Fieldcraft Sleep system

Lunar95

Lunar95

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 9, 2019
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#1
Need some input on my current sleep system.

Currently I am in the deep south so cold weather isnt very common. But id like for the system to be adaptable for trips to father north.

Currently im running a treeline 32 degree bag from seatosummit. It take ups about 4ish liters of space at about 2.2lbs with a snug pack bivi to keep the bag dry. I also have a heavy duty reflective tarp.

Looking back on it Im guessing i should have just spent the money and got the super small seatosummit bags but that is besides the point.

Do i need a ground pad with this setup? So far when using this system iv been lucky enough to not have to sleep directly on the ground outside. I have had some sort of shelter to sleep in.

I have ALWAYS struggled with getting a decent sleep/shelter system and have wasted a ton of money on it. So im asking around for systems people have found to work well so i can make one finale buy once cry once type of purchase and just be done with it.

Weight isnt to much of a problem but size is currently. Thanks!
 
#2
Check out the army modular sleep system. When I was in it was compromised of a gore Tex bivy sack, patrol sack, cold weather sack, and a stuff sack to hold it all. Grab a used one for cheap at a army surplus.. or you can find one new if ya want to pay more to know who all has been inside it. I’ve been out since 2006 and I still use a army issue sleep system.
 
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#3
Blutroop said:
Check out the army modular sleep system. When I was in it was compromised of a gore Tex bivy sack, patrol sack, cold weather sack, and a stuff sack to hold it all. Grab a used one for cheap at a army surplus.. or you can find one new if ya want to pay more to know who all has been inside it. I’ve been out since 2006 and I still use a army issue sleep system.
Click to expand...
Same here.

Gore-tex bag, black bag, green bag, compression bag.

And fluffy socks ????
 
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#5
I use the same Army sleep system setup in the north for hammock camping in the snow.

I don't have much suggestion for smaller except for a woobie and a sleeping mat.
 
#6
I own the standard issue MSS and used a bit for field work, but we always had cots but yeah the size is the biggest drawback with the MSS also still an issue with ground pad, as iv never had to sue it on the ground im not sure how necessary a ground pad is. But i dont plan on using the MSS.
 
#7
Thinking about it I'm kind of in the same boat. I need to figure out something smaller myself. I usually don't do much backpacking aside from out of a Canoe or something like that. I have taken just the inner bag out stuffed it in a small compression sack and left the rest of the sleep system at home when it was nicer, but I could use something less bulky and more comfortable
 
#8
In cold weather, you'll need some sort of ground mat or pad. Think about it for a minute... your weight is compressing the insulation to almost nothing, and once compressed or collapsed, it offers little if any insulation value. Once that happens, you get thermal bridging that transfers the cold directly to your body. A Thermarest type pad, which has a foam core, and is also inflatable works pretty well getting you off of the cold ground, and providing some insulation. You can also adjust the inflation to suit your comfort level. The other type of pad is just foam, I would recommend getting a high density type foam for the added insulation factor.

One recommendation for any kind of pad, try to get one with a rough surface so your sleeping bag doesn't slide around on top of it, where you'll end up eventually sliding off of it in the middle of the night.

One sleeping bag system that incorporates the pad into the bottom of the sleeping bag is Big Agnes Products, or BAP. They are made locally in Colorado. No Chinese slave labor product crap.
 
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#9
Alpine 338 said:
In cold weather, you'll need some sort of ground mat or pad. Think about it for a minute... your weight is compressing the insulation to almost nothing, and once compressed or collapsed, it offers little if any insulation value. Once that happens, you get thermal bridging that transfers the cold directly to your body. A Thermarest type pad, which has a foam core, and is also inflatable works pretty well getting you off of the cold ground, and providing some insulation. You can also adjust the inflation to suit your comfort level. The other type of pad is just foam, I would recommend getting a high density type foam for the added insulation factor.

One recommendation for any kind of pad, try to get one with a rough surface so your sleeping bag doesn't slide around on top of it, where you'll end up eventually sliding off of it in the middle of the night.

One sleeping bag system that incorporates the pad into the bottom of the sleeping bag is Big Agnes Products, or BAP. They are made locally in Colorado. No Chinese slave labor product crap.
Click to expand...

My bag doesn't have any insulation on the bottom. Designed to be used in conjunction with a thermal mat like you explain. It really is a better system as it forces you to deal with what you described proactively rather than lull you into believing you'll be fine just sleeping on the ground.
 
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#11
now that you mention it I do remember sometimes having a “pussy pad” as we called em. I just like army gear because it’s designed to meet basic needs well. No thrills but does the job.
 
#14
I've slept six straight nights in a military cold weather sleeping bag, on top of the OD green foam pad, on top of the snow (actually added pine bows as some added cusion and insulation), and with a nylon poncho made into a tent over me. The system does work well.
 
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#15
Jefe's Dope said:
My bag doesn't have any insulation on the bottom. Designed to be used in conjunction with a thermal mat like you explain. It really is a better system as it forces you to deal with what you described proactively rather than lull you into believing you'll be fine just sleeping on the ground.
Click to expand...
Honestly, that sounds like psychobabble bullshit.

Having done nights in single digits at 20+ mph wind, using the MSS as-issued, AND wearing polypro, I can definitively state that while my Thermarest is good to have, it sure AF would not be enough alone.
 
#16
Check out Wiggy’s in Grand Junction, CO. I have used the Wiggy’s system in Arctic survival school, mil service as well as on all my hunts here in AK. Marc @Enough Said runs the Wiggy’s shop up here in Alaska.

Wiggy's – The World's BEST Sleeping Bags, Outdoor Gear & Clothing

Manufacturer of the finest sleeping bags and outdoor gear in the world. Nothing keeps you you warm & dry in cold, wet conditions like Wiggy's!
www.wiggys.com www.wiggys.com
 
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#19
Jefe's Dope said:
Ok bro. You got this. (y)
Click to expand...
Thanks, brah.

You could, uh, further support your position with more evidence than I can read in ad literature....

I am of the opinion that my equipment needs to be as versatile as possible. A "bag" that is more a blanket (which is what you have), that requires SPECIFIC planning and timing of the "outing" on which it is to be used... well, that's just not very goddamn realistic, to me.

What say you about an instance where said bag might need to be used to keep you alive when you didn't mean to go "camping"? One where you might not have brought along your little bed. (nothing against little beds..I love mine)

-Nate
 
#22
natdscott said:
Thanks, brah.

You could, uh, further support your position with more evidence than I can read in ad literature....

I am of the opinion that my equipment needs to be as versatile as possible. A "bag" that is more a blanket (which is what you have), that requires SPECIFIC planning and timing of the "outing" on which it is to be used... well, that's just not very goddamn realistic, to me.

What say you about an instance where said bag might need to be used to keep you alive when you didn't mean to go "camping"? One where you might not have brought along your little bed. (nothing against little beds..I love mine)

-Nate
Click to expand...
Romeo458 said:
How about you to just whip it out and measure than we can get on with it. ?
Click to expand...

No need. I concede. He's king dick. ?
 
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#24
on top of the snow (actually added pine bows as some added cusion and insulation),
Click to expand...

I was hoping someone would address this option. While having a "pad" would be an added bonus, if the area allows use of earthly elements to break your ground contact you need to use them. Plenty of survival training will guide people to use pine bows, or other elements to make a bedding base.

Now if you can't use the natural elements then getting as best/lightest pad or cushion you can fit into your gear is going to be a good investment.

Using quality undergarments in whatever textile you want can add to your comfort. You don't need the ol' brown poly-pros, but they may give you the best comfort.
Field testing will tell you what works best. Good luck!!
 
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#26
If I'm basing myself for a week or so in the north country, I like a floor less teepee with one of them ultralight Ti stove/vents.

I've also built myself a basic snow cave on occasion.

I use evergreen boughs, a mat, and a Western Mountaineering down blanket in either shelter.
 
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#27
And for the pioneers on modern tipis and lightweight stoves, check out Kifaru: https://store.kifaru.net/shelters-c5.aspx

But whether you're into tipis or not, the Kifaru Slick Bag is the schizzle: https://store.kifaru.net/sleep-system-c6.aspx

It's roomy enough to sleep in with your boots on, if you really want to do that.

The Climashield APEX insulation fill means you can get in wearing wet clothes, and they dry out inside the bag.

The center zip has a baffle behind it, so you don't loose heat.

And the zipper is designed so that you can simply rip it open if you need to get out fast. It's also got a three-way zipper, so you can have the upper and lower portions zipped up, but have your hands free/outside in the middle portion of the bag. This allows for using phones/GPS/comms while still toasty, or even just to roll over and piss straight out of onto the ground if you're running a tipi.

I liked mine so much for hunting and backpacking that I bought a second one - come winter, I don't worry with bedding that never seems to warm up - I just sleep in mine all winter long.

Being synthetic, and bombproof, the Slick Bags are pretty big, but Kifaru make a compression sack that runs the compression around the width of the bag, rather than trying to compress the whole length, as most other bags do ... this works really well.

They also do great Woobies, also with Climashield. There's a joke that men who buy them end up having them stolen by their wives/partners/girlfriends, so I ordered mine in Multicam ... guess whose peacenik wife now mysteriously likes Multicam? :rolleyes:
 
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#28
Another Kifaru fan here. Their gear is $$$, but bombproof, American made, all that. Love their packs.

In general, I like a ground pad, a very lightweight bivy to keep my bag and pad clean, even a bug - bivy to let condensation out, and then a floorless shelter like the Kifaru Supertarp.
 
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#29
You could try a Jerven bag. Light, durable and multipurpose. Doubles as a poncho and a tarp. Number of ways to wear it on the body too. It’s incredibly versatile and weighs less than 4.5lbs/2kg. Not as comfortable as a full sleep system but where weight is a concern, it’s top notch. I use the king size Thermo in winter or when I want to be comfy, and an original bag for when I want to travel extra light (it’s about 1.3lbs/600g). Not sure on availability in the US, but I’m sure you could find one somewhere if it seems like your kinda thing.

The Jerven Bag - Jerven AS

Nettsiden til Jerven AS
www.jerven.com
 
#30
Athos300 said:
You could try a Jerven bag. Light, durable and multipurpose. Doubles as a poncho and a tarp. Number of ways to wear it on the body too. It’s incredibly versatile and weighs less than 4.5lbs/2kg. Not as comfortable as a full sleep system but where weight is a concern, it’s top notch. I use the king size Thermo in winter or when I want to be comfy, and an original bag for when I want to travel extra light (it’s about 1.3lbs/600g). Not sure on availability in the US, but I’m sure you could find one somewhere if it seems like your kinda thing.

The Jerven Bag - Jerven AS

Nettsiden til Jerven AS
www.jerven.com
Click to expand...


unnamed.jpeg
 
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#31
I use the layer system, I run a cheap, light mummy bag rated for 30 f, put in one of those sleeping bag liners and depending on temp, boiled water in my canteen pushed to the foot of my bag. In the bwca, my life vest and light rain coat are under all this and I use a tarp tent so I can heat large rocks by the campfire then place them around me in this shelter. I am easily good for 0 degrees this way, and light weight, cheap to replace over the years.
 
#32
Have you considered a gathered end hammock and under quilt? Super light, very small when packed down, and no compression on the insulation during use. They are easy and CHEAP to diy from places like ripstopbytheroll.com but be warned, hammocking diy is very addictive.

Check out ShugEmery on YT for his sub-zero camping/hiking videos. It's shocking how little it takes to stay warm(and dry) in a hammock.
 
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#33
I only use a sleeping bag in the winter. For the other three seasons, I use quilts. I always take an inflatable pad (Thermarest X-Therm in the winter and a S2S Ultralight the rest of the time).

If you're not worried about really cold temperatures, I'd recommend a 20 or 30 degree quilt. The Enlightened Equipment Revelation is nice because you can open up the footbox when it's warmer and cinch everything up when it's cold.

Order a quilt that's wider than you think you'll need if you're sleeping on the ground. Down is lighter and compresses down smaller than synthetic, but synthetic is more accident proof and wet weather friendly.

My 20 degree quilt, sleeping pad, and pillow weighs approx 40 oz
 
#34
Id also suggest a kifaru slick bag.

Ive also had my wife steal my kifaru dooby(double thickness wooby). Then she suggested that I talk to the maker and get one in a queen. I about snorted my coffee. She has no clue what that would cost. 😆

It's a strange fabric, it feels cold at first, but with the climashield stuffing in it, it warms up very quickly and stays warm.

Kifaru makes a lot of great products, but you'll pay for it too.

Xdeano
 
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#35
The military sleep system is nice but definitely bulky as others have stated.

Often times in the South here, I've used the gortex cover (which you can usually find and buy separately) by itself or in conjunction with a Snugpak Merlin or similar small bag. The gortex cover for the bag itself will compress down fairly small by itself.
 
#36
Having a mat [or something between you and the ground] is very important once temps drop below even comfortable levels. It makes all the difference; the ground will suck the heat right out of you.
If looking for a lighter bag option, the SOL Escape bivy works great. I use those more than anything these days in the SE. Super compact and less than 10oz.
I've slept in just an SOL Escape bivy on a mil issued ISO mat in 27 F. It can be done. I didn't do it on purpose. I had a ranger style bag that was to go inside the bivy, but the guy I was with was under prepared and needed that extra layer.
 
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#37
I have the Army sleep system too, but I wouldn’t pack it like an 18yo can.
North face Blue Kazoo, North Face Ultra Light Bivy, shorty thermarest, is the smallest/lightest I’ve been able to put together. I don’t pack a tent. I just use the bivy.
Bow hunting Elk in the Rockies in September you just need to be able to sleep through frost. Any colder and I take a bigger bag rates for 0, but it’s twice the size. The Mystery Ranch I hunt with gets stuffed with 10 days of shit, so every pound and cu in is critical...
 
#38
AKMarty said:
Check out Wiggy’s in Grand Junction, CO. I have used the Wiggy’s system in Arctic survival school, mil service as well as on all my hunts here in AK. Marc @Enough Said runs the Wiggy’s shop up here in Alaska.

Wiggy's – The World's BEST Sleeping Bags, Outdoor Gear & Clothing

Manufacturer of the finest sleeping bags and outdoor gear in the world. Nothing keeps you you warm & dry in cold, wet conditions like Wiggy's!
www.wiggys.com www.wiggys.com
Click to expand...

+100. Wiggys is solid gear. Better than the mil mss By far. . It’s not cheap nor necessarily lightweight but it is absolutely awesome. And I can pack even the 0 degree bag into its
Compression sack and tHe weight and size is tolerable.
 
#40
reubenski said:
The Army Gore-Tex bivy bag is without equal. Ive been in the Army for 22yrs and SF for 18. I have always been about the better civilian gear. Having been on two mountain teams and all over the Alps ski-mountaineering I've carried plenty of civilian Bivys that are designed for light weight, in-extremis situations. The Army bivy bag is heavy but it is a fortress. No comparison to those light nylon civilian bivies. I have laid in an MSS for days in a pouring monsoon season with water pouring around the little shelf of earth I shoveled flat. That thing kept me dry. When the Army switched to ACU, I refused the sleep system from CIF and bought a woodland bivy bag from a surplus store and used it in conjunction with a 2lb down 0* bag. I was on an S/O team at the time and used that properly colored bag a lot. When it really matters, the Army bivy bag is the best product on the market. You can fold it and put it in the bottom of your ruck as one more waterproof layer when setting your ruck down on its ass.

Another key component is heating a Nalgene bottle of water and putting it in the footbox of your bag. Your body's core temp will be ultimately lowered by trying to keep your extremities warm. Introducing warmth into your environment that doesn't have to come from your metabolism on your extremities will keep your core from diverting warmth and ultimately keep you warmer.

I spent a year or two lightweight backpacking in the summer months. I used a Nemo Siren Quilt and the tiny-ass pad it's designed to work with. At 6'4" 230lbs I'm a little big for it but quilts are definitely bang for your buck when combined with the right pad. But in serious cold weather, regardless of the truth of your body compressing a full bag, i would not use a quilt. A serious pad goes a long way in that scenario and the complete wrap around bag still traps warm air better. Additionally, you should not wear more than a tight, skin, base layer. Those highly lofted bags need your body to warm them im.order to insulate and keep you warm. A noob mistake is to wear too many clothes in a bag and keep your body temp from adequately warming the bag.
Click to expand...

Finally, real experience.

I agree, for serious cold/wet the Army bivy is the way to go. The rest of the sleep system is overweight and bulky. For 3 season use, a lightweight down quilt like the Nemo Siren or Enlightened Equipment Revelation, paired with a lighter civilian bivy (like the OR Helium) can't be beat for size and weight. And yes, a good insulated sleeping pad absolutely makes a difference, even if it isn't very cold. Klymit makes a decent one (and they have a good discount on ExpertVoice), but there are plenty of other options out there.

I've used my EE Revelation 20F quilt down to 3F and stayed warm with a down jacket on and some fleece pants. It wasn't the most comfortable, but I wasn't suffering too much. I also used it for a month-long backpacking trip in Patagonia this past winter, as well as a few weeks hiking to Everest Base Camp in winter 2017 (granted, I didn't sleep outside, but the teahouses get cold once the yak turds are depleted). I carried my quilt, an ultralight Borah bivy and tarp, and a foam thermarest for the first 440mi of the Pacific Crest trail in May 2015 and was decently comfortable as long as it didn't rain...which was fine because I was in the desert. If I were to go back and do it again, I'd sacrifice a few oz and carry an inflatable pad, and maybe a goretex bivy. Its cool to be light, until it isn't, and all you want is a decent night's sleep after two weeks of 20+ mile days in a row.

Rambling aside, I'd use what you have and add to your gear-quiver as you see fit. Start with getting a nice sleeping pad, then go from there.
 
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#41
I'd like to put my two cents out there. I've got both the old school, 4 part MSS and the newer 3 part MSS, both issued, and have used one or the other in several different environments, although nowhere near to the extent of reubenski. Like everyone's said so far, they perform well, but the old MSS is bulky. The newer system, for those not familiar with it, consists only of a bivy sack, a 3 season bag, and a waterproof compression sack, and packs down much smaller than they old system.

Given that you're a deep south individual, like I am, for most of the time you can sleep comfortably with a 3 season bag, a bivy sack, and a woobie as a liner. Like reubenski said, stick with only a base layer. Military sleeping systems rely on your own body heat, which is something I wish I'd known when I was in the mountains wearing thick warming layers in my system and wondering why I was cold. I can't comment on any of the Kifaru or Enlightened Equipment gear as I've not gotten any experience firsthand with them.

As others have also said, a sleeping mat is very handy to have but I doubt we'll see it getting cold enough in our lifetimes to warrant anything extreme. It does help a lot with preventing heat from leeching into the ground, but I recommend the Thermarest Z-Lite as much for a comfortable sleep as for insulation. I've used both flat sleeping pads and this Z-Lite pad and it's a major improvement. Much more comfortable to sleep on.
 
#42
MSS for me, always. Going through mountains in Ranger school during the winter sub-0*F temps gives me confidence that when it counts, the MSS has got my back. I've slept in them for weeks at a time. Being a necessary evil, I attached an extra pouch on my alice pack that I can snap on or off with carabiners specifically to carry the system when needed in civilian life. Bulky, yes. Heavy? I guess that's subjective, but you will not know misery until you can't stop shaking from the cold and wet, lack sleep, are hungry, and can't get away from bugs. Getting a peaceful night's sleep and waking up dry, warm, and ready for the day makes an immense difference for your psyche. All I know is that it gets the job done. They're rated to be survivable at the temps you've seen, not comfy. So, keep that in mind. It won't be comfy at 0 or below. You'll need extra layers at those temps.

I don't use pads, and I don't carry a cot. I think they're unnecessarily bulky, and their only purpose is comfort that I can usually provide from the terrain on everything except rock. If you carry anything with a singular purpose, you should reexamine if it's worth the weight. I like carrying 2 ponchos. I use one as my base mat to keep the rest of my system clean from the ground, and often as a waterproof camo cover for equipment I need to conceal as I move away from temporarily. I use another poncho tied to a liner for cover over the system & it provides extra insulation. It also can substitute entirely for the sleep system in 60+ weather. In extreme cold, in addition to the ponchos, I'll also bring a woobie in the bag with me as well as my next morning's clothes (not worn while sleeping). Finally, I ensure that my breath is in a place that allows its humidity to escape the bag. If you're going to have to reuse the bag, you don't want to get into frost at the end of the next day, and you don't want to carry unnecessary water weight. Just an extra bit of "fieldcraft" related to this subject: I love the camelback for drinking water, and if you're able to get hot water or warm up yours, it can serve 4 functions: it adds some warmth, it makes drinking water accessible so you wake up hydrated, it prevents your water from freezing which could burst the bladder, and finally it makes for a nice pillow without any extra bulk or weight to carry. That said, don't even think about it unless you KNOW it's not going to leak. Otherwise, you're in a world of hurt.

I'm not sure that I buy the argument that wearing additional layers in the bag will prevent it from working. However, I will say that it makes it a lot easier to get out of the bag if you can put your clothing/insulation on inside of the bag in the morning. Then, when you finally come out of the bag, you're trading layers (clothes on, bag off). Plus, the struggle of of getting the clothes on in a tight space probably warmed you up a bit too, lol.

The advice I see here that I'm taking with me is to try to improve my hammock game. They're obviously super light, very compact, and in trees and lots of roots, rocks or flowing rainwater, they're probably the way to go.
 
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#43
Has anyone used the original MSS and the Improved MSS

is there a real difference between the 2

@reubenski @Praetorian_6 im guessing the switch to digital camo is also when they switched from the original MSS

i was going to pick one up for this years late season hunt before corona virus shot that plan to shit

if there's a diff ill grab the better one

weight and size aren't a concern for me

thanks
 
#46
brianf said:
Has anyone used the original MSS and the Improved MSS

is there a real difference between the 2

thanks
Click to expand...

As far as insulation/warmth, they're 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other. The biggest functional difference to me is the zipper on the newer one is larger plastic instead of metal and will probably work a little better if its packed with snow or tries to freeze up, but hopefully you'll avoid that from taking place. I think the woodland one buttons its layers whereas the ACU pattern one has internal zippers, which is probably slightly better in some ways, but not important enough a consideration to me. I'm just going off of memory, and there may be another difference or two, but nothing really stands out to me.

Like reubinski, I much prefer woodland camo and OCP/multi-cam in just about any environment to the ACU pattern.

I have not slept in one of the USMC ones with a bug net. So, can't help you there, but a bug net's a good idea, imo. Of the two I have slept in, the 4 piece woodland and 5 piece ACU Army issued MSS's, I prefer the woodland one, due to the camo pattern alone. I still have one of each at home, for me and company. I don't care enough to prefer sleeping in one or the other unless there's some tactical reason. The 5 piece system has an extra stuff sack so you can compress a single bag a little better if you don't want to take the whole system.
 
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#48
Have not posted in forever but figured id throw something up, I have gone with what alot have said and pack a mat almost always. I am still using the treeline bag and its been working fine, getting a compression bag to try and get it below 4L of space in my pack. I still use the snugpack bivi over the MSS bivi much smaller and serve the same purpose. The wiggi and kifaru bags are also really nice. But their weight and size is the same as my current bag but with the same temp rating. So if i ever need to swap my bag out i might go with one of them, but for the foreseeable future ill be using the treeline, endless i get moved to North Carolina i might need a warmer bag... Appreciate the advice gents.
 
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#49
ker2222 said:
+100. Wiggys is solid gear. Better than the mil mss By far. . It’s not cheap nor necessarily lightweight but it is absolutely awesome. And I can pack even the 0 degree bag into its
Compression sack and tHe weight and size is tolerable.
Click to expand...
Just recertified my Wiggys bag. We went out for the 2 nite caribou hunt. Slept in my friends enclosed trailer. It was about 20 deg F when we went to bed. About midnite it got cold enough that the propane Big Buddy shut itself down. When I woke up in the morning, my buddy was in the truck and it was 3 deg F. I was warm, my damp clothes had dried out in the foot of the bag and there was ice on the outside where my breath had exited the bag. All I was wearing was my Minus T33 merino base layer and a hat (to keep my nose warm).

2 weeks before we had been out chasing the caribou and ended up spending the night out without bags. It had been raining and we were sweated our from the climb to get to the herd. We pitched a poncho and covered the ground with spruce boughs we cut and threw another tarp over that. It hit 33deg F that nite. We didn’t sleep much and the caribou were gone when we woke up. Wish I’d had my bag!
 
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