapua.
This was the same when my son saddled up to shoot groups. No noticeable carbon ring on bore scope and no cooling period between the different ammo shots.

My questions:
1. Are the lube same for both ammo? They feel similar and both are from the Nammo manufacturing group and both made in Germany (their website says that Lapua rimfire ammo are made in Schonebeck, GE). Could they be using slightly different lube formulations?
2. Could other factors such as the bullet shape, crimp, or the length of brass affect the first few shots of a string when switching ammo? (The SK ammo is 1 year older than the Lapua, but both were stored in a cool humidity controlled area)
3. Anyone else experience anything similar when shooting SK and Lapua?

pfffft, here I thought I could save a few shekels by seasoning with the cheaper SK before shooting the ever shrinking stash of lot tested Lapua...

Thanks for you comments/help in advance.
Life's hard, but it's harder when I am a poor.

YMMV, happy shooting

I shoot Standard + as my match ammo in my B14R. It takes 2 "sighters" for my barrel to shoot POA / POI even if it cools for only a bit. The first shot is 1 mil right and .5M mil low cold bore at 50 yards. The second shot is 1/2 that. The third is exactly where it should be. It has been this way for nearly 2K rounds.

 

[Shayne Ward]

I shoot Standard + as my match ammo in my B14R. It takes 2 "sighters" for my barrel to shoot POA / POI even if it cools for only a bit. The first shot is 1 mil right and .5M mil low cold bore at 50 yards. The second shot is 1/2 that. The third is exactly where it should be. It has been this way for nearly 2K rounds.

That rifle should be back at Bergara until they fix it

 

[Mr. Wolf]

I shoot Standard + as my match ammo in my B14R. It takes 2 "sighters" for my barrel to shoot POA / POI even if it cools for only a bit. The first shot is 1 mil right and .5M mil low cold bore at 50 yards. The second shot is 1/2 that. The third is exactly where it should be. It has been this way for nearly 2K rounds.

Interesting. Have you considered checking your action torque settings or scope base/ring torque?
It could also be a carbon ring. Easy things to check before spending $50 mailing it in.

I've not noticed a significant shift when either Cz or Bergara shoot the same ammo, i.e. no cold bore shift.
I'll pay closer attention next time and report back.

YMMV, happy shooting.

 

[MajorD]

I shoot Standard + as my match ammo in my B14R. It takes 2 "sighters" for my barrel to shoot POA / POI even if it cools for only a bit. The first shot is 1 mil right and .5M mil low cold bore at 50 yards. The second shot is 1/2 that. The third is exactly where it should be. It has been this way for nearly 2K rounds.

My cheap savage shows a similar but possibly less extreme phenomenon about 1/2” high and left for first shot cold bore, then settles back to center. Not a deal breaker in a rifle that costs $250. Just about any rifle can display similar behavior I imagine

 

[Dstoenner]

I shoot Standard + as my match ammo in my B14R. It takes 2 "sighters" for my barrel to shoot POA / POI even if it cools for only a bit. The first shot is 1 mil right and .5M mil low cold bore at 50 yards. The second shot is 1/2 that. The third is exactly where it should be. It has been this way for nearly 2K rounds.

There was a long thread on cold bore being different on the Rimfire Central forum a few years back. The general opinion was that as the barrel cooled it got condensation in it that changed the fouling. After 1 or 2 rounds everything was back to normal. All of our accuracy is driven by harmonics. The condensation changed the harmonics.

David

 

[justin amateur]

H2O is one of the by-products of powder/primer combustion.
As the pressure in the barrel spikes, then decreases rapidly,
the water vapor produced condenses on the particulates in the bore.
This creates clumps of wet burn residue, or "mud".
Easy to prove.
Fire a shot, immediately pull a dry patch though the bore.
What comes out is wet burn residue. (mud)

Will that change harmonics? I don't know.
Will it change the coefficient of friction? Yes.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

When I had my Vudoo lot-tested three years ago, I asked Devan Stricker at the Arizona Lapua / Capstone test facility to confirm that all the Lapua/SK brands use the same lube. Here is his response (italics mine):

"All of Lapua’s lubricants are the same with the exception of the Biathlon Xtreme, as it is a dry lubricant.​

​

Also, to my understanding SK’s lubricant is exactly the same as well, given that they are our sister company."​

---
So, can one switch SK/Lapua labels without a POI shift? In my experience, it depends on the rifle.

I shoot a little gallery-style match every month with target racks at 50, 100, and 150 yards. I don't like to use my good Center-X stash on the 50-yard targets, so I verified that, with my Vudoo, I could use my remaining "cheap" ammo (2018-vintage Wolf Match Target / rebranded SK Standard+) on the 50-yard targets and go straight to Center-X with no POI shift for the 100/150 yard targets.

That's with my Vudoo, with its 19" Ace / Kukri barrel.

My much newer RimX, with 22" Shilen / Heavy Varmint barrel, sometimes - not always - shows a very slight POI shift for a round or two after a label change. BUT - it's also become apparent that the Shilen barrel, with a KSS tuner mounted, is a far more particular barrel than the Ace. The Shilen, properly tuned with my lot of Center-X, is marginally more accurate than the Ace barrel (no tuner) on the Vudoo. But the Vudoo/Ace will shoot multiple labels of Lapua/SK ammo decently, while the RimX/Shilen will not - in fact, the old Wolf Match Target/rebranded Std+ scatters into two-inch-plus groups at 50 yards! Of course, the tuner on the Shilen introduces a huge difference between the two barrels; once upon a time I tried a Harrell tuner on the Vudoo with the same lot-tested Center-X and burning nearly two boxes of ammo to "tune the tuner" made no discernible improvement.

Yay .22 rimfire.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

When I had my Vudoo lot-tested three years ago, I asked Devan Stricker at the Arizona Lapua / Capstone test facility to confirm that all the Lapua/SK brands use the same lube. Here is his response (italics mine):

"All of Lapua’s lubricants are the same with the exception of the Biathlon Xtreme, as it is a dry lubricant.​

​

Also, to my understanding SK’s lubricant is exactly the same as well, given that they are our sister company."​

---
So, can one switch SK/Lapua labels without a POI shift? In my experience, it depends on the rifle.

I shoot a little gallery-style match every month with target racks at 50, 100, and 150 yards. I don't like to use my good Center-X stash on the 50-yard targets, so I verified that, with my Vudoo, I could use my remaining "cheap" ammo (2018-vintage Wolf Match Target / rebranded SK Standard+) on the 50-yard targets and go straight to Center-X with no POI shift for the 100/150 yard targets.

That's with my Vudoo, with its 19" Ace / Kukri barrel.

My much newer RimX, with 22" Shilen / Heavy Varmint barrel, sometimes - not always - shows a very slight POI shift for a round or two after a label change. BUT - it's also become apparent that the Shilen barrel, with a KSS tuner mounted, is a far more particular barrel than the Ace. The Shilen, properly tuned with my lot of Center-X, is marginally more accurate than the Ace barrel (no tuner) on the Vudoo. But the Vudoo/Ace will shoot multiple labels of Lapua/SK ammo decently, while the RimX/Shilen will not - in fact, the old Wolf Match Target/rebranded Std+ scatters into two-inch-plus groups at 50 yards! Of course, the tuner on the Shilen introduces a huge difference between the two barrels; once upon a time I tried a Harrell tuner on the Vudoo with the same lot-tested Center-X and burning nearly two boxes of ammo to "tune the tuner" made no discernible improvement.

Yay .22 rimfire.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.
The POI change happens whether I let the barrel cool or not, as in even if I load the next magazine and start shooting the Center X. @ 50 yds, the SK rifle match is mid .3 consistently and the center x is low .3 after the first group, and the B14r shoots CCI SV very well (mid .4 and the only ammo tried that doesn't eject an unfired cartridge) so I don't think that it's from a picky barrel preference.

I wonder if my older ammo's lube degrade or if they changed their lube formulation between the years of manufacture.

Now I Know why they named their rifle Vudoo...dark arts and black magic this rimfire business.

YMMV, happy shooting.

 

[acudaowner]

mmm wax and hag fish slime yea