SOCOM To Replace 7.62 NATO Sniper Platforms with 6.5s
- Thread starter vh20
- Start date
Is 6.5 a waste of money for our guys?
Maybe they can get the funds out of the transgender awareness budget.
Certain spec-op units have been using the 260 Remington for awhile, and then some of them picked up the creedmore and have been using it. Started out bolt gunners were using the 260, gas gunners the creedmoore when he (a former ranger now) worked with two different sf units. At the time, the 260 had a velocity edge over the creedmoore. Neither unit wanted to stop using "their" caliber and switch to the other.
Might be curiousier to ponder why, in suppressor wars topics, one of those tested cans (not available to the public consumers) was a 6.5 and a former sfod-d member was once part of that company. Interesting pondering. But "connected"..
Might be curiousier to ponder why, in suppressor wars topics, one of those tested cans (not available to the public consumers) was a 6.5 and a former sfod-d member was once part of that company. Interesting pondering. But "connected"..
Didn't the euros know 6.5 was the way to go like 100 years ago
Not too surprised, but am concerned that it will make it that much harder to buy 6.5 Creedmoor ammo.
Discounting the market effects of panicky civilians, when was the last time 5.56, 223rem, 7.62, or 308win was difficult to purchase?
Yes the 6.5x55 has been around since the 1890s, does everything the new fancy 6.5 Creedmoor does, and then a bit more.
But apparently the new 6.5mm variants are like 1/4th inch shorter which makes them so much more "modern" and "better"
You can take a 100 year old Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55, and pop in the Lapua 120 and 123 gr rounds getting out of there at 3000+ FPS
When I originally read this, I think it was another article, but they made it sound like they were ditching the 7.62 entirely across the board. I was picturing a minigun blasting out SMKs or hybrids at $3000 a minute
Oh I thought it was cool too. I was more referring to the fact that they dumped all this R&D into it for years and then just scrapped it in 5 minutes
I'm surprised the marine corps hasn't gone this route yet. Would probably benefit from this more than anyone using S/A. Just swap the barrel and rock on.
Where exactly is the 30-06 still used in the military?
Where exactly is the 30-06 still used in the military?
The MC just finished fitting out their sniper rifles to 7.62 from 30 06, the Navy dont give them that much money to be switching out calibers every 80 years, they have Navy Seals to spend money on, you know sun Glasses, Writing classes, Gaming contracts, etc etc. Sorry but the USMC will have to make due with all the 7.62 the Army will hand down to them.
J/K there my pleather necked friends, dont get your kotexes all wadded in your pussies..
J/K there my pleather necked friends, dont get your kotexes all wadded in your pussies..
in some types of terrain, not good in the type of terrain we been fighting in over the past 17 years, range is more important then volume, I am also in a camp that feels its better to kill yor target in the least amount of hits, lot of valid points on both sides I just all into the camp that more energy and mass kills more effectively and quickly.
6.5 Grendel is a good round that would still work in the AR platform. But if it was me I'd neck the 6.5 grendel down to a 6 as a 6mm AR/Grendel or something similar and still have more punch than the 5.56.
It's often piqued my curiosity how the 30-06 marched across Europe and twice liberated it, and in a generation became too large and impractical.
I agree with the above statement. There are many levels of wounded. Only 1 level of dead.
The MC just finished fitting out their sniper rifles to 7.62 from 30 06, the Navy dont give them that much money to be switching out calibers every 80 years, they have Navy Seals to spend money on, you know sun Glasses, Writing classes, Gaming contracts, etc etc. Sorry but the USMC will have to make due with all the 7.62 the Army will hand down to them.
Not sure if this was some attempt at humor, mixed with some factual exchange?
The USMC will be running:
- M110 (both a mix of the original KAC M110 and the new H&K M110A1), both are .308/7.62
- Mk13 Mod 7 in .300 WM will replace the current M40A6 in .308/7.62
NO one is running a 30-06 based anything!
It has only taken the Military 50+ years, and several major conflicts, to figure out that a .223/5.56 and a .308/7.62, are not enough to get the job done!
Now they are finally realizing that there needs to be "more tools in the tool box". Unfortunately, a box full of tools that are not really what you need for the job, and not what anyone really knows how to use, are pretty much worthless! I am glad to see the move beyond .223/5.56 and a .308/7.62, but in true military fashion, which makes military intelligence an oxymoron, the jury is still out on how well this will all go?
"Low End"
.223/5.56 – you can't hunt anything but varmints in most states with a .223/5.56. yet it is supposed to be effective at stopping the enemies of this country? A lot of people have forgotten about the 6.8 SPC, and what it represented. Now days, whether you want to talk .224 Valkyrie, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, they all significantly outperform the current .223/5.56. Will that change the M4 caliber, NO! A change based on that scale will never happen IMHO, whether it is really needed or not.
“Middle of the Road”
.260 or 6.5 Creedmoor – great performer and a much-needed addition. Contrary to many debates, the winner will be picked based on anything other than which one "performs best" (they perform equal). As of now, it looks like that will be the 6.5 Creedmoor with the M110A1. This will greatly enhance the capability/performance of the M110 family of rifles.
.308/7.62 – for now, it will always have a home because of its use in the MG family. It is a “ballistic dog”, so it needs to go the way of the Dodo Bird when it comes to anything else. Like the M4 and .223/5.56, I can’t see a change to the MG Family happening based on the scale of everything that would go into it.
“Magnums”
Make room, because this area is starting to get real crowded!
.300WM – a step up, but unfortunately this round will probably never go away because it is a “true Red, White, and Blue creation”. There are plenty of other rounds that can “do the job better”, but with the M2010 and Mk13 Mod 7, it will not be going anywhere anytime soon.
.300 NM – Phenomenal round! SOCOM has figured it out, but I am not sure that anyone else will? With the SOCOM ASR program, this one will hopefully stick around, and gain in popularity.
.338 LM or .338 NM – Nice to have a .338 in the stable, but IMHO the question is, “do you need a .338 magnum, when you have a .300 NM”? The PSR/MSR utilized the LM, but the ASR is calling for the use of the NM. So do you go with NATO and the LM, or do you go with the NM? Answer, who has the best connections inside of the community!
“Big Boomers”
.50 BMG – will always be around once again because of the MG family, but does it really have a place in the sniper role? It can have a “niche role”, but does the application in the real world really work out?
.375 – not really on the official DOD radar screen yet, but if you look at what the Applied Ballistics crew is doing, it will probably only be a matter of time IMHO!
Apologies for the sidetrack, but this is in response to the “who’s who” of rounds being discussed.
Now they are finally realizing that there needs to be "more tools in the tool box". Unfortunately, a box full of tools that are not really what you need for the job, and not what anyone really knows how to use, are pretty much worthless! I am glad to see the move beyond .223/5.56 and a .308/7.62, but in true military fashion, which makes military intelligence an oxymoron, the jury is still out on how well this will all go?
"Low End"
.223/5.56 – you can't hunt anything but varmints in most states with a .223/5.56. yet it is supposed to be effective at stopping the enemies of this country? A lot of people have forgotten about the 6.8 SPC, and what it represented. Now days, whether you want to talk .224 Valkyrie, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, they all significantly outperform the current .223/5.56. Will that change the M4 caliber, NO! A change based on that scale will never happen IMHO, whether it is really needed or not.
“Middle of the Road”
.260 or 6.5 Creedmoor – great performer and a much-needed addition. Contrary to many debates, the winner will be picked based on anything other than which one "performs best" (they perform equal). As of now, it looks like that will be the 6.5 Creedmoor with the M110A1. This will greatly enhance the capability/performance of the M110 family of rifles.
.308/7.62 – for now, it will always have a home because of its use in the MG family. It is a “ballistic dog”, so it needs to go the way of the Dodo Bird when it comes to anything else. Like the M4 and .223/5.56, I can’t see a change to the MG Family happening based on the scale of everything that would go into it.
“Magnums”
Make room, because this area is starting to get real crowded!
.300WM – a step up, but unfortunately this round will probably never go away because it is a “true Red, White, and Blue creation”. There are plenty of other rounds that can “do the job better”, but with the M2010 and Mk13 Mod 7, it will not be going anywhere anytime soon.
.300 NM – Phenomenal round! SOCOM has figured it out, but I am not sure that anyone else will? With the SOCOM ASR program, this one will hopefully stick around, and gain in popularity.
.338 LM or .338 NM – Nice to have a .338 in the stable, but IMHO the question is, “do you need a .338 magnum, when you have a .300 NM”? The PSR/MSR utilized the LM, but the ASR is calling for the use of the NM. So do you go with NATO and the LM, or do you go with the NM? Answer, who has the best connections inside of the community!
“Big Boomers”
.50 BMG – will always be around once again because of the MG family, but does it really have a place in the sniper role? It can have a “niche role”, but does the application in the real world really work out?
.375 – not really on the official DOD radar screen yet, but if you look at what the Applied Ballistics crew is doing, it will probably only be a matter of time IMHO!
Apologies for the sidetrack, but this is in response to the “who’s who” of rounds being discussed.
Not sure it really matters, barrels are commodities, to be replaced whenever needed.
I think the real kicker is the logistics of switching rounds. Not just the supply flow issues, but also the range safety certifications. It's a very big deal and very costly to redo all those certifications.
I think the real kicker is the logistics of switching rounds. Not just the supply flow issues, but also the range safety certifications. It's a very big deal and very costly to redo all those certifications.
Gotta love that the military decides what rounds they should use based on range certifications! This is honestly not the first time that I have heard that argument.
Good to know that we have our troops on bases where the ranges are limited! Billions of acres in this country, and the Govt has no problem taking control of land, but we don't have the necessary acreage to train the troops as needed.
Most people would probably fall out of their chairs if they knew that the primary range at US Army Sniper School is limited to 1,000 yards! (and there has been talk of reducing that depending on what is being shot there!)
There are many good reasons why I am no longer serving in the Military!
hlee is correct, in this case it was morbid humor, our Mil is slow to adapt new and better rounds . always has been but our Marines are woefully underfunded in this area, referencing back to the discussions of a few years ago about them not getting the 300 wm made readily available to them as standard sniper issue. I might have my issues and their bullshit but they are still on my team and I want them equipped better than they are now.
Just some comments...
I borrowed a Swedish 1941B for Vintage Sniper silhouette, with 140hybrids going 2650 fps, it was like cheating concerning wind deflection compared to 308's or anything else anyone was using, I won the only two times I used it, once overall and once in VS division.
Follow the money and good ole American pride. The powers that be had to have 30 cal and the bean counters wanted less powder, and raw material consumption/brass, I think barrel life was the cherry on top, wallah 308 was born. Just my opinion so I'm not saying this is 100% true...
The way it should have been - actually researching what caliber, case capacity and cases head size would be the best compromise. They couldn't have done much worse by picking both 308 and 223!!! I own both those, they are what they are, but...
American pride - how about the 1/4 bore, case using 34-35 grains of powder, a 135 grainer with a .65BC at 2750 or so. Moderate compromise but good for almost everything a medium sized case can be expected to do.
Of course not...
I borrowed a Swedish 1941B for Vintage Sniper silhouette, with 140hybrids going 2650 fps, it was like cheating concerning wind deflection compared to 308's or anything else anyone was using, I won the only two times I used it, once overall and once in VS division.
Follow the money and good ole American pride. The powers that be had to have 30 cal and the bean counters wanted less powder, and raw material consumption/brass, I think barrel life was the cherry on top, wallah 308 was born. Just my opinion so I'm not saying this is 100% true...
The way it should have been - actually researching what caliber, case capacity and cases head size would be the best compromise. They couldn't have done much worse by picking both 308 and 223!!! I own both those, they are what they are, but...
American pride - how about the 1/4 bore, case using 34-35 grains of powder, a 135 grainer with a .65BC at 2750 or so. Moderate compromise but good for almost everything a medium sized case can be expected to do.
Of course not...
It's funny that all the years I thought the 'A-2 was a move in the right direction. At normal combat distances, the 'A-1 really has it beat. And, it's lighter so you can carry a lot more of those little death pills
The 6.5's are good for getting reach, with enough killing power, well past what the 7.62 will do. Of course, if we hadn't done something stupid like kill all ballistically superior 7.62 bullets in the 1920's, it might have made a better showing. But, the proof is finally in the pudding, that those taking it (6.5) into harms way have shown it has more capapability than what we have.
Going back to the 30-06 would be a mistake without pushing a super high BC bullet. Same with the .300 WM. Those in power keep saying that more power was the answer when really what was needed was more efficiency.
The 6.5's are good for getting reach, with enough killing power, well past what the 7.62 will do. Of course, if we hadn't done something stupid like kill all ballistically superior 7.62 bullets in the 1920's, it might have made a better showing. But, the proof is finally in the pudding, that those taking it (6.5) into harms way have shown it has more capapability than what we have.
Going back to the 30-06 would be a mistake without pushing a super high BC bullet. Same with the .300 WM. Those in power keep saying that more power was the answer when really what was needed was more efficiency.
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